Dang...did I really write all of that?!

Yep---not bad either--you should do it more often

ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: DarDys

Again, its not an archery vs. firearms thing, it is simply that the majority gets seconds now and what you are proposing means there will be even less of those seconds for those footing the largest license inflow stream for the PGC budget in the future.

I believe it is approaching a 43%/57% percent split at this point.  Firearms folks have much less of a majority than they used to and the truth of the matter is most archers join you in firearms seasons if they have tags to fill. 

 
I just checked PA license sales for 2010 to see where I might be erring.  I am not so sure I am.
 
Since one must have an archery license to hunt archery, it can safely be presumed that the 289,416 resident and non-resident archery licenses were sold to archery hunters only.  That would be their total as a subset of all PA hunters.
 
According to the PGC numbers, the total number of licenses (exclusive of the 7-day small game license) is 927,149.  I must admit that I have no idea what a junior or senior combo license is, but included them in that total along with all of the other various variations, so that may affect the overall number (If I am incorrect, I am sure someone will point it out and I apologize in advance).
 
Dividing 289,416 archery licenses by the total license population (have to buy a regular backtag first) of 927,149, that makes archery exclusive hunters 32.2% of the population and not 43%.  That leaves 68.8% of the population as non-archery hunters, not 57%.
 
Of course, there is a percentage of license buyers that do not identify themselves as deer hunters, but that information, like most PGC surveys is pretty useless except for general trending purposes becuase it is poorly designed and way too small of a sample size and cannot accurately be used in any mathematical sense.
 
So, in nonhunting terms, lets use a goofy example or two.  You want to go see a movie, heck, let's say just for fun, "The Deer Hunter," to stay in theme.  You along with 927,148 others buy a ticket.  But because 289,416 of them buy Snow Caps instead of popcorn they not only get to enter the theater first, but they get to watch 30% (I know, I know, the PGC number is flawed, so let's say 25% or a quarter) of the movie before you are permitted in.  Sound fair to you if you don't like Snowcaps?
 
Or maybe its a buffet, where those 289,416 that eat with their hands (we are talking primitive, right) get to go first and those that use ultensiles get whatever they leave?  Sound fair for those that prefer a knife, spoon, and fork to fingers?
 
Again, it has nothing to do with archery vs. firearms.  I has to do with a minority getting advantages that the majority doesn't and then wanting more and more and more.
 
And it also doesn't have to do with unwilling vs. unable.  Let's say you want to get ahead in the fashion or interior decorating industry.  But in order to do so, you need to, well, move in certain circles that aren't exactly to your liking.  You just don't want to go there, literally.  Are you unwilling or unable?  Neither, its just a choice.  Same here.

Gotta get back to work, but here's my punchline: "Adapt or go home" works really well when you're talking about death, and taxes, and the electronic age. But the world has become a very impatient place to live and has become populated by people with Napoleonic complexes: They want what they want, and they want it now. Everyone who participates - not just the winners - gets a trophy. The consequences brought about by the change in the fabric of this sport has made it easy for that mindset to take root. And when you make it easier for the J.G. Wentworths of the world, you open the door for a characteristic of hunters that defy and further scrape away at what more than not of us hope the sport - and to be sure, the tradition of this sport - was supposed to represent.

ORIGINAL: dpms

I believe the PGC stated we have about 700,000 hunters that indentify themselves as firearms deer hunters.

 
They also said we had 1.6 million deer at one point.

ORIGINAL: Noplacelikehome
BTW I will NEVER give up hunting. It is my passion.

More than catching 47 rainbows and 743 pike on waxworms and globugs?

Does it really bother you if a 6 year old shoots a deer with a crossbow? Is it because he/she got one and you didn't? Next you'll probably complain about handicap people taking all the good parking spaces, too! ME ME ME ME ME !!!!! Well, time to get out the inline this Saturday. I hope I don't upset any archery hunters by walking past "their" spot. Good luck to all!!!

Maybe we'll get the rain over with and it'll be nice in a couple weeks. 22 inches of rain here in the last 2.5 months. ekk!

