Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ??

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S-10
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 11:14:01 (permalink)
Is it just "rifle deer" on "Sundays" in this case. If so, can we not move forward elsewhere in areas were the social affects would be minimal?

< Message edited by dpms -- 3/5/2012 10:46:21 AM >



I'am old enough to have seen the old "get our foot in the door" routine many times before. Crossbows come immediately to mind. The landowners say no and many hunters say no. Lets just agree to disagree. It will come up again and perhaps game populations will be allowed to increase and landowners will have a change of heart in the meantime.

Putting more pressure on a already diminishing game population will "never" lead to long term satisfaction or retention of hunters. Satisfaction in any sport comes from having a fair amount of success not from having more time to fail. You don't need a license or weapon to enjoy the birds and flowers.
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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 11:28:50 (permalink)
Ok. I will agree.......................................
 
 
 
That you prefer a position that weakens our foundation down the road.

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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 11:32:16 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: TastyTrout

I'm just hoping those people complaining about not seeing game are actually putting the time in the woods to justify seeing a bunch of animals.


That is a big part of the equation. It is easy to just say, not enough game as a reason why someone doesn't hunt as much any longer. That way, the blame is put somewhere else.

I primarily hunt 2B and 2A. Game populations, in general remain good. I hear the same excuse frequently from folks that used to hunt the same areas that I do. 

There just isn't the passion that there used to be for hunting. That is a much bigger problem moving forward for us as hunters than any regulatory change could make.




"good" is open to debate. But clearly DECLINING as even you have attested to and voiced concern. Troubling when further reductions are the sole reason pgc wants sunday hunting in the first place, and is the reason why I dont support it currently.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 11:44:12 (permalink)
It is fair for me to say that you support legislative involvement in game management or regulation when it paralells your position?


For ME thats a big YEP.


Audubon isnt adverse to going the legislative route to get what they want. Neither are the other "greenies" who have become so influential over our game management & even "our" gamelands . Antis arent afraid of going the legislative route( or attempt to, since most dont take them serious anyway), and the industries such as the state timber industry, farm bureau etc. have no qualms about going the legislative routes to get what they want.

As hunters, for us not to do the same when we feel we are being "wronged" would be completely asnine and like trying to fight in a gunfight with a badminton racket against some of these other folks.

In a perfect world I would oppose legislative involvement. But this is FAR from a perfect world/system.

As for the bill, When this one came out then the hearings were scheduled etc., Staback said it likely wouldnt be revisited to such an extent as it was being this time...with the hearings and real surging "push" from legislators and others for some time, and previously was the time to let our thoughts known. Hopefully he was correct and we have enough time to right some of our wrongs before revisiting. Another repetitive "bill" at this point would be completely meaningless so not real concerned with that.
post edited by wayne c - 2012/03/05 11:59:45
#34
dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:13:20 (permalink)
Man, Wayne, I thought you decided to leave us. 
 
Anyway, any thoughts on the possible lawsuit in the works that challenges the constitutionality of the current blue law. 

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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:15:37 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c
Troubling when further reductions are the sole reason pgc wants sunday hunting in the first place, and is the reason why I dont support it currently.

 
Speculation, or did a commissioner express to you that the BOC supports HB1760 solely to reduce the herd further?

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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:18:22 (permalink)
This bill may be dead, but the SH issue is far from being dead.  It will only be a matter of time until another bill is drafted to take its place, which will be an annual process until one of the bills make it through.  I would be very surprised if some form of expanded SH is not here within the next 5 years. 
 
I am still waiting for the sky to fall since I shot a buck on a Sunday in Ohio this year... 
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:26:09 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: dpms

Man, Wayne, I thought you decided to leave us. 

Anyway, any thoughts on the possible lawsuit in the works that challenges the constitutionality of the current blue law. 



