dpms
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Dr. Trout
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/21 21:26:44
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My guess at results...
The G&F committee will continue to prees the PGC to ask for the "right" to make the decision and the PGC will not ask for it...
as I keep saying = the politicians are not going to have a straight up vote on allowing Sunday hunting... if they get the PGC to ask they will more than likely allow them to make the call.. but I sure hope the PGC does not fall for that trap...
In short ===
the meeting will be a waste of time as for any results or change ... the politicians will use the fact they held a meeting to try to impress some folks for the November elections.... but will not make a move to allow Sunday hunting BECAUSE of the fall elections....
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/21 21:36:29
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Kinda think that is how it is gonna play out as well. I have been told that the BOC may offer a resolution in support of regulatory control at the June meeting. Unfortantely, several BOC members continue to feel that politicians are better equipped to manage our wildlife resources. Unless the BOC is unamimous in their support, I do not see a resolution being introduced.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/21 23:51:49
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several BOC members continue to feel that politicians are better equipped to manage our wildlife resources Are you sure it is that and not they realize that if the PGC makes the call it could back-fire with posted land, less hunters, etc ????? I think a few realize that it could really hurt the PGC if they made such a decision... I do not think that one person want politicians making game code decisions...but with hunters split on the subject of Sunday hunting I sure don't want the PGC making the call on this one... not until and IF there is more support from hunters and non-hunters for allowing Sunday hunting... Making Sunday hunting legal at this time will be like hitting the bee's nest with a big stick and hoping to not get stung and I would rather not see the PGC get the sting ...... guess I'd better send more BOC E-mails advising not to push the Sunday hunting issue ... let the politicians do it....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/05/21 23:53:34
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 09:49:48
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Making Sunday hunting legal at this time will be like hitting the bee's nest with a big stick and hoping to not get stung and I would rather not see the PGC get the sting ......
guess I'd better send more BOC E-mails advising not to push the Sunday hunting issue ... let the politicians do it....
Again Doc, this is precisely the point I have been trying to pound home. Sunday hunting is already legal. Politicans control what species not our game agency. We as hunters should be united to transfer regulatory contol of it to the PGC. If you oppose the expansion of Sunday hunting for the reasons you state, you can still send all of your letters and emails to the BOC. A regulatory tansfer in no way equates to expnasion of Sunday hunting. The PGC would have to propose changes, gather input and pass it through two meetings. Most likely they would address one specie or season at a time if they choose to expand it. I really don't care if there is backlash if and when they ever expand it if a regulatory transfer occurs. Neither should you. Our game agency is best equipped to manage our wildlife resources here and in every other state. Politicians are not. That is the bottom line. It is dangerous to perpetuate this old and outdated system we have here in Pa. Politicians have no business in the busines of controlling Sunday hunting and hunters and those that support hunters rights have no business supportig politicians regulating hunting. The ultimate backlash you fear has the potential of being way bigger with politicians controlling our seasons. The fallout from a regulatory transfer will be a blip on the radar. If the PGC did choose to expand Sunday hunting there would be another blip. Be progressive, Doc. Open your eyes to the facts that are out there with 2/3 of the USA having no issues and the other 1/3 fearful of the boogeyman that is never in the closet when the door is opened.
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 11:01:18
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Just so I have a clear understanding of your position.
Do you oppose game agencies regulating Sunday hunting?
Do you oppose the expansion of Sunday hunting opportunties?
Are you in favor of politicians regulating hunting?
Do you feel that a regulatory transfer equates to the expansion of Sunday hunting into all of our existing seasons?
Do you feel that Sunday hunting has hurt hunters or the sport of hunting in other states?
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RSB
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 11:02:55
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ORIGINAL: dpms
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Making Sunday hunting legal at this time will be like hitting the bee's nest with a big stick and hoping to not get stung and I would rather not see the PGC get the sting ......
guess I'd better send more BOC E-mails advising not to push the Sunday hunting issue ... let the politicians do it....
Again Doc, this is precisely the point I have been trying to pound home. Sunday hunting is already legal. Politicans control what species not our game agency.
We as hunters should be united to transfer regulatory contol of it to the PGC. If you oppose the expansion of Sunday hunting for the reasons you state, you can still send all of your letters and emails to the BOC. A regulatory tansfer in no way equates to expnasion of Sunday hunting. The PGC would have to propose changes, gather input and pass it through two meetings. Most likely they would address one specie or season at a time if they choose to expand it.
