Im sure you could send an email to get the survey results. I dont think they are probably some huge secret, though Im sure if the results had been a bit more supportive of their plight, you wouldnt have to send an email...the results and explanation of would probably have been plastered on every message board on the internet and in 1500 articles since then.

Joe neville of pgcs information & education dept. spoke of the survey over on Roxanne Pallones skunk in woodpile site. Just said the results were in and being analyzed, that was several months ago. They surveyed hunters that had bought a hunting license the year before but not the following year to see what reasons were given for quitting.

ORIGINAL: wayne c

Joe neville of pgcs information & education dept. spoke of the survey over on Roxanne Pallones skunk in woodpile site. Just said the results were in and being analyzed, that was several months ago. They surveyed hunters that had bought a hunting license the year before but not the following year to see what reasons were given for quitting.

http://skunkinthewoodpile.com/?p=3346


Crossbows and Sunday hunting
Sunday, March 13th, 2011 | Archery, Hunting, Legislation, PGC | The Dog
Today’s post about Sunday hunting is brought to us by the Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation (PCF). The sportsmen’s organization was founded in 2008 to promote the use of crossbows as hunting tools to manage wildlife. The organization uses education and outreach to advocate the use of crossbows, foster meaningful landowner relationships, and create partnerships among hunting organizations. To learn more about the PCF, visit their website at www.pacrossbow.com.

We encourage other sportsmen’s groups to support the repeal of the ban on Sunday hunting and for the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) to be able to regulate Sunday hunting. – Roxane Palone

“At the core of the mission of the Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation, is the objective to increase participation in hunting and to recruit new hunters into our sport. Our organization believes that the inclusion of crossbows into our archery seasons has resulted in positive gains in both areas. We also believe that there are many options to further add to these positive gains. Sunday hunting has long been a point of contention among many groups, including the sportsmen of this state. Unfortunately the Pennsylvania Game Commission’s hands are tied on this issue as our state’s General Assembly currently regulates Sunday hunting.

The Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation has been made aware of a willingness from some of our state’s representatives to consider legislation that would essentially give regulatory control of Sunday hunting to the PGC. As a result of this movement, the PCF swiftly polled its membership on this exact scenario. The results of our poll revealed overwhelming support for the PGC having regulatory control of Sunday hunting.

The PCF feels very strongly that the issue of Sunday hunting is a “seasons and bag limits” issue and that the PGC should have regulatory control. Our organization also believes that allowing hunting seven days of the week will provide much needed opportunities for those who struggle to find the time to enjoy our sport. With hunter numbers decreasing and our youth being subjected to many distractions, Sunday hunting will help to slow the loss and bring sporting families further together on the weekends.


If legislation does pass, the PCF would urge a slow, guarded approach. While the benefits of Sunday hunting are numerous, many factors must be considered before the addition of Sundays to a particular season is implemented. The PCF trusts that the PGC would weigh all factors with due diligence before adding additional potential high harvest days to a season.

While this issue is currently controlled by the state legislature, the Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation would like the Pennsylvania Game Commission’s Board of Commissioners (BOC) to consider passing a formal resolution that supports our state’s General Assembly, through legislation, relinquishing regulatory control of Sunday hunting and passing the torch to our state’s game agency. This opportunity has never been better and the time for action is now. If this resolution is passed at a PGC meeting, a clear message will be sent to our representatives that the PGC is prepared and willing to assume this responsibility. Again, the PCF urges the PGC’s BOC to pass this resolution in support of regulatory control. The future of hunting in Pennsylvania would benefit immensely from this potential action.

Thank you for your time and consideration in this important matter.”







18 Comments to 'Crossbows and Sunday hunting'
E.N. Woodcock
March 13, 2011
Well thought out and reasoned approach.

dpms
March 13, 2011
The PGC’s BOC has a history of punting the issue to the legislature. Currently the legislature is looking fo the PGC to want it. Passig a resolution supporting regulatory control is a must do step. The legislature is asking for it.

Why a game agency would not want regulatory control is beyond me. It would not be a mandate for hunting on Sunday and they could do with it as they please.

Every sporting organization in this state needs to voice thier opinions on regulatory control to the PGC and who should have it. The BOC needs to hear it from the orgs and their members, not to mention the hunters of this state.

Landmancraig
March 13, 2011
Roxanne,
Does the atali group support sunday hunting too? hahha

The truth
March 13, 2011
No to sunday hunting. Enough deer have been slaughtered even without it. Time to go the other direction and allow the herd to grow some.

dpms
March 13, 2011
“Sunday hunting” is not what this particular issue is. The BOC needs to know that hunters support game agencies regulating hunting, which may or may not include Sundays, not politicians.

