Dr. Trout
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Sunday Hearing =
Hearing on Sunday Hunting Scheduled for September 15
On Thursday, September 15, the Pennsylvania House Game and Fisheries Committee will hold its second public hearing to consider ending the prohibition on Sunday hunting. This hearing will be held at 6:30 p.m. at the East Allen Township Municipal Building, 5344 Nor-Bath Boulevard; Northampton, PA 18067.
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/20 09:51:15
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http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=7021 Pennsylvania: Hearing on Sunday Hunting Scheduled for September 15 Friday, August 12, 2011 Contact members of the state House Game and Fisheries Committee On Thursday, September 15th, the Pennsylvania House Game and Fisheries Committee will hold its second public hearing to consider ending the prohibition on Sunday hunting. This hearing will be held at 6:30 p.m. at the East Allen Township Municipal Building, 5344 Nor-Bath Boulevard; Northampton, PA 18067. The prohibition on Sunday hunting is an old blue law left on the books in only six states. Hunters pump millions of dollars into habitat restoration and conservation and they are primarily responsible for healthy ecosystems throughout Pennsylvania. Many hunters cannot introduce their children or friends to hunting because Saturday is their only opportunity, and they are competing with the numerous organized sports and other activities. Many hunters - be it young or old, novice or experienced - stop hunting because of the lack of opportunity, both in time and accessible land. The addition of an extra day in the field increases a person’s available time to enjoy our hunting heritage. This will invigorate essential hunter recruitment and retention efforts. Sunday hunting will also bring a much-needed economic boost to rural areas. Every day that hunters are in the field, they spend money on gasoline, food, lodging and the dozens of other incidentals that go along with a day’s hunt. The ripple effect of this spending can have a major impact on a rural town or county. Comprehensive research from the National Shooting Sports Foundation shows that allowing hunting on Sundays in Pennsylvania would generate a total annual economic impact estimated at $764 million and create more than 8,000 jobs. This legislation will clearly help advance and preserve the Keystone State’s rich hunting traditions, while enhancing biodiversity and wildlife populations. Please continue to contact members of the House Game and Fisheries Committee and urge them to support expanding Sunday hunting. Contact information for this committee can be found here. Continue to check www.nraila.org for further updates.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/20 10:42:02
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while enhancing biodiversity Hmmm. And exactly how do they expect that to happen...by killing more DEER maybe?  Gee talk about your conflicting positions!! Link
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/20 10:58:41
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
while enhancing biodiversity
Hmmm. And exactly how do they expect that to happen...by killing more DEER maybe?
Gee talk about your conflicting positions!! Link
Perhaps more would get the opportunity to hunt Sundays where deer are plentiful. The areas that lack deer is not the hunters fault but the PGC's for issuing so many doe tags and having such a long doe season. I know that many would like to have the opportunity to hunt Sunday regardless of what sex deer they hunt or in some cases what species they hunt. The deer slaughter could easily be regulated and still allow Sunday hunting.
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snydje
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/21 19:19:55
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It's time we start thinking about supporting Sunday hunting for what it will provide, an extra day (for the majority of us) to do the thing we love. From what I have read, it appears that the two main issues in opposition to Sunday hunting are the increased deer harvest and the posting of private property.
The PGC didn't need Sunday hunting to reduce the deer herds to their present levels. They accomplished this by allowing two weeks of rifle hunting for antlerless deer and increasing the number of permits allocated. Extra weeks of archery hunting, the use of crossbows, early in-line muzzle loader, etc. all contribute but at a much smaller percentage. The PGC will just adjust the number of permits issued if Sunday hunting is allowed. They did exactly that this year by increasing the number of permits available in WMU that went to the split season, (2A, 2F & 3B). The PGC does not need Sunday hunting to reduce the herd, all they have to do is increase the number of permits issued. Something we as hunters have no control over.
The concerns some have over the posting of private property is a little confusing. Remember, you must have permission from the land owner to legally hunt private property. The owner of one piece of private property I have permission to hunt on has some unusual rules I must follow. If I wish to continue legally hunting there, I must follow his rules. If he doesn't want me hunting on Sundays, I won’t. When asking for permission to hunt, ask if Sunday hunting is allowed. If it’s not allowed, then you can’t legally hunt there on Sundays. Hunting without permission on private property is trespassing and it’s illegal. The debate on removing the moratorium on Sunday hunting should not be about illegal trespassing. One post I read stated a landowner didn’t want hunters coming to his house at 4:30AM on a Sunday to ask for permission to hunt. Knocking on someone’s door at 4:30AM any morning is pretty much a guarantee to get a “NO†answer, (not to mention incredibly dangerous). I personally find Sundays are good days to contact landowners. However, I usually wait until late afternoon to knock on someone’s door. Those are my thoughts.
