RSB
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/28 21:53:49
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ORIGINAL: S-10
If it were possible to high grade it would have already happened during the five decades we protected only bucks that didn’t even have a 3-inch spike.
R.S. Bodenhorn
Of course you realize you just admitted that there was no biological reason that we needed a older age class of deer doing the breeding because the 1-1/2 year old bucks could do everything the older bucks could do. AR is strictly a social issue and as long as a majority want it that is probably the thing to do but don't confuse it with a biological necessity because you just admitted it isn't.
No we didn’t and don’t need an older age class of bucks to maximize the breeding rates and success. We just needed more adult bucks in the fall population than the prior year’s button bucks was able to provide. Do you have another way of getting more adults in the fall population besides keeping more of the adults alive through the prior fall hunting seasons? No, I didn’t think so. And, you are also very much wrong about it simply being a social issue. That is just a red herring argument used by those that either don’t like it for personal reasons or aren’t knowledgeable enough about deer management to understand the value of having a correct buck/doe ratio. R.S. Bodenhorn
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/28 22:03:23
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you are also very much wrong about it simply being a social issue. That is just a red herring argument used Yeah, someone is throwing out red herrings allright.   You change and twist your stories so fast it's hard to keep up with. More of that ounce of truth in a basket of BS. I've shown where the data is and what our neighbors say, lets allow the rest of the folks make the decision who the red herring is. I'am done for tonight.
post edited by S-10 - 2012/01/28 22:04:02
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RSB
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/28 22:05:06
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ORIGINAL: S-10
They better change their charts if that is the case. They not only state the breeding window didn't change they have also posted a chart showing that just the opposite of what you claim has taken place since AR. There are fewer doe being bred in the tight window and more on the ends of the curve. If anything the breeding window has gotten worse. Nice try but I know how to read and understand words and charts and what you are claiming is just the opposite of what the PGC's own biologists are saying and what their posted charts show.-------------Go on the net- type in "Biology and Hunting-Antler Restriction" click on open on the bottom, read the words and chart, note the red in the graph is after AR.
There is no Biological reason for Antler Restrictions. It is strictly a social issue. If the majority want it then it should be done on that basis not on the basis of something you know isn't supported by research and your claim is not supported by research.
If the chart you were looking at from both before and since antler restrictions showed the difference between the adult and juvenile doe breeding window you would be able to see the major difference. The does outside the narrow breeding window now are the juvenile does, many of which were not being bred at all before antler restrictions. Most of those are just a bonus that didn’t even exist before antler restrictions put enough bucks into the population to get them bred. Before antler restrictions it was taking over five months just to get the adult does bred, now they are almost all being bred in less than six weeks. That is a MAJOR improvement for the future for both deer and deer hunters even if the chart doesn’t make it obvious. I guess that is the benefit of having access to the whole story instead of just the little bit you look at. R.S. Bodenhorn
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RSB
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/28 22:10:32
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ORIGINAL: S-10
demand carrying excess deer through the winter, which simply means they end with lower fawn recruitment than we should be getting and that then also means you have fewer deer to harvest the next fall.
That must be why we harvested 203,247 bucks in 2001 and 122,930 last year.
Comparing harvests of 2001 when hunters could shoo the first deer they saw with even a hint of an antler to recent years when half of the 1 ½ year old bucks aren’t even legal and those that are legal require a person to study them to see if they have enough points is really just another red herring argument. Anyone being even the least bit honest and honorable would certainly expect the buck harvest to be lower now than before antler restrictions, even if no herd reduction had occurred. R.S. Bodenhorn
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RSB
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/28 22:20:39
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ORIGINAL: S-10
you are also very much wrong about it simply being a social issue. That is just a red herring argument used
Yeah, someone is throwing out red herrings allright. You change and twist your stories so fast it's hard to keep up with. More of that ounce of truth in a basket of BS. I've shown where the data is and what our neighbors say, lets allow the rest of the folks make the decision who the red herring is. I'am done for tonight.