I saw that mentioned elsewhere, and I think its comical. Especially when you consider who it is that brought it up. Known antideer factions. BIGTIME. Wonder why they want it? Oh yeah, to right the consitutional wrongs! lol.

Of course they didnt seem to understand that we already have "some" sunday hunting, and that pretty much voids any chance of "constitutionality" whinings based on religion being supportable.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:28:24 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: wayne c
Troubling when further reductions are the sole reason pgc wants sunday hunting in the first place, and is the reason why I dont support it currently.


Speculation, or did a commissioner express to you that the BOC supports HB1760 solely to reduce the herd further?


I know exactly why they want it. Ive followed these things (deer nonsense & pgc) far too closely for far too long not to. Though if you would like to base your own differing views on your own knowledge of the past decade plus, please feel free to do so.

As for commissioners, Ive seen one lie too many from them. Dont have much use for most of their in-put.
post edited by wayne c - 2012/03/05 12:30:12
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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:30:20 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c

I know exactly why they want it.

 
So, speculation then.

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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:31:46 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

This bill may be dead, but the SH issue is far from being dead.  It will only be a matter of time until another bill is drafted to take its place, which will be an annual process until one of the bills make it through.  I would be very surprised if some form of expanded SH is not here within the next 5 years.  



Pretty much how it wil play out.  Eventually the PFB will need something from the general assembly. Our beloved politicians who only care about keeping their jobs, will ask the PFB to support some kind of SH bill in exchange for votes that benefit the PFB in some way. 
 
Added.... If the PFB was keen to this, now would be a ripe time to make things happen in a big way for them.
post edited by dpms - 2012/03/05 12:35:18

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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:38:36 (permalink)
This bill may be dead, but the SH issue is far from being dead. It will only be a matter of time until another bill is drafted to take its place, which will be an annual process until one of the bills make it through.


Unless its backed like it was this time, and by MORE folks, its a complete nonissue. There are lots of bills that arise that wont go anywhere.


I am still waiting for the sky to fall since I shot a buck on a Sunday in Ohio this year...


Ive hunted sundays in other states many times. No sky falling. Then again, they dont have antideer environmentalists shelling out nearly 2 million deer tags to 700-900k hunters. The sky is a little lower today than it was 12 years ago even without adding more yet to the slaughter.

Then again on the other hand, there is quite a bit of posted land everywhere in ohio that ive hunted. Was that due to sunday hunting and "the sky falling"? There is just as much "proof" saying it was, as there is that says it wasnt.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:40:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: wayne c

I know exactly why they want it.


So, speculation then.


But based in fact.

Whereas your position that all will be rosey is PURELY speculation. And completely unbased.
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S-10
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:42:31 (permalink)
The primary sponsor of the bill, majority Chairman state Rep. John R. Evans, R-Erie/Crawford, said farmers who use Red Tags, or crop damage permits for killing deer are hypocritical in their opposition of Sunday hunting.

“Do you understand how some people would question the fact we’re hearing two different stories here?” he asked Rotz. “You’ve said the deer are a problem and crop damage is a problem, yet you’re asking the legislature to not allow more hunting.”

That sure sounds like they expect to kill more deer and also that the issue is deer hunting.
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draketrutta
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:45:22 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: S-10

There are fewer than 25,000 crow hunters in Pa.



How do you know this?

just curious,,, am I counted in that number, and if so, how did they know I hunt crows?

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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:46:43 (permalink)
Pretty much how it wil play out. Eventually the PFB will need something from the general assembly. Our beloved politicians who only care about keeping their jobs, will ask the PFB to support some kind of SH bill in exchange for votes that benefit the PFB in some way.


So why would the general assembly be pushing so hard to "deal" in this instance? Why do they want sunday hunting so badly, when even many hunters ourselves dont want it, what is the reason for their desparation? What do they gain with sunday hunting?...Oh thats right. Dcnr wants the deer dead! Sorry, I forgot for a moment.