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/21 19:28:59
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Very good post and I like the way you think. I have to also agree with what you post. Don't know who came up with the idea that an orange army of hunters were going to invade the private property owner on Sunday. Sounds pretty simple to cut back a little on the issue of doe tags also in areas that suffer low numbers. Good post!
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tull66 
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/21 22:02:16
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I just like the fact that he thinks, whether I agree or not.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/21 23:23:11
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'The PGC didn't need Sunday hunting to reduce the deer herds to their present levels." Which is exactly why they didnt push for it previously. They had plenty of tools at their disposal at the time, and as you will recall, they didnt start them all the same year due to lack of need to as well as pr purposes. Now you have a certain amount of hunters having seen all the reductions and failings of the plan...more than previously who havent bought it, you have a smaller herd making it somewhat harder to reduce. And some areas, significantly farther reductions arent likely without adding more "tools". This was known previously, and they no doubt expected to have sunday hunting at some point to help with their plight. Fact of the matter is, they set ridiculously low numerical herd goals across the board previously and you can bet your last dollar that even though they supposedly arent going by them now, they were set previously to achieve much the same as far as their habitat goals etc. So the expected end product shouldnt be all that far off from previously. That would require my unit to be cut in half its present density, and others slashed signficantly as well. They see this as a long term permanent plan and werent concerned with finishing it in 3 or 4 years. "The PGC will just adjust the number of permits issued if Sunday hunting is allowed." No reason at all to believe that to be the case. They have not adjusted appropriately now in many units to account for changing goals, and thats exactly why further reductions were had in the majority of units even since STABILIZATION became the supposed goal. "They did exactly that this year by increasing the number of permits available in WMU that went to the split season, (2A, 2F & 3B)." Yeah thats one helluva point there...  , they RAISED them! lmao. Despite the fact at least one commissioner was promising DECREASES because of the herd reductions that had occurred to this point at least in one of those units. But what does that have to do with proving they are willing to LOWER them significantly when needed? Especially when that hasnt been the case over the last decade for most units. lol. According to pgc the allocation increase was to cover any loss in harvest due to the split season. So = no net gain period. And the previous allocation was continuing to reduce the herd, so forgive me if i dontgo out and do celebratory somersaults in the yard. lmao. "The PGC does not need Sunday hunting to reduce the herd, all they have to do is increase the number of permits issued." Wrong. Here in 2a, all they could sell previously was a ridiculous high 55,000. They tried to go higher (why is unclear, because it was after the goal changed and the data showed continuing decrease to herd) and still barely sold over 55k, so they basically kept it there since. They raised the allocations due to the incoming mentored youth deal this season. Sunday hunting would also appear to be more "acceptable" to many hunters than ridiculously high allocations. Especially some who try to separate the issue, or think its hopeless anyway. Just look at the support even among some of these guys for sunday hunting, that do not support the extent of reduction that we have realized. Me, i dont discriminate. More excess reduction is more excess reduction regardless of if its another 10k tags in a unit or sunday hunting... Killing more deer for the biodiversity seeking ecofreaks. Pgc loves it. I don't. " Something we as hunters have no control over." We have no control over ANYTHING once pgc gets ahold of it. Until then, legislators are concerned about making right decisions because they will get voted out like Levdansky. With pgc, they can do exactly as they like, following whatever agenda they like, and we cant do a thing about it. Im not just speaking of sunday hunting, but any decision making on their part. They are a dcnr puppet and little else. Thats why it will be a sad day in - before i support ANY means for them to kill off more deer and further the agenda. Its malignant enough as is imho.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/21 23:41:50
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/21 23:52:29
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Perhaps Pa should combine the PBFC and the PGC into one DEC such as NY. I agree the PGC is out of control in issuing tags. Every tag available is a possible dead doe regardless what day it is hunted.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/21 23:53:11
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"The concerns some have over the posting of private property is a little confusing."
Not confusing at all when we have the farm bureau telling us straight out that is what they will do! And by posting i mean not permitting hunting. Im not naive enough to believe that everyone single member of the farm bureau will or that everyone outside of the farm bureau will be fine with it. And they dont need or want your or my rationalization of their decisions. Its their property and they dont need good reasons to restrict its use.