BillyP
March 14, 2011
Yes…we need to realize adding Sundays is not the issue here. Nor is adding days. The legislature can already add Sundays. The issue is who should have regulatory control, game agencies or politicians.

The PGC getting regulatory control does not add any Sundays to our seasons. Folks can lobby the legislature now for just that. All that would change is folks would have to lobby the PGC.

No one is saying that Sundays will be added. All this is, is a reasonable chance to allow our game agency to manage game seven days a week and not six. Sundays may or may not be added, just as it is now.

The truth
March 15, 2011
It doesnt matter what YOU THINK is the issue, all effects of your “issue” need to be closely examined and thought out. You want everyone to overlook all the very likely ugly things involved here, and only focus on the good.

Thats being nearsighted and foolish imho.

Then again maybe not. Its no big secret that some Extreme interest groups would like to see even more deer slaughtered from our already dwindling herd.

The truth
March 15, 2011
Pgc is far more likely to give us sunday hunting than the legislature. The legislators have proven they arent likely to, we can see this by looking at over 100 years of history.

Pgc is likely to as they dont have as much opposing political heat to take on the issue as legislators do from fellow legislators and nonhunting public.

Pgc would also see this as another way to kill alot more deer alot faster. And as we know, they are all too much for anything like that.

Joe Basile
March 15, 2011
For a first time I agree with the Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation .

The PCF feels very strongly that the issue of Sunday hunting is a “seasons and bag limits” issue and that the PGC should have regulatory control.

Our organization also believes that allowing hunting seven days of the week will provide much needed opportunities for those who struggle to find the time to enjoy our sport. With hunter numbers decreasing and our youth being subjected to many distractions, Sunday hunting will help to slow the loss and bring sporting families further together on the weekends.

My dissagreement: “Our organization believes that the inclusion of crossbows into our archery seasons has resulted in positive gains in both areas.”

How, with over 30% of the archery harvasts the past two seasons?

I do commend and admire the PCF on their support of the PGC!

The truth
March 15, 2011
You dont make much sense joe. You say support pgc and trust them, yet you yapped about herd decimation that was on its way with the crossbows. And even though everyone didnt rush out and grab a crossbow, and the wholesale slaughter you predicted did not come about, youre still complaining about it…

Yet you think others should trust pgc when it comes to decision making about adding high harvest days to the rifle and other seasons that would be in effect for many hundreds of thousands of hunters??

You are not making alot of sense joe.

Could it be that you were just against crossbows, but want to hunt on sundays, and neither position was ever based on the resource? Cause thats what im seeing here.

BillyP
March 15, 2011
Why do you feel if Sundays were handed over to the PGC the next day every licensed hunter would be combing the woods with a weapon…nothing may change…or maybe just add small game on Sundays, either way its about another CHOICE we could have, if you dont want to hunt sundays DONT!…But why shouldnt the PGC have control of 7 days instead of 6..Like everyone has said, this doesnt mean Sunday would be hunted anytime soon, but why let the politicians regulate it…

BillyP
March 15, 2011
I can respect that you are not in favor of Sunday hunting. I find it difficult trying to understand hunters not wanting our game agency in control of it. It is the right thing to do. Our game agency should have regulatory control. Could care less why the legislature is considering a change of heart.

The PGC could get regulatory control and do nothing with it but they would have it where it belongs.

Polls actually show 3/5 hunters in favor of “Sunday hunting”. Specify that to who should have regulatory control and the numbers are higher.

Thetruth
March 16, 2011
Bill, please dont cite me ridiculous poll results for the environmentalist/pgc message board hpa. Please dont insult my intelligence.

“Why do you feel if Sundays were handed over to the PGC the next day every licensed hunter would be combing the woods with a weapon”

Same reason currently they are out there on Saturdays “combing the woods”. No work. No school.

“But why shouldnt the PGC have control of 7 days instead of 6..”

Because that 7th day is adding more high participation work days to a pgc “deer plan” thats extreme and an agency that most of us simply do not trust, including many of those that do support sunday hunting.

And while i understand what youre saying…yes…we should be able to expect our game management agency to do the right things, just like most other states…but we cannot and thats been proven. Thats also why they are not getting a fee increase.

And no, im not content to say ‘oh well, maybe they wont screw us with sundays in deer season’.

Some of us were already fooled once by the little bald guy, and the replacement is clearly cut from the same cloth where the truth is concerned.