No red herrings on my part. All I can do is post the facts. I know some people refuse to accept them because they don’t fit their agendas or isn’t what they want to believe. A few others simply aren’t wildlife management knowledgeable enough to comprehend the facts the deer provide. But, none of those personal problems or issues change the validity and value of the facts the deer themselves provided. As for New York, I have no idea what their deer are telling people about their past or present management. That is something for New York’s managers to deal with. But, we are not in New York or using New York deer to make management decisions in Pennsylvania so that is once again just another red herring argument for you to use in your misguided agenda. R.S. Bodenhorn
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wayne c
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/28 23:28:48
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Anyone being even the least bit honest and honorable would certainly expect the buck harvest to be lower now than before antler restrictions, even if no herd reduction had occurred. No. Other than slight loss due to mortality or the very few bucks that never become ar legal. Other than those insignificant numbers, your flat out wrong, because at some point after the very first year of being saved, the huge majority of bucks become legal at some point. Thats exactly why Alt said the harvest would decline the first year of ar, but then would be a more "normal" harvest thereafter. But what he didnt mention was the harvests wouldnt rebound because we were in herd reductions mode at the same time!
post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/28 23:29:18
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wayne c
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/28 23:30:57
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But, we are not in New York or using New York deer to make management decisions Thats for sure. We stand alone. Like NO OTHER with our wildflower & sapling based management plan. lmao. Bizarre and extreme by just about any other comparison. 
post edited by wayne c - 2012/01/28 23:31:45
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 09:14:33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S-10
quote:
demand carrying excess deer through the winter, which simply means they end with lower fawn recruitment than we should be getting and that then also means you have fewer deer to harvest the next fall.
That must be why we harvested 203,247 bucks in 2001 and 122,930 last year.
Comparing harvests of 2001 when hunters could shoo the first deer they saw with even a hint of an antler to recent years when half of the 1 ½ year old bucks aren’t even legal and those that are legal require a person to study them to see if they have enough points is really just another red herring argument.
Anyone being even the least bit honest and honorable would certainly expect the buck harvest to be lower now than before antler restrictions, even if no herd reduction had occurred.
R.S. Bodenhorn The PGC states that between the end of one years deer season and the start of the next we lose 10% of the surviving deer to other causes. Any PGC employee being honest and honorable would not try to BS us into believing that a 40% reduction in buck harvest would have happened if Herd Reducion had not occurred. In fact, if herd reduction had not ocurred with the corresponding additional BB kill we would be harvesting more 2-1/2 yo bucks, than our total buck kill of the pre AR years, after the first year of AR. Now that would have been something to see.
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 09:52:05
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S-10
They better change their charts if that is the case. They not only state the breeding window didn't change they have also posted a chart showing that just the opposite of what you claim has taken place since AR. There are fewer doe being bred in the tight window and more on the ends of the curve. If anything the breeding window has gotten worse. Nice try but I know how to read and understand words and charts and what you are claiming is just the opposite of what the PGC's own biologists are saying and what their posted charts show.-------------Go on the net- type in "Biology and Hunting-Antler Restriction" click on open on the bottom, read the words and chart, note the red in the graph is after AR.
There is no Biological reason for Antler Restrictions. It is strictly a social issue. If the majority want it then it should be done on that basis not on the basis of something you know isn't supported by research and your claim is not supported by research.
If the chart you were looking at from both before and since antler restrictions showed the difference between the adult and juvenile doe breeding window you would be able to see the major difference.
The does outside the narrow breeding window now are the juvenile does, many of which were not being bred at all before antler restrictions. Most of those are just a bonus that didn’t even exist before antler restrictions put enough bucks into the population to get them bred.
Before antler restrictions it was taking over five months just to get the adult does bred, now they are almost all being bred in less than six weeks.
That is a MAJOR improvement for the future for both deer and deer hunters even if the chart doesn’t make it obvious. I guess that is the benefit of having access to the whole story instead of just the little bit you look at.