There are maleffects to be had, and thats not even debatable. The extent of them may be. And thats what we need to evaluate when making our decision. Does the pros outweigh the cons?
I see there are definately both good points and bad. Do the good outweight the bad? Not in my opinion.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/21 23:58:13
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Yeah, I agree OA. But you get more tags filled with more days. Thats why i Also do not support adding more mondays tuesdays wednesdays thursdays or fridays.. But nonwork/nonschool days would be worse, be they more saturdays or more sundays.
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 00:45:00
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I see your point. Would a shorter season for does maybe be the answer with Sundays included? Say eliminate that early slaughter season with an inline when trees are in full foliage and safety is a concern with rifles being fired. Maybe go to a three day slaughter season the way it was when hunters were once happy and game was plentiful.Hunters would still have a lot of days to hunt bucks or small game including turkeys with Sunday being permitted. I think our game issues need to be regulated other than through the PGC.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 10:17:24
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I see your point. Would a shorter season for does maybe be the answer with Sundays included? Absolutely. But there is no guarantee that will happen. In fact, I believe it highly unlikely. In fact, one of the biggest supporters for the proposal, dpms, even said the same on another board. That he did not think changes would be made initially at least, because pgc likes to evaluate things and would probably keep things as they are for a few years. I agree they would keep everything the same, but simply for added reduction. When they saw that in units reduction was still occurring although stabilization was the goal after their preset 5 year period...They did NOT adjust tags, or make any attempt to stem the ongoing reductions or to recover the losses to get back to the level they were supposed to stabilize at 5 years prior even though they themselves approved the goal of stabilization almost statewide, and it was also voted for on some of the cac and approved by stakeholders..yet no dice.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/22 10:18:16
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 15:18:13
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I understand what your saying and also agree. Do you think that by allowing hunters to hunt Sunday they would feel the empty slots from the hunters that have dropped out of the sport as license continue to drop? I guess scary part is we probably won't know till and if it happens and an estimated doe kill is calculated. Another issue is can one actually believe those numbers.
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snydje
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 15:29:39
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quote:
I see your point. Would a shorter season for does maybe be the answer with Sundays included? "Absolutely. But there is no guarantee that will happen. In fact, I believe it highly unlikely." Wayne, I agree. Unfortunately, the PGC can add extra days and more permits as they see fit. You mentioned WMU 2A. They added not just days but weeks to the antler-less season there. Again, they did not need Sundays to do this. If they decide to further reduce the herd they can. I don't think we should combine the issue of Sunday hunting with a reduced deer herd. "The concerns some have over the posting of private property is a little confusing." "Not confusing at all when we have the farm bureau telling us straight out that is what they will do!" The Farm Bureau will not tell us who actually says this. They claim they want to protect the privacy of their members. I find it illogical that a landowner would close his previously open property completely if one more day of hunting a week is allowed. However, it is completely his decision to do so as its his PRIVATE land. Will it happen? It might. To the level we have been told by some? I don't think so. I suggest we all ask the landowners ourselves and if they don't want Sunday hunting, volunteer to buy and post "No Sunday Hunting" signs around his property. quote:
"They did exactly that this year by increasing the number of permits available in WMU that went to the split season, (2A, 2F & 3B)." "Yeah thats one helluva point there..., they RAISED them! lmao. " The PGC claims that fewer days to hunt requires more tags to fill the harvest quotas. The PGC received extra revenue by selling more permits. If Sundays were added, a high participation day, they would have to sell less permits to accomplish their harvest goals. It follows that Sunday hunting would actually reduce the number of permits needed. Again, the PGC does not need Sundays to reduce the herd if that's what they desire.
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DarDys
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 15:38:17
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ORIGINAL: tull66
I just like the fact that he thinks, whether I agree or not.
Thinking is overrated. Don't beleive me, ask Doc. 
