never happen in PA

went to Texas last week to a buddy of mine hunting ranch to thin out his deer herd, The bucks in Texas are unreal, biggest racks I've ever seen he wanted any buck 4yrs or older with a score less than 125 taken out. I had to laugh told him in pa thats done after they are on the ground, just looking for 3 up here. Didn't shoot for 3 days was affriad I might kill one tat I shouldn'f have an screw up going back again. Can age a deer well enough but not score them that well. They want to hunt them in thier prime of 6-7 yrs old. Was thinking if I had brought a couple of my other buddies with me it would have been a kill first age an score later, zlike to pui some pic on but dont know how,

The reason it will never happen is apparent after reading one word in your post, "ranch".
 
You were on a private ranch that likely consisted of 1000's of contiguous acres with it, right?  While these properties are fairly common in western states, no where near as many privately owned areas like that exist in the eastern US.  If you had huge ranches such as those in the western states consisting of 1000's of contiguous acres to privately manage in just about any state, you would be able to achieve similar results. 

In PA bucks the vast majority of bucks are killed well before they reach 4 years of age. Heck, I could be wrong but aren't most bucks in PA killed before they reach 2.5 years? I'm sure someone on here has the stats.

The interesting part of the opening post is that they want all 4+ year olds that don't make 125 culled from the property.  This goes directly to genetics.  It is presumed that the food is good, most of these types of place not only have good habitat, but also supplementally feed.  It has some age which should be showing its potential -- for Texas 125 at age 4 is just that, potential.  So if it's not making the grade at 4, it won't at 5, 6, or 7.  It won't suddenly go from 120 at 4 to 180+ (and that is what they are looking for, not going from 120 to 140), at age 5.

If asking Penna. hunters to count points is too difficult & burdensome. Can you imagine asking them to age & score their target?

S-10 it was probably fairly easy to tell those 4 1/2 year olds you did see though right. I doubt I have seen 2 dozen 4 1/2 year old bucks in my 45 years in the woods in Pa, and I spend a lot of time in the woods as a Forester. The oldest buck I believe I have ever shot I think was a 3 1/2 year old. Quite a few 2 1/2 year olds I have shot. We have some hogs in the woods now though. If we keep hunting in Pa like we have been lately we will see many more. Oh but they get to be big, lazy,cagy,and nocturnal though.The gang I hunt with in Clarion-Venango Co's has been downing lots of 120+ bucks. Heck I have downed 3 myself in the last decade. You have to pass on a lot of mediocers to shoot the bigger ones though,and put in the time. Last year I shot a beautiful 2 1/2 year old 10 pt, and all I could think of was what would he have looked like in a couple of years. Shot 15 minutes before quiting time on the last day of rifle season.I passed on a few earlier in the season. Shot a little scrub 1 1/2 year old on last day of muzzleloader season this year.

S-10 I was not criticising you but agreeing with you. All I meant was them OLD Bucks stand out even or especially in PA.

Perhaps I use the term scrubs loosly. I classify all small racked bucks as scrubs. Older small racked bucks as culls.

ORIGINAL: thedrake

I won't claim to know much about deer genetics, but....

This ranch is waiting til deer are 4.5 years old to judge their genetics... meanwhile there are guys on this forum who see a 1.5 year old with a small rack who will call them scrubs, as if they can determine the deer's antler potential at that age.

In my humble opinion, if you let any buck in PA grow to 4.5 years, it will have a rack that most hunters in our state will be happy to put on their wall. It's pretty hard to talk about a buck's genetics in our state unless we let them live long enough to show what they are capable of.

 
Spot on.  I am not sure one could judge a deer's potential until 3.5 or 4.5.
 
That being written, PA deer hunting never has been nor will it ever be, for the majority of hunters, about putting a deer on their wall, but rather in their freezer.

ORIGINAL: DarDys

That being written, PA deer hunting never has been nor will it ever be, for the majority of hunters, about putting a deer on their wall, but rather in their freezer.

Agreed.

You have to remember that antler restriction to grow large bucks wasn't the goal of the PGC but merely a means to acheive the real goal of herd reduction. Early on in their sportsmen meetings they realized that they got the hunters attention when they talked about how HR/AR would lead to MORE AND BETTER BUCKS. Their hope was while our attention was on that promise we wouldn't notice what was happening to the deer herd until it was too late, and it worked to a degree.

You can't force a population of hunters who are used to killing a buck every year or few years of various antler sizes to settle for killing a buck every 8-12 years that may average a bit larger than before without causing problems. This is especially true when many people feel that Antlers don't make the buck but merely make the buck legal. This state always had those folks that were antler hunters and spent the time necessary to be successful. They will still hunt, but many of those who were just weekend hunters satisfied with any buck will get discouraged and quit and that is what is happening. Even now, many of the larger bucks are a product of private or leased and posted properties being managed just the opposite of what is being done on public land.
We are becoming just like the Western states where to be successful with any regularity you either have to own your land, lease land or pay big bucks to buy a buck.