R.S. Bodenhorn That claim is nothing but one man trying to revise the history of the issue. 1. The chart clearly shows there is NO DIFFERENCE in the breeding timeframe. 2. The PGC Biologists clearly state there is NO DIFFERENCE in the breeding timeframe. 3. The whole stated biological purpose of AR was to TIGHTEN up the breeding timeframe. 4. The reason was because there was a greater loss of fawns to predators when the breeding timeframe was longer. 5. What has happened is the worse possible case. Over the last 10 years the predators have INCREASED in numbers, The deer numbers have DECREASED as a result of HR, and the breeding timeframe has stayed the same or gotten worse. 6. It doesn't matter if the predators are eating fawns of younger or older mothers, they are still eating fawns and at a higher percentage as a result of HR. There are now a larger percentage of younger doe to give birth and fewer adult does than before HR as a direct result of the PGC spending years telling us to shoot the larger doe. It is just another way to reduce the deer herd at a faster rate.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 10:37:21
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if herd reduction had not ocurred with the corresponding additional BB kill And just where is this coming from... ???? I believe every single person on this board realizes and has experienced the fact we have less deer now than before herd reduction... both the antlered and antlerless harvest figures back that up... so with less deer getting killed every year and the percentage of button bucks in the antlerless harvest not changing very much where are you getting this increase in button buck harvest ????? If you are kill less antlerless deer and the percentage of BBs in that harvest does not change much (increase) how can we be killing MORE ("additional") BBs ???? antlerless harvest 2002 = 352,113 antlerless harvest 2010 = 193,310 last year the percentage of BBs in the harvest was 23%, so that fact alone shows we harvested LESS BBs last year than at the start of herd reductions.. Part of the reasoning for concurrent seasons was also to give hunters additional days to hunt antlerless deer and thus have more time to try to determine BBs from females and thus lower the number of BBs killed.. Many of The hunters (not the PGC) in Pa have not taken full advantage of this and the harvest of BBs remains about the same percent of total antlerless killed. We all are smart enough to know that if we kill less BBs there will be more bucks around the following year, but as I keep saying, the majority of Pa deer hunters want to shoot a deer and that is their #1 reason to even be out there hunting... and the fact that the number of BBs in the antlerless harvest has not decreased very much supports that fact... Many Pa deer hunters still want the first legal deer they see for their harvest... and BBs are legal and will always be legal... Do I wish less were killed.. certainly Do I have a problem with a hunter shooting a button buck.. NO, he paid for his license just like I did and has the right to shoot whatever legal deer he wants... What does bother me.. with the PGC listening to the "whiners" and reducing the concurrent seasons it will have one result... less days for those guys to hunt and an increase once again in the BB harvest.. guys (like me) who try HARD to not shoot a BB and wait for another day if not sure will NOT wait I have not shot a button since the concurrent seasons started (total of 14 antlerless killed in that period).. prior to that in the old 3 day season when I had only ONE of those days to hunt .. YEP rather than have no venison I shot the first antlerless I could and a few were BBs.... and I would return to that in a heart beat if I did not have the time (number of days) to be "picky" and as I just said that's Okay in my book a licensed deer hunter has the right to shoot whatever LEGAL deer he wants... I actaully care less waht a deer hunter shoots as long as it is done legally and is a legal deer... to each his own ....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/01/29 13:54:12
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Big Tuna
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 11:01:33
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I'd like to thank the PGC for making the deer herd so wonderful.The last 12 years I've got 12 bucks between 135- 185.Yea in my dreams. Pa. ranks no. in killing doe in the northeast a few more years of thr HR will change that! I love the words of the company man,he's good but his bosses taught him well.
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World Famous
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 11:15:53
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A possibile reason for the doe harvest numbers to be just slightly lower then 2002 is that every year, some hunters,who would normally shoot just bucks and haven't for a few years, take a doe ever couple years just to enjoy some venison and to justify the license cost....WF
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bingsbaits
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 11:24:47
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Geez doc 6 weeks of archery isn't enough time to look for a doe.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 12:52:32
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Doc-- Rather than us arguing go back and read again what RSB posted and what I posted. Think about what I posted in the context of how HR pertains to the AR aspect of increasing bucks. You read it too quickly and didn't think before you started posting. RSB said the buck harvest would be lower now even without herd reduction, that is not true and is the point I was making.