I know all about C&M and I'm personal friends with the original owners Dik and Rudy. It's no secret that they can't compete with large retailers any more. I often visit them and the store is dead come September nothing of what it once was. Arrow sales also took a drop from earlier days. They used to make arrows non stop from Aug till into October. Wasn't the case when I stopped in and yes it was the end of September last season. Now, many can buy on line and get exactly want they want. I would try and buy my raw materials from them as to support the dealer and personal friend as did some members of the BV archers club. Only high end compounds can be bought from a dealer as one example but many other items are being bought on line and at large retail stores. The dealers such as C&M could not finance the amount of stock necessary to compete with others as mentioned and pushed some to buy else were. Remember when other than the dealer, the only place you could buy archery products was Sol's Neft stores and what little K-Mart carried ? Times are changing.Order online with free shipping. One thing most large retailers don't have is a knowledgeable people behind the counter and a good pro shop to properly set up and tune equipment. C&M has been for sale for a long time and yes you are right Big O wanted out. I watched the business slowly go down hill as the years passed and watched help come and go.I also think that when BV archers built their indoor range that many left C&M as to a place to shoot indoors. BTW another large dealer is closing as well in Warren. Wild Wind Sporters. Once a Bowtech dealer with also an indoor range with video recently had more x-bows than compounds and is going out of business. Go figure.

ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

You tell me, for the better or the worst?

In the late eighties, we had close to 320,000 archers.  Today with archery license sales already plateauing after crossbow inclusion we sell about 290,000.  Participation is up, archery harvest up a tad, more kids hunting, older folks back in the game, folks enjoying their time in the woods and continuing to buy a hunting license.  Looks good to me, overall.  Some negative stuff but that will never be eliminated.

Down the road when license sales continue to fall overall, we will again be looking at ways to get folks hunting.  Archery is gonna be mid September till the end of January statewide in the future. 

No right or wrong answer here just courious. Why do you shoot a X-Bow ?

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

No right or wrong answer here just courious. Why do you shoot a X-Bow ?

 
Was against crossbows in archery season not that long ago. When they became legal in the SRA, I continued to hunt with my Browning compound for a few years.  My curiousity got the best of me and I went out and purchased one in the summer of 2008 to get some personal experience with one.
 
After spending some time with the crossbow, my feelings began to change and I enjoyed shooting and learning all I could about them.  Hunted with it that first fall and killed a good buck on opening day. A 10 yard shot.  I have missed some deer and killed some deer since then.  Sure, they have some advantages.  They have some disadvantages as well.  My hunt hasn't changed and I still feel that I am bowhunting.
 
I enjoy using the crossbow and sharing my experiences which has taken me into outdoor writing/filming in crossbow media.  Some day, a recurve will join me in the woods.  That has appeal to me as well.  Used to shoot alot of traditional bows but never hunted with one.
 
Alot of reasons I guess somewhere in there.  Hard to put a finger on it but I enjoy the hunt with one as an archer.

ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: DarDys

Again, its not an archery vs. firearms thing, it is simply that the majority gets seconds now and what you are proposing means there will be even less of those seconds for those footing the largest license inflow stream for the PGC budget in the future.

I believe it is approaching a 43%/57% percent split at this point.  Firearms folks have much less of a majority than they used to and the truth of the matter is most archers join you in firearms seasons if they have tags to fill. 

I just checked PA license sales for 2010 to see where I might be erring.  I am not so sure I am.

Since one must have an archery license to hunt archery, it can safely be presumed that the 289,416 resident and non-resident archery licenses were sold to archery hunters only.  That would be their total as a subset of all PA hunters.

According to the PGC numbers, the total number of licenses (exclusive of the 7-day small game license) is 927,149.  I must admit that I have no idea what a junior or senior combo license is, but included them in that total along with all of the other various variations, so that may affect the overall number (If I am incorrect, I am sure someone will point it out and I apologize in advance).

Dividing 289,416 archery licenses by the total license population (have to buy a regular backtag first) of 927,149, that makes archery exclusive hunters 32.2% of the population and not 43%.  That leaves 68.8% of the population as non-archery hunters, not 57%.