Added.... If the PFB was keen to this, now would be a ripe time to make things happen in a big way for them.


Wow. Seems your "rooting" for those bad legislators to help you get what you want? Not sure why you feel its ok for some "other" interest group to hold all of the say in this matter? If farm bureau says yes... its yes. When the hunters, non farmbureau landowners and everyone else would have no say at all??

Geesh. That kind of special interest catering sounds exactly like the rest of the deer plan don't it?

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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:47:08 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c

But based in fact.

 
And what fact is that? Just that you know that the BOC wants Sunday hunting for the "sole" purpose of further repleting the herd.

Whereas your position that all will be rosey is PURELY speculation. And completely unbased.

 
Not sure I have a position on what the BOC plans to do? Some members have said that they would proceed slowly. That is all that I am aware of.

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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:49:01 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: S-10

The primary sponsor of the bill, majority Chairman state Rep. John R. Evans, R-Erie/Crawford, said farmers who use Red Tags, or crop damage permits for killing deer are hypocritical in their opposition of Sunday hunting.

“Do you understand how some people would question the fact we’re hearing two different stories here?” he asked Rotz. “You’ve said the deer are a problem and crop damage is a problem, yet you’re asking the legislature to not allow more hunting.”

That sure sounds like they expect to kill more deer and also that the issue is deer hunting.


Good point! I also find it interesting that neither of the most vocal proponents of this latest sunday surge (staback & evans) are seeing re-election.
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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:49:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c

Geesh. That kind of special interest catering sounds exactly like the rest of the deer plan don't it?


 
Just politics as usual. Not much I or you can do about it. I don't like it if it makes you feel better.

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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:49:57 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: draketrutta


ORIGINAL: S-10

There are fewer than 25,000 crow hunters in Pa.



How do you know this?

just curious,,, am I counted in that number, and if so, how did they know I hunt crows?


 
 
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=631768&mode=2
 
 
I would imagine that the numbers are based on survey data. 
 
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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:52:31 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

The primary sponsor of the bill, majority Chairman state Rep. John R. Evans, R-Erie/Crawford, said farmers who use Red Tags, or crop damage permits for killing deer are hypocritical in their opposition of Sunday hunting.

“Do you understand how some people would question the fact we’re hearing two different stories here?” he asked Rotz. “You’ve said the deer are a problem and crop damage is a problem, yet you’re asking the legislature to not allow more hunting.”

That sure sounds like they expect to kill more deer and also that the issue is deer hunting.


I think the point he was trying to make, if I remember it correctly, was the PFB stating that they did not want more hunters on their lands but asked and received special previledges before that required more hunters on their lands.  
post edited by dpms - 2012/03/05 12:54:17

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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:55:19 (permalink)
And what fact is that? Just that you know that the BOC wants Sunday hunting for the "sole" purpose of further repleting the herd.


I know the bocs voting history in regards to deer management now and for the last decade +. I know dcnr said straight out that they would like to see sunday hunting to help with the deer harvesting, along with several other things, with each and every one had been explored shortly thereafter. I know thoughts on some upper pgc staff on the "deer issues". And I undersand the board is nothing but a politically appointed stacked for political purposes by legislators & governor advisory farce. Expgc board members have also said they wanted sunday for DEER management purposes. Understandably not a popular stance with hunters, and reason why current like minded board members try to avoid that "connection" in most discussions.

Not sure I have a position on what the BOC plans to do? Some members have said that they would proceed slowly. That is all that I am aware of.


Sorry, but I really am not interested in them playing games. Ideally, Id like to see sunday hunting implemented across the board PERIOD. As it should be. Just another day. And expect the season length or allocations adjusted as need be. But I realize thats not going to happen, or at the very least cant trust them that it will. Even you yourself have stated disapproval of allocations & further herd declines that have been ongoing, and thats even BEFORE we add even more to it.