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 12:58:31
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antlerless harvest 2002 = 352,113
antlerless harvest 2010 = 316,240
last year the percentage of BBs in the harvest was 23%, so that fact alone shows we harvested LESS BBs last year than at the start of herd reductions.. You might want to review those numbers again also
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crappiefisher
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 13:30:39
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"Also, those youths participating in the MYHP are required to follow the same antler restrictions as a junior license holder, which is one antler of three or more inches in length or one antler with at least two points" Man the local paper was loaded with young bucks taken from the MYHP this yr. 1/2 the kids looked like they wouldn't be able to lift the gun but many, many ADULT TAGS were used on sm. bucks this season.  crappy
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Dr. Trout
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 13:41:11
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Geez doc 6 weeks of archery isn't enough time to look for a doe. I think if you would take a minute and do some research before you replied ... you would find the VAST majority of Pa deer hunters do NOT archery hunt... thus do not have 6 weeks ... they use rifles. and most only have one or two days of hunting deer..... but of course you already knew that before you posted...
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Dr. Trout
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 13:49:23
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Crappy.. just think maybe because those young ones DID get a deer, even if it was a small buck or doe they may be "hooked" on deer hunting now.. that was the reason for mentored programs... get the youth involved and interested... S-10 wrote = Doc-- Rather than us arguing go back and read again what RSB posted and what I posted. Think about what I posted in the context of how HR pertains to the AR aspect of increasing bucks. You read it too quickly and didn't think before you started posting. RSB said the buck harvest would be lower now even without herd reduction, that is not true and is the point I was making. My reply had NOTHING to do with what RSB wrote, or antler restrictions.. I was correcting your statement about an increase in the number of button bucks being harvested and that just is not true... thus I replied... no arguement == just the facts about button buck harvests NOT increasing since HR....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/01/29 14:09:40
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Dr. Trout
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 13:55:17
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Thanks for pointing out I had posted the entire kill for 2010, not just the doe harvest.. I corrected my post.. thanks... 
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psu_fish
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 14:02:18
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so Doc...does the BB harvest rate come from the reporting of kills 
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Dr. Trout
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 14:03:17
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RSB said the buck harvest would be lower now even without herd reduction, I am not so sure I would not agree with that... I'll assume we would still have antler restrictions though ... which on it's own will and has lowered the buck harvest.. We had a couple bad winters in this past decade, antler restrictions, the record kill in 2001 and the fact we have lost 200K hunters.. I think maybe it would be lower even with out HR.. but I will not argue that herd reductions have lower the population of both males and females state wide (it did) and thus lower harvest figures for both. less hunters, less time to hunt for many, weather, etc,.. all could very well also lead to fewer deer being killed of both sexes
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/01/29 14:05:46
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 14:05:00
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My reply had NOTHING to do with what RSB wrote, or antler restrictions..
I was correcting your statement about an increase in the number of button bucks being harvested and that just is not true... thus I replied... no arguement == just the fatcs about button buck harvests NOT increasing....
_____________________________
DR. TROUT'S OUTDOORWORLD DO THE MATH--- When comparing the five year average of BB killed Before HR to the five year average of BB killed after HR started there was a average of 21,218 MORE BB KILLED EACH YEAR BECAUSE OF HERD REDUCTION. The reason there weren't more killed the last several years is because THEY DON"T EXIST because of herd reduction. BTW- the numbers you posted on the doe kill are also wrong. edit- guess our posts crossed in the mail
post edited by S-10 - 2012/01/29 14:14:03
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psu_fish
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 14:15:10
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cant kill what you dont see
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RSB
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 15:52:33
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Anyone being even the least bit honest and honorable would certainly expect the buck harvest to be lower now than before antler restrictions, even if no herd reduction had occurred.
No. Other than slight loss due to mortality or the very few bucks that never become ar legal. Other than those insignificant numbers, your flat out wrong, because at some point after the very first year of being saved, the huge majority of bucks become legal at some point.
Thats exactly why Alt said the harvest would decline the first year of ar, but then would be a more "normal" harvest thereafter. But what he didnt mention was the harvests wouldnt rebound because we were in herd reductions mode at the same time!