Of course, there is a percentage of license buyers that do not identify themselves as deer hunters, but that information, like most PGC surveys is pretty useless except for general trending purposes becuase it is poorly designed and way too small of a sample size and cannot accurately be used in any mathematical sense.

So, in nonhunting terms, lets use a goofy example or two.  You want to go see a movie, heck, let's say just for fun, "The Deer Hunter," to stay in theme.  You along with 927,148 others buy a ticket.  But because 289,416 of them buy Snow Caps instead of popcorn they not only get to enter the theater first, but they get to watch 30% (I know, I know, the PGC number is flawed, so let's say 25% or a quarter) of the movie before you are permitted in.  Sound fair to you if you don't like Snowcaps?

Or maybe its a buffet, where those 289,416 that eat with their hands (we are talking primitive, right) get to go first and those that use ultensiles get whatever they leave?  Sound fair for those that prefer a knife, spoon, and fork to fingers?

Again, it has nothing to do with archery vs. firearms.  I has to do with a minority getting advantages that the majority doesn't and then wanting more and more and more.

And it also doesn't have to do with unwilling vs. unable.  Let's say you want to get ahead in the fashion or interior decorating industry.  But in order to do so, you need to, well, move in certain circles that aren't exactly to your liking.  You just don't want to go there, literally.  Are you unwilling or unable?  Neither, its just a choice.  Same here.

 
It's not minority vs majority either.  It's low vs high impact on the deer herd.   No social favoritism going on.  What is it you want anyway ?   Get a group organized, set realistic goals and go for it.  Yer gonna have to justify low impact however, which isn't possible with high powered rifles being used by so many. 

As much as I'd rather see our youth involved in the outdoors rather than a lot of the other stuff going on in todays society, really think there should be an age limit on the mentored hunts, kinda think at 5-6 years of age that maybe its the mentor doing the actual hunting, which yea imo does make it about the deer.

ORIGINAL: DarDys

In other words, enjoy the advantage that archery has for a minority and don't get greedy at the expense of the majority.

The fact of the matter is the majority(firearms) are killing 70% or more of our antlered deer harvested.  The other fact is that archers account for about 43% of deer hunters. 

If one wanted to even out the harvest based on percentage of each group participating, firearms season could be cut and archery lengthened.    Not that I would support that but you have got to be careful when pitting groups against each others as dynamics change.  There could very well be a point in time where more folks archery hunt than rifle hunt.  I think Ohio is darn close if not there already. 

Dardys,
Just admit it, you are jealous of archery hunters and the archery season. One simple fix, join us. I know it would cut into your small game time but I have many friends that do both. See, if archery season is extended, you'll definitely have time to enjoy both! See how easy that was....

And yeah, PA's archery season should be longer and should definitely include the rut. There, I said it. My selfishness has shown through. But guess what, those 60% or so of PA hunters that identify themselves as rifle deer hunters only have just as much opportunity to pick up the bow and, geesh, even a crossbow now and join in the fun. NO ONE is stopping them other than themselves. No sense complaining about it or trying to gain sympathy from others for it because you'll get none when you are limiting yourself.

ORIGINAL: S-10

It seems very much that you are trying to intertwine two seperate approaches to hunter recruitment. In your opinion, increasing the deer herd is the best way to recruit hunters to our sport. Because of that, it seems you are unwilling to accept any other means as possibly helping. I'm I wrong in that assumption?

I am merely pointing out the facts of life and the facts show that with all the increased opportunities for the youth in the last decade or so their numbers are decreasing as the deer herd is decreasing. Their numbers were increasing up until about 2004-5 when the effects of herd reduction began to be felt. You can throw all the medicine you want at a symptom but until you treat the root cause of the problem you are wasting your time and the facts prove that. I also believe that 5 or 6 is too young to hunt and feel it is more a power trip for the parent than a thrill for the youth.

Tell that to my 3.5 yr old son who throws a fit when I am leaving for afternoon hunts! Now, he is definitely NOT ready for any mentor hunts but the enthusiasm sure is there and I think he'll be out there with me sooner rather than later in the upcoming years.