I really don't care if there is backlash if and when they ever expand it if a regulatory transfer occurs. Neither should you. Our game agency is best equipped to manage our wildlife resources here and in every other state. Politicians are not. That is the bottom line. It is dangerous to perpetuate this old and outdated system we have here in Pa. Politicians have no business in the busines of controlling Sunday hunting and hunters and those that support hunters rights have no business supportig politicians regulating hunting.
The ultimate backlash you fear has the potential of being way bigger with politicians controlling our seasons. The fallout from a regulatory transfer will be a blip on the radar. If the PGC did choose to expand Sunday hunting there would be another blip. Be progressive, Doc. Open your eyes to the facts that are out there with 2/3 of the USA having no issues and the other 1/3 fearful of the boogeyman that is never in the closet when the door is opened.
I don’t believe that the states with Sunday hunting have no issues. I believe there is a reason Pennsylvania has both more hunters and private land open to public hunting than most of, if not all of, those states that allow Sunday hunting. In many of those Sunday hunting state you are lucky if you can find a place to hunt unless you are willing to spend a ton of money to pay the landowner. How many of those factors are connected to Sunday hunting? I don’t know but I would hate to guess wrong on it and find out the hard way with less hunters and land for them to hunt on. R.S. Bodenhorn
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bingsbaits
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 11:09:52
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That point doesn't address the question of who should regulate it.
Politicians should not be in control of hunting seasons at all.
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S-10
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 11:30:20
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Politicans already control the PGC through appointing the members of the BOC and controlling the finances.
The only reason for this being an issue now is the premise that the current BOC will approve Sunday hunting if given the chance.
I don't often agree with Doc and RSB but I have hunted a dozen states with Sunday hunting and they did lose some land as a result based on my trying to get permission from landowners and our resulting conversations.
DPMS would make a good lawyer but the verdict in my mind is still leave it and Sunday hunting alone and half the hunters agree. The PGC has enough negative press at the present to get involved in this one.
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 13:38:58
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ORIGINAL: RSB
I believe there is a reason Pennsylvania has both more hunters and private land open to public hunting than most of, if not all of, those states that allow Sunday hunting. In many of those Sunday hunting state you are lucky if you can find a place to hunt unless you are willing to spend a ton of money to pay the landowner. How many of those factors are connected to Sunday hunting? I don’t know but I would hate to guess wrong on it and find out the hard way with less hunters and land for them to hunt on.
R.S. Bodenhorn
While I respect your opinion, I find it difficult to understand a PGC employee or a game agency not fighting to get regulatory control of Sunday hunting. There is no way to justify it other than not wanting the extra headache the process will bring. I would want that headache as opposed to politicians regulating hunting which is what is happening in this state. The are headaches with just about every change. With time it will away as everyone adjusts. Sunday is but one day of the week, as far as game management is concerned it is no different than Saturdays or Mondays. This is a season and bag limits issue and nothing more. The PGC has that responsibility and should want it. The PGC needs to fight to do the job they are in charge of doing. To not want regulatory control is weak and short sighted in the long run. Ain't gonna sugar coat it. It is what it is.
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 13:40:29
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ORIGINAL: bingsbaits
That point doesn't address the question of who should regulate it.
Politicians should not be in control of hunting seasons at all.
Yep. All of those opposed including hunters, land owners, biologists, RSB, S-10, Wayne C, Dr. Trout and the non-hunting public can lobby the PGC's BOC instead of the general assembly.
post edited by dpms - 2011/05/22 13:41:04
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 13:45:17
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ORIGINAL: S-10
I don't often agree with Doc and RSB but I have hunted a dozen states with Sunday hunting and they did lose some land as a result based on my trying to get permission from landowners and our resulting conversations.
There are ups and downs with every change. I admit to and recognize all of them. Some only use one side to bolster a discussion. The issue here is regulatory control. With time that control may or may not equate to Sunday hunting expansion.
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S-10
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 16:00:32
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The issue here is regulatory control. With time that control may or may not equate to Sunday hunting expansion. It's interesting that regulatory control wasn't an issue during the eight year tenure of the last BOC. If I remember correctly most of that board was not to interested in Sunday hunting. 
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/22 18:28:09
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ORIGINAL: S-10
It's interesting that regulatory control wasn't an issue during the eight year tenure of the last BOC. If I remember correctly most of that board was not to interested in Sunday hunting.