Joe Basile
March 16, 2011
“You dont make much sense joe. You say support pgc and trust them, yet you yapped about herd decimation that was on its way with the crossbows.”-the Truth

I am also a devote Catholic although I don’t agree with all the Vatican preaches. I love my wife of 30 years, although one time we did have a disagreement. I don’t see the word decimate in my original post. Thirty four percent of the harvest during archery season, before the rut, seems significant to me. Just mho.

Again I admire the support the FCH has for the PGC. I also am all for the promotion of new hunters, although not at the expense of resourses and sound biological findings. I hope I am just being my paranoid self.

dpms
March 16, 2011
Hey Joe,

Again thanks for the positive words. On your note about the 34%. Realize that antlerless deer are also being harvested during archery seasons. As long as does remain legal targets for archers there is no worry about harvest before or during the rut.

And, archery harvest as a percentage of the total harvest has been rising for some time. It is a trend not only here but nationwide.

Joe Basile
March 17, 2011
Dmp, the antlerless deer are the creatures I am worried about. If you are saying this can be managed with tag allotments, I can’t argue. Certainly two years of over 30% crossbow harvest in archery season is hardly a trend. All I am saying is for the PGC to keep looking at this for trends and patterns. With record book buck, healthier deer, and, more forest regeneration in most of Pennsylvania, I’ll go with their science.

The truth
March 23, 2011
“With record book buck, healthier deer, and, more forest regeneration in most of Pennsylvania, I’ll go with their science.”

According to “their science”, when is all this going to start, since its already been a decade and according to the audit and pgcs own data, the regeneration has NOT improved, in fact according to the audit the overall statewide percentage of regeneration has DECREASED slightly (you can see the audit on the Pa legislative budget and finacne committee page).

Herd health didnt improve either according to pgcs own data, the breeding timing, and embryo counts have not changed AT ALL. You can verify that for yourself on pgcs annual reports, likes to can be found on their website.

The truth
March 23, 2011
“If you are saying this can be managed with tag allotments, I can’t argue.”

I can. All you need to do is look at the majority of the units buck harvests in 2005 and compare them to now to see the “allotments” caused more reduction and not stabilization as was supposed to be the case.

ORIGINAL: S-10

#1 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF GAME TO HUNT
#2 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF PLACES TO HUNT

Sunday hunting will not increase the amount of game available
Many landowners say they will post their property if Sunday hunting is passed

Explain how allowing Sunday hunting is going to positively effect the top two reasons for people dropping out of the sport.

 
The only probelm with that arguement is a psychological term known as "scarcity mentality."  Scarcity mentality is when people think, no matter what, that there is never enough for them, no matter the amount.
 
A prime example would be the steelhead fishery in Erie.  Ask a representative group, not just those that post on these boards, but those along the stream, if there are too many steelhead and the answer will be "no" a majority of the time.  Some would even ask for more.  Ask if they should be able to fish private waters and the answer will be "yes" a majority of the time because "we bought a license and those are our fish."  In other words there is a lack of (game) fish and and a lack of places to fish.  Even when there are plenty of both.
 
An unfiltered, non double back-checked survey is a dangerous thing.

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

Just keep in mind even though deer hunting is still #1 in Pa..

the lack of game complaint also applied to small game species...

 
See my response to S-10 on scarcity mentality for an explanation.
 
But to carry the small gam eidea a little further, I can see where some would complain about the lack of it in comparison to before.  Take pheasants for an example.  Not only was there a healthy "wild" pheasant population in parts of PA back in the late 70's and early 80's, but the PGC, often in association with sportsman's clubs, etc., also stocked around a million pheasants per year.  During that same time period, when it was roosters only, PA ranked often in the top five pheasant states, right up there with South Dakota, Iowa, Nebraska, and the like.
 
Today, the habitat for the wild birds is all but gone and so are they, except in some isolated pockets that thse that know them protect like gold.  In addition, the PGC has cut stocking to around 100,000 birds -- that is a 90% reduction.  So by comparison, there is a lack of pheasants.  There are not only fewer of them, but they are stocked in few places resulting in few hunters being able to access them.
 
I have not seen a lack of grouse -- they are cyclic in nature and always have been.  Some years you get 10 -20 flushes per hour, so years you get one. 
 
We used ot run begale up until about 15 years ago and never had an issue finding rabbits.  I can't say I have a real feel for them now, but often see a rabbit or two while pheasant hunting, so I imagine a hunter with a good dog could have a fairly good go of it.
 
