WMU 2B

there isn't much land inside of both 2B and westmoreland county.  I don't know of any public land there, so it is knocking on doors for you.

Thanks
Rick

We have been doing very, very poorly for about 4 years now out this way.

While Loomis may be talking about the particular area he hunts, I am not so sure that holds true for the whole WMU...

2010 seems to have been a VERY bad year, I'll give him that, but other than that, it appears to be fairly steady for the preceeding 7 years ... with 2 very good years and the rest within a few hundred of each other.. notice the big increase in 2009 (an extra 5,00 harvested) and the resulting lower harvest the next year of only 17,000 =

WMU 2B = total deer harvested

2004 = 20,200
2005 = 19,700
2006 = 22,300
2007 = 19,700
2008 = 19,300
2009 = 24,300
2010 = 17,000

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

Doc, his statements are very accurate in general for the more rural areas of 2B.  The rifle areas of 2B where Loomis hunts in Western Westmoreland and also in Southern Butler have been absolutely hammered.  When you allow doe hunting for an additional 2 months in 2B compared to the rest of state, it is only logical to expect that the pressure will be increased and concentrated in 2B.  

+10000000000000

I've hunted 2B in Butler County for deer for the past 10 years. I started hunting this area right around the start of AR/HR. Can't remember if it was before or after, but anyway, it would be nothing to see 20+ deer a day during the first few days of gun season. As HR progressed, numbers dwindled. Neighboring farms would do drives all day long on the first day and both Saturdays, and shoot at deer all day long.

I hunted more in 2D this year, and got a doe, but after that I concentrated on that property in 2B because I had seen 2 very nice bucks while I was duck hunting. I saw deer where I hunted, but could not believe the lack of shooting around me.

In previous years, on the first day and both Saturdays it would be nothing to hear 20 shots an hour, and 5-10 shots an hour on other days.

I hunted on the 2B/2D border Saturday morning till 9:30 and heard a whopping 3 shots. All on the 2D side of Rt. 228. In the evening, I hunted 3:30 till dark a little deeper into 2B and heard 4 shots.

I suspect that this will finally be the year we see that the 2B deer herd, outside of the urban/suburban areas of Allegheny County, has finally gone bust.

X2

ORIGINAL: rsquared

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

Doc, his statements are very accurate in general for the more rural areas of 2B.  The rifle areas of 2B where Loomis hunts in Western Westmoreland and also in Southern Butler have been absolutely hammered.  When you allow doe hunting for an additional 2 months in 2B compared to the rest of state, it is only logical to expect that the pressure will be increased and concentrated in 2B.  

+10000000000000

I've hunted 2B in Butler County for deer for the past 10 years. I started hunting this area right around the start of AR/HR. Can't remember if it was before or after, but anyway, it would be nothing to see 20+ deer a day during the first few days of gun season. As HR progressed, numbers dwindled. Neighboring farms would do drives all day long on the first day and both Saturdays, and shoot at deer all day long.

I hunted more in 2D this year, and got a doe, but after that I concentrated on that property in 2B because I had seen 2 very nice bucks while I was duck hunting. I saw deer where I hunted, but could not believe the lack of shooting around me.

In previous years, on the first day and both Saturdays it would be nothing to hear 20 shots an hour, and 5-10 shots an hour on other days.

I hunted on the 2B/2D border Saturday morning till 9:30 and heard a whopping 3 shots. All on the 2D side of Rt. 228. In the evening, I hunted 3:30 till dark a little deeper into 2B and heard 4 shots.

I suspect that this will finally be the year we see that the 2B deer herd, outside of the urban/suburban areas of Allegheny County, has finally gone bust.

Well, I've been following the other discussions on who is to blame - the PGC or hunters.

I can see both sides of the issue. I've been saying for a few years now that it's time to take the portion of Butler Co. where I hunt out of 2B. Probably even parts of Allegheny Co. too. Clinton Twp is not Fox Chapel. Fawn Twp. is not Shaler. West Deer Twp. is not Bradford Woods.

Total mismanagement on the part of the PGC in doing that.

But, where I hunt in 2B, the owners of 2 neighboring properties, and their guests (mostly relatives and close friends) are just as much a part of the problem. For many years, I have heard them, and in some cases watched them, shoot pretty much indiscriminately at deer that run through their property. They put on drives wherever there are woods, despite posted signs and confrontations with other landowners. I don't know if they tag all their deer or not, but with so many antlerless tags available it's hard to imagine they at least couldn't tag each one if they wanted to.

As the numbers of deer have dwindled, their forays onto posted property and other property around them, have grown. And as the numbers of deer have dwindled, they've hunted even harder to fill all their tags - or at least get all their hunters a shot.

The PGC may have sown the seeds for that kind of ignorance and greed to proliferate, but the hunters are the ones that have certainly pulled the trigger on all those deer over the past 7 or 8 years.

I bet those who "feel/believe" the speed limit is too high ( and complain about that fact as well ) drive below said speed limit. Or choose a different, "safer" route.

In fact around here the majority of drivers I encounter, do just that

They need to go back to county by county....

under the current system if they need 5,00 deer killed in 2F, for example, they issue enough tags to get that done..

The problem comes when the hunters concentrate on just a few areas of 2F .. say Jefferson county and few are harvested anywhere else... Jefferson gets over harvested and the others like Forest, Elk, McKean, etc get under harvested...

IMHO === WMUs are too Big.....and have way to much area to control where the correct number of deer are harvested...