Maybe for some it wasn't an issue. I believe Palone supported regulatory control. Not sure about Hill and Schleiden. As you point out, the current state of affairs is ripe for some movement. As with most things that involve our state legislature, I am not holding my breath but will fight the good fight anyway.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 11:36:58
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Here's a point I have not mentioned but hear it from locals... The original "Sunday Blue Laws" were put in place by politicians many will look at the PGC making hunting lawful as "the PGC did it, they over rode the non-hunting opinion and those are the folks that favored the Sunday bans in the first place and those are the ones that voted and allowed for the changes in what can and can not NOW be done on Sundays..." Just who does the PGC think they are ??? .... We do not support Sunday hunting.... We non-hunters had no say on what the PGC put in place.. they stole it from us... Gestapo style... this will add folks to the anti PGC agenda... Hunters need to get away from the hunting areas they are allowed to hunt and land owners allowing hunting and talk to the majority of the "OTHERS".. polls on hunting sites do NOT reflex the thoughts and resulst of polls taken by farmers and land-owners and the general public... I'm sorry but I just think this is a deal where hunters are trying to flex what little muscle they have left and are going to pay for it from the folks not supporting Sunday hunting or even supporting hunting as a whole... regulatory control .. BULL.. the politicians KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.. they are setting up the PGC for the back-lash .. plain and simple... and I hope I do not live long enough to see the PGC say yes to Sunday hunting... what we basically have now is alot more HUNTERS wishing to hunt on Sunday for many reasons...... if this were the 60-70s maybe even the politicians would listen to the 1.6 million or so hunters and allow Sunday hunting .. but with dwelling numbers hunters are no longer making many or much of the calls in Pa anymore... so I see it as a slippery slope...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/05/23 11:39:43
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 12:19:19
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
We do not support Sunday hunting.... We non-hunters had no say on what the PGC put in place.. they stole it from us... Gestapo style...
so I see it as a slippery slope...
You seem stuck on the fact that you want non-hunters driving game regulations on Sunday. Would you be comfortable with these non-hunters and thier elected officials driving game regulations Monday through Saturday? Your angle seems to weigh the thoughts of non-hunters and politicians more than hunters and game agencies. There are glaring examples of why this is a really bad idea for you and me both. I remember two years ago when the crossbow debates were raging. The phrase " Pennsylvania is not like any other state". As it turns out Pa is like every other state. This issue will be no different. The boogeyman will stay in the closet just as he has everywhere else.
post edited by dpms - 2011/05/23 12:23:04
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Dr. Trout
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 12:39:12
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That is not 100% true.. I hear many from Ohio at the store say lots of land got posted that used to be open after they allowed Sunday hunting .. and access is getting harder and harder... but that's from folks who live and hunt in Ohio and have camps and hunt and fish here in Pa too.... not just from Pa hunters who want Sunday hunting... so I'm not buying that boogeyman stuff either..  we will lose land.... and I hope it's the ones wanting Sunday hunting and not me that loses the chance to hunt that land... too me the regulatory arguement is like the Indian putting a buffalo hide over him and crawling into the herd to do damage...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/05/23 12:59:08
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Dr. Trout
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 12:58:44
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You seem stuck on the fact that you want non-hunters driving game regulations on Sunday. Sunday is and I hope will always be respected as a religious day here in the USA.. but of course like much the culture of the USA it is not going anywhere but down-hill...IMHO... no prayers, no pledge, no nativity, no cross, no certain type T-shirts in school, no posting a sign after dark on school property asking your gal to the prom, no prom if you were in trouble as a juvenile, no choice you have to wear seat belts in a car or truck or airplane but do not have to wear helmets on a motorcycle .. yep the yuppies are in control now... and do not forget the BEST... same sex marriages are the same as a man and woman marriage.. UNBELIEVABLE... same sex "unions" .. I have NO POBLEM with that.. make them legal.. no problem.. BUT THEY ARE NOT MARRIAGES...... it's no wonder the Sabbath is losing all it's respect... The changing culture == moving more and more away from the founding fathers idea of the great USA... give hunters what they want.. give ****s what they want .. protest a dead soldiers funeral.. it's okay... you'll get on TV ... interrupt a church service.. it's okay.. you'll get on TV... dis-agree with an elected offical.. walk up and shoot them in the head.. want your way at school.. go to a school board meeting and start shooting... you are a student.. it is not your locker.. we can open it and look insdie any time we want to... WOW... now there are bills allowing a policeman to enter your house to "take a look"to make sure everything is okay without a search warrant... HOLY CRAP.... let non-believers have as much say as believers and if they are offended GET RID IF IT ... let the government tell you how to live and what to believe... let the government take care of you.... just adjust that "PRIDE" folks use to have.. nothing wrong with living on food stamps assistance for a life-time... many do it.. join the crowd.. enough ---------- I'm getting my blood pressure up......... rant over........ NO SUNDAY HUNTING PERIOD !!! 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/05/23 13:03:13
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dpms
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 13:05:18
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
no prayers, no pledge, no nativity, no cross, no certain type T-shirts in school, no posting a sign after dark on school property asking your gal to the prom, no prom if you were in trouble as a juvenile, no choice you have to wear seat belts in a car or truck or airplane but do not have to wear helmets on a motorcycle .. yep the yuppies are in control now...
and do not forget the BEST... same sex marriages are the same as a man and woman marriage.. UNBELIEVABLE... same sex "unions" .. I have NO POBLEM with that.. make them legal.. no problem..