 

If legislation does pass, the PCF would urge a slow, guarded approach.

LOL. Slow approach for Sunday hunting but not adding a new arm to a 6 week season.

Ain't readin' any further.

Not being a smart arse, just an inquiring mind, and since I don't archery hunt, it makes no real difference to me, but did the inclusion of crossbows increase the harvest and if so, by how much with respect to raw numbers and percentage?

ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

If legislation does pass, the PCF would urge a slow, guarded approach.

LOL. Slow approach for Sunday hunting but not adding a new arm to a 6 week season.

Can't speak for them currently as I am no longer a officer.  During the crossbow debates, the PCF felt that there were no valid concerns that warranted a slow guarded approach to full inclusion. Turns out it became a non-issue cept for the diehard haters.

The Sunday issue is much more complex with valid concerns, IMO.  I tend to feel the current ledadership of the PCF recognizes those concerns and that is why they are urging a guarded approach to ease any transition that may occur.  Again, not speaking for them.

Non-issue, uh huh. Not only did it only take one year for their legalization to ruin more than one hunt of my hunting party, it also caused my taxidermist to lose a good hunting property as the crossgunners came in and put "texas style treestand box blinds" in a bunch of fields.. like that were rifle hunting (). My taxidermist, "the diehard" hater" was considering buying one before that happened. I don't have to turn people against them.. the users of them are doing a fine job. That's what happens when you introduce a functional shortcut into something that is not easy. A lot of them stepping into the field were rifle only hunters. They don't kill deer because they don't know how to bowhunt. They sure do f it up for those that do. Least the amish don't have them yet.

One thing that is not being measured is quality of the hunt. Keep talkin out yer arse like you know what's going on statewide. As I stated before, everything is coming true that I thought would. One more thing to complete my predictions and that is crossgunners doing drives. Yet to see that one. It's coming I'm sure!.

ORIGINAL: DarDys

Not being a smart arse, just an inquiring mind, and since I don't archery hunt, it makes no real difference to me, but did the inclusion of crossbows increase the harvest and if so, by how much with respect to raw numbers and percentage?

The new age archery participation people are fortunate that hunters numbers continue to decrease.

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

What percentage of your time deer hunting dpms, is on private property ?

Probably 90% private, 10%SGL.  50% of my private property is land enrolled in public cooperator programs. 

Bottom line Silver is this.  One side feared the facts while the other side embraced them. Now we have data and not assumptions and speculation.

What you relay are experiences. We all them them, good and bad.  For every one of your negative experiences I have a positive one made possible by crossbow inclusion. In the position I once held, I was fortunate to hear 100's of positive experiences. 

There bad apples in every bunch. That won;t prevent me from not supporting pro-hunting intitiatives becuase some may abuse them.

ORIGINAL: dpms

Bottom line Silver is this.  One side feared the facts while the other side embraced them. No we have data and not assumptions and speculation.

What you relay are experiences. We all them them, good and bad.  For every one of your negative experiences I have a positive one made possible by crossbow inclusion. In the position I once held, I was fortunate to hear 100's of positive experiences. 

There bad apples in every bunch. That won;t prevent me from not supporting pro-hunting intitiatives becuase some may abuse them.

Why do you hunt in archery dpms ? Is it because deer need managed ? Because you want to be part of a harvest number ? That's what you act like.

No, it's because of the experience. People hunt archery for reasons beyond killing. When that experience is lessened, hunting itself will hurt. If I solely wanted to kill a deer with no desire to hunt, I would only hunt rifle season and that' when I'd be on vacation. My fears came true about crossbows in archery season and that will be 100% fulfilled once I see guys driving deer using crossbows. I don't ever expect us to agree but I'd like for you to stop saying this is a non-issue. That is the bottom line.

You don't need to answer my 10% question above. I already know the answer. Your bread and butter time is spent on private property because of the quality of experience. Funny that your actions agree with what I'm saying. Your attempt is ignore that here is shallow. Your attempt to try to make this discussion into a like/dislike position is shallow as well.

The data and facts are saying we are losing hunters. Some say lack of game. Lack of places to hunt. Perhaps part of that equation is quality of experience because of other hunters too. There were always people complaining about hunters walking in on them in rifle season. It's a busy season .. that's the way it is. It can be a great benefit too because it moves locked-down deer. Doesn't work that way in archery. Never heard much about disrepect in archery. That is, until crossbows were put into the SRAs. Even folks here that hunt the SRA saw a rise in interference due to crossbows. They aren't all haters. They just call it as they see it. It's okay if you don't like it. The truth is bothersome at times.