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 15:50:25
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A hunter still has to have permission to hunt private land posted or not. Seems pretty simple that a farmer /landowner could permit six days of hunting and still have the "option" of granting permission on the seventh day. I know of a few farms in SW pa that farmers wish hunting was allowed on their farms 24/7. They are farmers and yes they do support Sunday hunting.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 16:02:23
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I know of quite a few lands that have been posted directly due to the overkill. There are a few "farmers" here and there in every unit that would like to see all deer dead. They also have plenty of options such as red tag and ability do shoot deer 24/7 for crop damage. Hardly as if we need to wreck the unit....or state for the few poor poor downtrodden deer overwhelmed farmers! lol. Especially in this day when the herd has already been reduced significantly.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 16:11:24
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"Wayne, I agree. Unfortunately, the PGC can add extra days and more permits as they see fit. You mentioned WMU 2A. They added not just days but weeks to the antler-less season there. Again, they did not need Sundays to do this. If they decide to further reduce the herd they can. I don't think we should combine the issue of Sunday hunting with a reduced deer herd." If they decide to take the herd to the previous stated goals of (going by memory like 12 dpsm) in the unit they could not come close to that under current season structure etc here with all the private land. Not possible. Also not possible in several other units. And im not talking urban units where the reduction may be justified. I can also provide links showing that audubon & dcnr do not think that the current system will kill enough deer. DCNR wanted dmap expansion to private land and got it. They wanting pgc look into baiting, they did, and found it didnt raise harvest rates, they wanted continued high allocations and got it, and they also asked for SUNDAY HUNTING. Which is the only reason this is now being considered. here is a little snippet that i found on another site: This is what the Sunday hunting push is all about
This was statement from several years ago, released in 2004. Cindy Adams Dunn of Audubon & DCNR:
"Improved cooperation among state agencies and conservation groups and landowner groups; extensive efforts to open more land to hunting; expanded education focusing on forestry issues; and the inception of new, and sometimes revolutionary, hunting laws to achieve larger annual deer kills."
"DCNR was proud to achieve “green certification†of its state forestland. Certification under FSC (Forest Certification System) standards indicates Pennsylvania is managing those forests in a sustainable manner. One condition: DCNR must address deer overabundance."
" If hunters are to remain the primary controlling force over Pennsylvania’s whitetail herd, they need the proper tools to fix the problem. We’re hoping the PGC listens to possible game law changes being aired, such as hunting over bait; expanded DMAP provisions; “group permits†allowing more individual kills; longer seasons; Sunday hunting; and more license allocations."
Since then, If i recall correctly, Pgc experimented in the sras with hunting over bait to gauge the effectiveness, and said it didnt improve hunter efficiency and also concerns with disease. Of course they expanded dmap as commanded, mentored youth will now allow the "tag sharing" at least to some extent and will allow more sales towards more hunters actually willing to use tags. The political atmosphere and hunter outrage proabably would not allow for something so extreme as true "party hunting", the allocations are nationally famous for being so high and now that leaves one more of the suggestions/orders to put into play.....
"quote:
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 16:17:09
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"The PGC claims that fewer days to hunt requires more tags to fill the harvest quotas." That would be true if the harvest quotas stayed the same!! Or if the goal was REDUCTION. But they should NOT have the same harvest quota if the herd is not to be further reduced! If you reduced a herd with majority of the reduction occurring through years of using 30,000 to 40,000 tags... now have a herd 1/3 or 1/2 smaller in a unit-- you dont go to 55,000 with same number of days and not expect further reduction... when stabilization is supposed to be the goal! lmao. If the goal is stabilization or herd increase you use LESS Tags....Not MORE TAGS than you used to reduce the herd the year before! No matter HOW you look at it. This aint rocket science folks. And as for this unit, they increased the allocation and said it was the same effect to herd as the one week season with 55k tags. 55k tags was out of this friggin world ridiculous, and Rosenberry stated the herd had been reduced further over the last 5 years with that 55k even though the goal was stabilization. SO why in gods name would our allocation be 55k or a higher allocation + lower day count that amounts according to them, to the exact same thing!!?  
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/22 16:29:19
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 16:17:53
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
I know of quite a few lands that have been posted directly due to the overkill. There are a few "farmers" here and there in every unit that would like to see all deer dead. They also have plenty of options such as red tag and ability do shoot deer 24/7 for crop damage. Hardly as if we need to wreck the unit....or state for the few poor poor downtrodden deer overwhelmed farmers! lol. Especially in this day when the herd has already been reduced significantly.