      Here in Ct I have had the opportunity over many years to have had access-more or  less exclusively- to prime Deer woods. In those areas when practicing antler restraint over time some very respectable harvests resulted in a consistent manner. With proper scouting and preparation prime harvests of mature Bucks could be counted on regularly.
   Upon the Urban sprawls expansion over the past decade or two those properties have gone and I now hunt places with many other hunters around who take the first Deer they see and then some with other tags.
    Are there decent bucks there ?- sometimes - -but not so regular as to be counted on and only with the greatest trigger restraint and 'waiting them out' over years of looking for HIM only- its hard if not nearly impossible with bangers all over the place stirring things up on a daily basis. You can do it all right all the time and not stand a chance with the unintended bumping and heavy hunter traffic.
    My experience clearly concurs with that of those bemoaning your statewide public lands dilema in PA and the indication that PRIVATE shooting is pretty much all thats going to produce decent bucks on a regular basis- YES they exist in public areas but NOT with the kind of pressure they receive in todays hunting world of TAGS TAGS TAGS huge extended seasons and more TAGS TAGS TAGS --in any State.
  In Ct its easy to have 8 or 10 tags a year and I understand you PA folks get bout a half dozen ( all seasons and weapons) THIS is the issue and over harvest IS the problem-- 2 or 3 tags a year to be used on the weapons or seasons of choice is more than adequate for any true HUNTER-
Ya CANT be shooting all the buttons and then expect Bucks  and ya cant hound your deer herd for 5 months a year all during the ruts and expect good things to happen--wether Buck or just Deer hunting--- Just an old hunters opinion-----

ORIGINAL: CrossForkWookie

ORIGINAL: thedrake

I won't claim to know much about deer genetics, but....

This ranch is waiting til deer are 4.5 years old to judge their genetics... meanwhile there are guys on this forum who see a 1.5 year old with a small rack who will call them scrubs, as if they can determine the deer's antler potential at that age.

In my humble opinion, if you let any buck in PA grow to 4.5 years, it will have a rack that most hunters in our state will be happy to put on their wall. It's pretty hard to talk about a buck's genetics in our state unless we let them live long enough to show what they are capable of.

Agreed. You have too many people in PA who want to prove their manlihood by shooting something, anything.....that they just don't have the patience to wait. PA has a long heritage of "meatpole" results that is going to take a long time to change.



.

 
I get a tad put off by the "want to prove their manlihood" basher crowd.  I go fishing to catch fish, I go hunting to shoot things.  I bet those that golf go to put the ball in the hole and those that bowl go to knock down pins.  There is no manlihood issue in any of this.  It is simply people doing a sport because they like to do the sport. 
 
In fact, I think just the opposite is true.  If you "want to prove your manlihood" be being a trophy hunter, knock yourself out, but don't try to discredit those that don't have the same view as being less than you are, because we aren't. 

ORIGINAL: DarDys

I get a tad put off by the "want to prove their manlihood" basher crowd.  I go fishing to catch fish, I go hunting to shoot things.  I bet those that golf go to put the ball in the hole and those that bowl go to knock down pins.  There is no manlihood issue in any of this.  It is simply people doing a sport because they like to do the sport. 

In fact, I think just the opposite is true.  If you "want to prove your manlihood" be being a trophy hunter, knock yourself out, but don't try to discredit those that don't have the same view as being less than you are, because we aren't. 

 
These are all very poor comparisons, because with buck hunting, you get ONE buck tag.  If you could only catch one fish, drive one golf ball, or roll one bowling bowl for an entire year, I bet your approach to these activities would be very different.  
 
With that said, I have no problem with a person shooting any legal buck, provided it is a buck which makes that person happy. 
 
I never could understand the contempt for people wishing to be a little more selective with what they harvest.  And it still amazes me that people can be so shortsighted that they can't appreciate that people hunt for different reasons. 

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

ORIGINAL: DarDys

I get a tad put off by the "want to prove their manlihood" basher crowd.  I go fishing to catch fish, I go hunting to shoot things.  I bet those that golf go to put the ball in the hole and those that bowl go to knock down pins.  There is no manlihood issue in any of this.  It is simply people doing a sport because they like to do the sport. 

In fact, I think just the opposite is true.  If you "want to prove your manlihood" be being a trophy hunter, knock yourself out, but don't try to discredit those that don't have the same view as being less than you are, because we aren't. 

These are all very poor comparisons, because with buck hunting, you get ONE buck tag.  If you could only catch one fish, drive one golf ball, or roll one bowling bowl for an entire year, I bet your approach to these activities would be very different.  

With that said, I have no problem with a person shooting any legal buck, provided it is a buck which makes that person happy. 

I never could understand the contempt for people wishing to be a little more selective with what they harvest.  And it still amazes me that people can be so shortsighted that they can't appreciate that people hunt for different reasons. 

 
I see your point, but I think they are comparable.  Sport for sports sake.  It would be like saying, if I want to golf, I will only play Augusta and look down upon those that play the public courses.
 
And there is no contempt for people wishing to be a little more selective with what they harvest by those that are not selective.  In fact it is quite the opposite.  In this thread it was those that are more selective that questioned those that aren't manliness.  It is they who should appreciate that people hunt for different reasons.  A person not being selective does not change the selective hunters option to be selective, but the forced selection via AR does affect those that are not.