Good luck to you too.

ORIGINAL: SilverKype
 
My fears came true about crossbows in archery season and that will be 100% fulfilled once I see guys driving deer using crossbows.

 
 
It is a frequent occurance in my neck of the woods and has been since they implemented x-guns.  I am surprised that you have not seen it yet, but I have feeling it will be coming to a neighborhood near you in the not so distant future.

ORIGINAL: wayne c

The only probelm with that arguement is a psychological term known as "scarcity mentality." Scarcity mentality is when people think, no matter what, that there is never enough for them, no matter the amount.

I often agree with alot of what you say at times Dards, but if you think that is the predominant factor in why hunters think there are fewer DEER than there should be, you have just lost your mind. Way to try to throw everyone that feels that way under the bus to support your own agenda. Not trying to be a wise-arse here, but thats exactly what you have done.

To imply that people dont have a legit concern with the reductions which have caused "the deer wars" and everything that entails is absolutely ludicrous! And if it was found that was the #1 reason for hunter to discontinue buying licenses (or even if it had been 2 or 3) then its an issue.

Silverkype, i agree completely. While Ive come to grips with crossbow inclusion which i had opposed, I think it funny when others say "see" no ill effects, when its very easy to do sitting in the computer chair with no evidence one way or another. A good hunting bud quit hunting a property he had hunted with great success for years due to 3 crossbowers moving in and hunting quite sloppily. Walking around during key periods, smoking, hunting 6 ft up in wide open woods.... Clearly never archery hunted before and never hunted the property archery season before crossbows were legal.

Not meaning to start crossbow battle, but just showing how one may not see things as "everything just fine since the inclusion" as another might.

 
There are many decaffinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing and I suggest to try some.
 
Nowhere did I suggest that scarcity mentality was predominate in anything, especially deer.  As you are well aware, I was against AR and HR right from Jump Street because what I predicted would happen did.  Why?  Because I had a very up close and personal look at the inner workings of what was going to happen well before it did.  And now you are jumping down my throat because I stated what is known to be a pschological fact when it comes to surveys just because it does not fall in lock step with your continued agenda which, quite frankly seems to be boardering on rage?
 
I have no adgenda, I just don't have blinders on and can look at issues from many different points of view before making an informed, adult decision.
 
What I did write was that when taking a survey or asking the opinion of particpants, the vast majority will say there is not enough of what ever is being inquired about and not to hang one's hat on such a tool.  Ask someone that makes $30 million a year if they want $40 million and the answer will be yes.  As the bait fisherman if they want the less than 5% of streams that are DHALO or FF Only and they will say yes.  Ask the person that has seven weeks vaction if they want 10 and they will says yes.  Ask the guy that just lost the only place they have ever hunted and they will say lack of access.  Ask the person that didn't get a deer, pheasant, turkey, bear limit of walleye, limit of steelhead, if there should be more and they will say yes.  Of course, as I clearly stated, those that typically particpate on these boards may not, but they are a very small subset of the whole.
 
Now go back to arguing with those that have a differing point of view and stop eroding the base that has a similar thought process where deer are concerned.
 
As for your buddy, singlular, not wanting to hunt an area that three, plural, crossbow hunters now hunt -- too bad.  It seems that although these fellows didn't know what they were doing, they were enjoying themselves.  That's three people enjoying themselves, one not.  Almost sounds like "They good of the many outweight the needs of the one" type deal.  He doesn't like it, buy the ground.  Or help them to become better at it.  Oh wait, then they might actually kill one of "his" deer.  Can't have that.  Why?  Scarcity mentality.
 
My wife gave me a little hunting theory lesson the other day by presenting hunting in a manner that I have never realized.  I always looked at hunting through the various lenses of sport, hobby, pursuit, challenge, etc.  She said that she looks at hunting as entertainment.  I never viewed it as such.  Maybe that is why I never understood those that would go years, decades even, without harvesting a deer.  To them hunting was a form of entertainment.  They sucked at it, they were not often successful at it, but they were entertained by it.  Perhaps those three crossbow hunters were not good at what they were doing, but maybe, just maybe they were having the time of their lives because they never got into the whole vertical bow thing and now they could hunt the early season, something that 70% of PA hunters don't do and don't whine about 30% of the bucks being harvested before they even set foot in the woods.  And please save me the "then they should start archery hunting" bit because the same could be said for and special regulation that caters to the vast minority.  There's a reason it is only enjoyed by the minority, the majority don't want to do it.