That they thing they have choice to regulate the use of their land. In some areas yes land should be shut off to hunting in other areas it needs to be open . Key here is choice. Hunters also need choice as to what days they have an opportunity to hunt.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 16:21:44
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"Hunters also need choice as to what days they have an opportunity to hunt. " Hunters didnt "NEED" Sunday hunting for the last 100 years, through most of which we have had the highest hunter numbers in the country. What we need is proper management. Monday through Saturday. Then and only then am i interested in Sundays being PROPERLY managed. But hey, thats just how i see it.  I also didnt say i supported lands being "shut off from hunting". In fact its ashame that landowners feel they need to make that choice. But as things are, I cannot say as i blame them. And as i said, those that feel they should have more deer killed, already have tons of tools available to do so. Unfortunately for pgc & dcnr, not enough do for their liking, and it also wouldnt apply to "their" public lands. Course the only places around here where there are possibly 'too many' deer are on those highly restricted and off limits lands where sunday wont matter anyway.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/22 16:30:44
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 16:46:20
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Hunters didn't "NEED" Sunday hunting for the last 100 years, through most of which we have had the highest hunter numbers in the country. Exactly and now that numbers are dropping and our sport is shrinking mostly including youths maybe it time for choice ? Again some areas don't need to kill more deer and some do. WV has some counties that hunters have a choice of what day they want to hunt while other counties don't. Thing is all hunters in WV have choice. Some just have to travel thats all. If Pa doesn't get on board maybe more hunters will hunt out of state to expand their hunting time on days off. Ohio WV and NY all have Sunday hunting.
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S-10
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 17:02:21
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#1 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF GAME TO HUNT
#2 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF PLACES TO HUNT
Sunday hunting will not increase the amount of game available
Many landowners say they will post their property if Sunday hunting is passed
Explain how allowing Sunday hunting is going to positively effect the top two reasons for people dropping out of the sport.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 17:05:23
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"Exactly and now that numbers are dropping and our sport is shrinking mostly including youths maybe it time for choice ? " Yes. The "choice" for me that may actually realistically effect recruitment and retention...PROPER MANAGEMENT. That doesnt mean giving the agency that is screwing things up even more rope to hang us with. "Again some areas don't need to kill more deer and some do." And again, for those that feel otherwise...they have plenty of tools. you dont continue to reduce an entire unit that has already been significantly reduced with too many tags or more opportunities. Then again you know this when you arent pushing for sunday hunting anyway. WV has some counties that hunters have a choice of what day they want to hunt while other counties don't. Sounds kinda stupid to me. Using sunday as a "tool"? Why shouldnt it be everywhere if they want it legalized? They can cut the tags or season lengths. If you are gonna legalize it, why on earth should it be any differnet than monday through friday? As you know, my issue isnt with it being "different" than Monday through Friday, as i said, i dont support adding more time, and dont care what days of the week it is.
"If Pa doesn't get on board maybe more hunters will hunt out of state to expand their hunting time on days off."
Many already are. And most cite the deer situation as the reason for it. Will more stick around if its simply one more day to see even less deer then previously? Besides, why should this be a concern when it wasnt for 100 years, through much of which we have had the nations highest hunter numbers.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/22 17:06:49
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 17:08:42
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ORIGINAL: S-10
#1 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF GAME TO HUNT
#2 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF PLACES TO HUNT
Sunday hunting will not increase the amount of game available
Many landowners say they will post their property if Sunday hunting is passed
Explain how allowing Sunday hunting is going to positively effect the top two reasons for people dropping out of the sport.
Is that nationwide? Can you throw the link in to where you read those claims? I would be interested in reading the report.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 17:08:47
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#1 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF GAME TO HUNT
#2 reason for hunters dropping out of the sport of hunting = LACK OF PLACES TO HUNT Yep. And i didnt really need pgcs survey to tell us that. That is 2 reasons to oppose sunday hunting. Sunday hunting WILL = less game(deer), and it will equal more posted land. How much is debatable, but more nonetheless.
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S-10
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 17:14:30
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Can you throw the link in to where you read those claims? I would be interested in reading the report. That information came out of the June BOC meeting and was the result of a hunter survey conducted by the PGC. It was PA specific. I think you can still access the video of the meeting on the PGC website.
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wayne c
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 17:32:59
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One meeting video from this year was pointed to quite a few times by people to show others what a fool boop made of rosenberry, by pointing out his deception with the harvest rates for rifle being used across the board causing a 5% error, bloating the buck harvest.. And a couple of other things that did not make them look good at all... That was NOT a good meeting for pgc pr to say the least! lol. The video was there for months, but has been removed. Dont know if that is why, but I am unable to find it now, only this message:
'Unfortunately, pennsylvaniagamecommission has been permanently deleted. All of pennsylvaniagamecommission's videos will no longer be available." Not only is it gone, but so is the other.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/22 17:37:37
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Sunday Hearing =
2011/08/22 17:39:06
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I guess I won't be seeing the video now. Oh well thanks anyways.
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