With antler restrictions a lot more of the legal bucks avoid harvest now than before antler restrictions though. Before antler restrictions all a hunter had to do was see a glint of an antler then take the first shot opportunity they had. Now hunters have to not only see a glint of antler but also use their first shot opportunity to see if it has enough points. That extra time looking saves a lot of legal bucks from becoming a harvest. The fact that hunters are now harvesting fewer of the available legal bucks is also supported with the harvest results from the collared deer studies within the various regions of the state. Of the known legal bucks out there and available to hunters the hunters only harvested the follow percentage of the 2.5 and older bucks within the respective units. Unit______________% of known 2.5 and older bucks harvested 2D___________________________62% 2G___________________________29% 4B___________________________49% I don’t see how anyone being honest and unbiased could say that antler restrictions doesn’t also protect a lot of antler legal bucks that would have been killed during the season if hunters didn’t have to count points. R.S. Bodenhorn
post edited by RSB - 2012/01/29 15:54:38
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Dr. Trout
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 16:18:34
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That extra time to make sure the buck is legal is one of the "complaint" I hear the most... guys complain about not getting a shot at all -- because they got "busted" while trying to count or see the required number of points and/or the deer just keeps walking away as they try to count points... and never get a shot at it. and forget about the old -- see the buck running across the field, the open spot or through the the woods..... yep it has an antler longer than three inches.. so open fire... can't honestly do that any more.. that alone probably saves hundreds of bucks each and every year... I'm still not sure the buck I saw on first day was legal or not.. I know it was at least a 4 point, but I could not be sure about brow tines .. so it just walked away while I tried to find brow tines... before AR = I'd have pulled the trigger the minute I saw two points on one side...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2012/01/29 16:19:42
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 16:42:18
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Of the known legal bucks out there and available to hunters the hunters only harvested the follow percentage of the 2.5 and older bucks within the respective units.
Unit______________% of known 2.5 and older bucks harvested
2D___________________________62%
2G___________________________29%
4B___________________________49% We have already discussed this before concerning that BS in 2G. You don't know if the the bucks were going to be legal or not because when they were caught and tagged was in the winter and early spring BEFORE they had antlers. You have research showing many 2-1/2 yo bucks are not legal . Nice try but FAIL As far as a guy not being able to count points that usually means they move down the line to the next guy just like they have for a hundred years. Remember, your own biologists say we are still killing the majority of legal bucks, all we did (and all you were trying to do) was give them a extra year to live. HR cost us 21,218 BB each year for the first 5 years of HR. Surely your not claiming having to count points saves that many 2-1/2 year olds each year that are legal.
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S-10
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 17:16:47
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Anyone being even the least bit honest and honorable would certainly expect the buck harvest to be lower now than before antler restrictions, even if no herd reduction had occurred.
R.S. Bodenhorn Doc- This is the claim I am showing cannot possibly be true----If you want to say having to count points may save a couple hundred a year statewide I would not dispute that but herd reduction cost us 21,218 BB a year so it is not even close. Even Alt said we would only see a reduced buck kill the first year of AR and we all expected that but it should have only been for one year had it not been for Herd Reduction. It is the same thing that happened with the Elk in Colorado when they went to 4 on a side. One years pain and harvests return to normal except for somewhat bigger Elk.
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RSB
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 17:20:49
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That claim is nothing but one man trying to revise the history of the issue. I am not trying to change history at all. History can stand on its own facts and that is what I am trying point out. I am also trying to help people that really are interested in learning how to think thing through to a logical conclusion instead of believing false information and personal perceptions of the people who really don’t believe in the historical facts or what the deer themselves are proving. 1. The chart clearly shows there is NO DIFFERENCE in the breeding timeframe
The chart you are referring to does not differentiate between adult and juvenile breeding times for the period before or after antler restrictions. The point is without knowing the specifics of when the adults were being bred verse when they are now being bred you can not use the chart to determine if there has been improvement in the breeding times or not. If the adult doe breeding window narrowed but you also have an increase in the number of juveniles being bred (juveniles are typically bred later because they have to reach breeding maturity of about 80 pounds before they are bred) then the window chart will not reflect an improvement even though there is improvement in both the adult breeding window and the number of juveniles being bred. With more bucks in the population the window for the adult does improved but with more juveniles being bred, does that prior to having more bucks where not bred at all, it results in more fawns being born per doe and thus more fawn than you would have without antler restrictions.
2. The PGC Biologists clearly state there is NO DIFFERENCE in the breeding timeframe.
Refer to the previous explanation. The Biologists provided a general statement on the total breeding time period but that does not mean there has not been an improvement when you look at all of the factors of the number of does and the age structure the does being bred in each window of time. 3. The whole stated biological purpose of AR was to TIGHTEN up the breeding timeframe.