There is zero to be gained by hollow promises of "going slow". Basically within the first couple years, thereafter that hollow promise would be completely meaningless. Kind of like the absurd and utterly ridiculous "grandfather clause" they through in with the crossbow inclusion. That was rather insulting to the intelligence of myself and shouldve been to any other 'Pa hunter' as I see it.

Based on this and more, I cannot support sunday hunting currently.

post edited by wayne c - 2012/03/05 13:11:27
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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:58:03 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c
 Even you yourself have stated disapproval of allocations & further herd declines that have been ongoing, and thats even BEFORE we add even more to it.


 
I have, but that fact will not interfere with my support of game agencies staffed by hunters, by in large, being solely tasked with regulating hunting.
 
You see the crap in California going on right now?

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TastyTrout
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 12:59:48 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

ORIGINAL: draketrutta


ORIGINAL: S-10

There are fewer than 25,000 crow hunters in Pa.



How do you know this?

just curious,,, am I counted in that number, and if so, how did they know I hunt crows?




http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=631768&mode=2


I would imagine that the numbers are based on survey data. 



That's how it has to be done.

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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 13:05:34 (permalink)
I have, but that fact will not interfere with my support of game agencies staffed by hunters,


I dont buy it. Sorry. Other interests are largely at work here. If some "buy" a license as an afterthought, more power to 'em. I am not open to the possibility of them being a "hunter friendly" bunch when I know better. And their actions speak alot louder than hollow words. And last I checked hunter "voice" has been constantly diminished intentionally over the last decade plus. Not the actions of a "hunter friendly" crew, and this isnt even debatable. At least with me it isnt.

by in large, being solely tasked with regulating hunting.


No. Thats also up to the politically appointed board. A board with regularly plenty of connection to farm bureau, timber, and environmentalism. Conservancies etc.


You see the crap in California going on right now?


Yes. But nothing new for those whacks out there. Its another world out there. And we have enough of our own problems to worry about as opposed to those that are unlikely to ever be the case here anytime into the not too distant future. And if was a concern (which is isnt) then in that case having less game... The #1 reason hunters quit buying licenses according to the pgc survey...is going to only expedite the erosion to our hunter ranks.

post edited by wayne c - 2012/03/05 13:09:04
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S-10
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 13:17:34 (permalink)
quote:

ORIGINAL: S-10

There are fewer than 25,000 crow hunters in Pa.


How do you know this?

just curious,,, am I counted in that number, and if so, how did they know I hunt crows?



The PGC has estimated numbers of hunters for most game species from 1990 forward. the crow hunter numbers have dropped about 35% in that time period. It's taken from their various surveys.
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TastyTrout
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 13:18:10 (permalink)
How many days a year do you guys get out hunting and are you for or against Sunday hunting? I'm just wondering the number for/against it vs. the number of days a year you hunt. It might be for the wrong reason but the number 1 reason I'm for Sunday hunting is due to the fact it would literally double the amount of days a year I can hunt (Saturday and Sunday's only).

For someone who can get out during the week throughout the season I would see why Sunday hunting wouldn't be such an important thing for you....then again I'm only looking at the number of times a year spent in the woods as my deciding factor.
post edited by TastyTrout - 2012/03/05 13:19:31

Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.
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S-10
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 13:30:13 (permalink)
I have, but that fact will not interfere with my support of game agencies staffed by hunters


How many of the PGC employees actually buy a license and hunt "every" year?
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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 13:42:06 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c


Yes. But nothing new for those whacks out there. Its another world out there.

 
It is another world that is not as distant as it used to be. You see projections for demographics in the future?  Those "whacks", as you put it, are what we have to look forward to. 
 
  

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dpms
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RE: Sunday Hunting = DEAD = ?? 2012/03/05 13:44:13 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10
How many of the PGC employees actually buy a license and hunt "every" year?

 
For those that are tasked with setting regulation, 100% purchase but not sure how much each hunt and for what species.

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