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

We have been doing very, very poorly for about 4 years now out this way.

While Loomis may be talking about the particular area he hunts, I am not so sure that holds true for the whole WMU...

2010 seems to have been a VERY bad year, I'll give him that, but other than that, it appears to be fairly steady for the preceeding 7 years ... with 2 very good years and the rest within a few hundred of each other.. notice the big increase in 2009 (an extra 5,00 harvested) and the resulting lower harvest the next year of only 17,000 =

WMU 2B = total deer harvested

2004 = 20,200
2005 = 19,700
2006 = 22,300
2007 = 19,700
2008 = 19,300
2009 = 24,300
2010 = 17,000

 
Probably the main reason for the large number in 2009 was due to the fact that the gun season in 2B was approximately 2 weeks (From the end of regular season through 12-24)... I killed a deer that year during that time frame....When the only gun hunting in Western PA is open in one zone, you can bet that zone is going to see a lot of pressure. 
 
My Dad, Brother I have hunted and harvested well over a hundred deer in the same areas of 2B since I killed my first deer there in 1992.   We continue to see fairly stable numbers of deer in these areas.  Of course, it is nearly impossible to hunt for miles on either side of the properties we do.  This allows the herd to replenish in our hunting area in the off season.  This obviously does not work in areas like 2G and 2F where nearly every area receives at least some hunting pressure. 
 
Like hunting anywhere, finding the right spot is the key to shooting deer.  Unfortunately, there is only a small portion of huntable land compared to what there was back in 1992 and there is going to be less every year from here on out.  After losing one of my last hunting spots in the next few years, I will most likely stop hunting 2B.w_w.
 
 

Doc, rest assured the majority of the northern, southern, and eastern portions of 2B have seen a dramatic decrease in deer numbers, especially over the last 5 years.  You would be hard pressed to find anyone who is familiar with 2B saying that numbers are still high in the rural parts of the WMU.  Of course their are still some pockets, but the above comments were made in a more general sense.

It took a few years to see the reduction here in 2B, but I feel that once people caught on to the unlimited tags and extra 2 months to hunt does, pressure increased dramatically and more of the deer available for harvest are now being killed.    

There are a number of properties I no longer hunt in 2B, because honestly there are very, very few deer left on them.  I primarily hunt on our lease and between the 3 of us we saw roughly 1 deer per 4 hours of stand time for this archery season.  Even our cameras led us to believe that there were/are very few adult doe on our property.  The neighbors and their friends shooting absolutely everything that walks for the last 5 years is beginning to hit us as well.  I am relieved to say that they were not successful in killing any this year.

I must admit that after this season, I am starting to change my tune a bit regarding the deer numbers in 2B. 

Brockway huh trout? I have a camp in Marienville

A guy from work called the PGC recently and asked for the township specific harvest data for some areas here in 2B.  They told him that the data was not available, to which he replied "then why must we report it?"  It certainly seems absurd that the data can't be easily complied into some useful format with the technology available. 
 
While we are at it, it would also be nice to see the distribution of public vs private land kills.  Some trends showing that information for the past 10 years would be interesting to see as well.  Antlerless deer reporting with seperate categories for shed bucks, buttons, and doe(female) would also be nice. 
 
On another note regarding 2B, I recall there had been some talk about reconfiguring the WMU using the turnpike, 70, and 79 as the boundaries for the "new" 2B.  Seems like a good idea to me.  If done properly, it would focus the pressure where it needs to be.

Till the reporting rates go up it leaves the PGC with a lot of room for the Fudge factor.

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

I can tell you why the township info is not released to the general public.. it varies way too much from year to year to be of any great importance...

I had the info for my area and it was easy to see how it changed from year to year just because of a guy hunting an area near a border.

example... if I shoot a deer "in my backyard it's polk township.. If I walkd 1/4 of a mile across the "flats" down into the hollow and up the other side it now becomes one of the biggest townships in this area and I am still only less than 1/4 mile away as the crow flies..

a mile down the road is another totally seperate township and another part of SGL #54 ...

it may be good for a general idea of an area but gives a false impression of just one township...

My home township varies as much as 5-6 deer from year to year.. contains 30.7 square miles,there are 294 people, 111 households,


and another fact is MANY hunters (that do not live here) have no idea what township they are hunting in especially when it comes to SGL #54 around here and SGL#44 in Elk and forget trying to figure what township you may be in while hunting Clear Creek State Forest...

 
The variance is calculated via standard deviation.  But again, that's math.

I thought it was the hunters harvesting the deer and controlling the numbers.

It's the PGC ?? Now I am confused.

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

A guy from work called the PGC recently and asked for the township specific harvest data for some areas here in 2B.  They told him that the data was not available, to which he replied "then why must we report it?"  It certainly seems absurd that the data can't be easily complied into some useful format with the technology available. 

While we are at it, it would also be nice to see the distribution of public vs private land kills.  Some trends showing that information for the past 10 years would be interesting to see as well.  Antlerless deer reporting with seperate categories for shed bucks, buttons, and doe(female) would also be nice. 

On another note regarding 2B, I recall there had been some talk about reconfiguring the WMU using the turnpike, 70, and 79 as the boundaries for the "new" 2B.  Seems like a good idea to me.  If done properly, it would focus the pressure where it needs to be.

 
Pretty sure there used to be a checkbox for private/public.  That info probably would offer more value now than before.  Especially considering joe blow can get 10+ tags now.