That is not really true. That was only one possibility explored as a possible benefit from having additional bucks in the population. It was not the whole reason for antler restrictions.
4. The reason was because there was a greater loss of fawns to predators when the breeding timeframe was longer.
That is true and it has improved. Do you really think it was better when we had fewer fawns per doe being born and spread over a longer period than it is now with more fawns born in both the correct time frame and also more being born outside of the peek window as well? Granted predators probably get a few more fawns total now, simply because there are more predators, but think what it would be like if we didn’t have the more fawns being born since the beginning of antler restrictions.
5. What has happened is the worse possible case. Over the last 10 years the predators have INCREASED in numbers, The deer numbers have DECREASED as a result of HR, and the breeding timeframe has stayed the same or gotten worse.
Just how would you propose to stop the affects of predation? The bear seasons are being expanded. The bobcat seasons are being expanded. There has never been any restriction on killing coyotes. So, just how would you reduce the affects of predation on fawns other than by trying to improve the fawn birth and survival rates? There is noting to indicate that the breeding time frame has gotten worse in fact it is quite the contrary and all real facts indicate that both the number of does breeding and the timeframe for the adult does has improved. 6. It doesn't matter if the predators are eating fawns of younger or older mothers, they are still eating fawns and at a higher percentage as a result of HR. There are now a larger percentage of younger doe to give birth and fewer adult does than before HR as a direct result of the PGC spending years telling us to shoot the larger doe. It is just another way to reduce the deer herd at a faster rate.
Absolutely predators kill and eat fawns but the evidence of the fawn mortality study clearly shows that predation is not a major factor where there is suitable deer habitat. There is no evidence to indicate predators are killing fawns at a higher percentage now than any time in the past either before or since antler restrictions. Predation of fawns is influenced by a large number of factors from the number of predators to the quality of the habitat, to the timing of the fawn birth window to the fall mast crop on to the winter and spring conditions that contributed to the fawn birth weight and the ability of the doe to provide enough milk. The fact is that you can only carry a set number of deer on the habitat and trying to carry excess deer through the winter does not result in having more deer in the long term, in fact history has long proven that not harvesting enough deer and carrying excess deer through the winter is what leads to the decline in future deer numbers and then ultimately to declining deer harvests as well. R.S. Bodenhorn
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RSB
Expert Angler
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 17:25:39
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10
Of the known legal bucks out there and available to hunters the hunters only harvested the follow percentage of the 2.5 and older bucks within the respective units.
Unit______________% of known 2.5 and older bucks harvested
2D___________________________62%
2G___________________________29%
4B___________________________49%
We have already discussed this before concerning that BS in 2G. You don't know if the the bucks were going to be legal or not because when they were caught and tagged was in the winter and early spring BEFORE they had antlers. You have research showing many 2-1/2 yo bucks are not legal . Nice try but FAIL
As far as a guy not being able to count points that usually means they move down the line to the next guy just like they have for a hundred years. Remember, your own biologists say we are still killing the majority of legal bucks, all we did (and all you were trying to do) was give them a extra year to live. HR cost us 21,218 BB each year for the first 5 years of HR. Surely your not claiming having to count points saves that many 2-1/2 year olds each year that are legal.
Once again the REAL facts provided by the REAL deer prove you are wrong with your opinions. The facts provided by the REAL bucks are proving that a much higher than expected percentage of the older and antler legal bucks are surviving the hunting seasons. R.S. Bodenhorn
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Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
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RE: never happen in PA
2012/01/29 17:29:54
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The trouble was folks like you took the "return to a more normal harvest" as meaning normal like before herd reduction.... I on the other hand === took it as meaning that after the herd was reduced by approx 40%, we would start to create a more "normal" (average) harvest for a smaller and more healthy deer herd for all the coming years after the herd was reduced.. we would have less deer but also less BBs getting harvest yearly, bigger/older bucks harvested yearly, better buck/doe ratios and better recruitment and retention of fawns.. How ANYONE could possibly think that by reducing the herd by 40% over a few years the results would be that within a few more years things would be back to "normal" (as in harvest numbers before the HR and antler restrictions) is beyond by comprehension
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