BUT THEY ARE NOT MARRIAGES......
it's no wonder the Sabbath is losing all it's respect...
While I respect the above views I don't see any of it having to do with Sunday hunting. Fishing is legal on Sunday for all species and it hasn't resulted im mass closures of stream or ake access. Should we disallow fishing on Sundays as well? Make sense to me if your angle is the majority one.
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bingsbaits
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 13:10:47
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Doc you ever hear of a little thing called seperation of Church and State ??
Religion should have absolutely nothing to do with and hunting or fishing season.
Not real fair to the athiests either is it...
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 13:16:45
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ORIGINAL: bingsbaits
Doc you ever hear of a little thing called seperation of Church and State ??
Religion should have absolutely nothing to do with and hunting or fishing season.
Not real fair to the athiests either is it...
+1
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Dr. Trout
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bingsbaits
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 13:52:54
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I too am a Christian but that is either here nor there in this discussion.
What if my day of worship happens to be Saturday? I feel much closer to my GOD and beleifs out in the woods or in my boat, more so than any church I have ever attended.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 14:15:41
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Dr. Trout
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 14:25:16
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gene.. I have seen stream access closed just because folks do not want anglers fishing there... check out the erie tribs in steel season.. and there are even streams around here that are posted because of not wanting folks on the property.
You know I guess some of you will think this is nuts, but one thing I hear is folks do not want to hear the shooting... yep the noise of guns firing.... sure I hear guns being shot at camps on Sunday... and some of them do too... but it's not usually every Sunday and usually does not last all day...
folks I talk to when asked about fishing being allowed that is the first thing they say.. fishing is quiter,.. we do not even know they are there, we can still enjoy an afternoon walk around outside without worrying about flying hooks or lures... not so with bullets.. at least we can enjoy one day without worrying about flying bullets, 4 wheelers, etc.. and trespassers...
okay now I'm done wanted to address gene's comment too....
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 16:27:12
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Once the politicians realize that Sunday hunting for all species will put money in their pocket it will become legal. As far as posting land it is already happening and will only get worse because of what the PGC has done. Once it's lost it will never be open again.Posted land now means "money" for the landowner.Outdoor shows show the advantages of posting land and now many are following, they don't need the PGC for management. I figured somebody would drag religion into this topic and sure enough. Reminds me when stores and bars used to be closed on Sundays. Once the the Benjamin's out-weighed the Sunday worshipers, bars and stores and strip clubs are now open to take your money on Sunday. Hunting all species is already permitted on religious holidays so Sunday hunting is not far behind. Hunting Sunday is soon to follow with the public putting pressure on the politicians.Keep writing those letters. Maybe some of you who still live in Mayberry think different, but get ready, Sunday hunting is already here and other species including deer will soon be law.
post edited by Outdoor Adventures - 2011/05/23 16:28:45
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bingsbaits
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 16:40:52
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Really land being posted or not should not even be an issue.
All private property should be posted (without a thousand glaring yellow signs) and you do not step foot on Private Property without the owners permission. Fishing, hunting, hiking or bird watching, you do not own that land and have no implied consent to just go there as you please.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/23 16:56:49
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Agreed. Closing private land with posting signs are the new wave of deer hunting. Pay to hunt. Even though many private landowners are enrolled in Clean and Green they can still and are closing their land to hunting deer. Just like you said there should be no entry without permission, written is best but not law. Will Sunday hunting put up more yellow posters probably not but mismanagement of the herd has and will probably continue to do so.
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DarDys
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/24 07:21:01
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Doc,
Is the store open on Sundays? Do you sometimes have to work on Sundays? If so, then you should quit and stop supporting that enterprise because it interferes with the Saabath. If not, good for you.
By the way, Saturday is the Saabath day for Jews. Should hunting be closed that day as well?
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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bingsbaits
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RE: House G&F Sunday hunting meeting
2011/05/24 12:03:08
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I think the Catholics here in town have a Saturday evening mass. Makes it much easier not having to go to church Sunday morning with a hangover. 
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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