Natural reproduction

it's a put & take fishery..
The fish that swim those (warm) tribs are lost souls in higher water.. don't you think ? or does one think they seek them out to regenerate their life cycle.. I do not..
Of course the fish dig,drop and if they are lucky smolt but many chubbs feed well as do the other species..

But heck I'm also lost in the woods too :)

hey RT, i believe there is more natural repro than most suspect... i've witnessed it first hand and have actually seen beds produce rainbow par that i believe have as good of a chance as most to descend haethfully... and these water ways dont have a name... besides, the salmon and steel that frequent these spawning grounds annually at many different times throughout the year i've noticed to have different markings/coloring than your average fish out of the river... i believe in it... supposedly a 10 (or maybe more)year study is underway to try and determine the survival rate of the estimated 14 million salmonoids that hatch in the salmon river naturally every year.. they've yet to determine how many actually survive in the salmon river that is... i've witnessed salmon and some steel spawning in lower stretches of DSR at times... these par have even a greater chance of survival...

for the other tribs not connected to salmon river and flow in to the lake themselves... i believe some natural repro goes on; but not as much... they don't have steady waterflows like the salmon which leaves natural beds prone to drying out or overheating; but i do believe it still goes on...

for the lost soul theory... i believe that this does occur, but just think, for every lost soul that spawns in the right place at the right time and water level makes for naturally born fish that will most likely be directed to their same spot of origin to lay their own eggs, and on and on...

I don't know the actual facts; and yes you areright with the one year smolt return jack; but I have read that steelhead smolts have been recorded going back and forth from natal rivers to the ocean, but never too far from the river mouth... this was proven in kamchatka russia. My one question is this; from now until mid june; you can find thousands of little steelhead smolts in the river from top to bottom and rarely do I see dead ones in july/august... I would find it hard to believe they all die.I would assume they descend back to cooler temps in the lake as any cold water fish would naturally. Remember also that steel start spawning as early as late february/ early march.... id love to see some more studies conducted to say the least. They should do some type of tagging of gps device on a select amount of hatchery smolts and natural repro smolts to see what really goes on...

    Have caught the small Browns myself  occasionally  in the feeders using Hackle but always figured they were stocked that small. Maybe they were naturals-dont know, but it has been going of for over 20 years now.
    Gotta say though that the numbers seem small in the feeders-even so it would be nice to know that they repro there. Have never caught an adult brown in them but then I have a natural adversity to browns I guess- catch so few of the darned things. There could be a huge run of just Browns with even the kids catching them by mistake and I'd get a chub.
   Maybe thats why my wife calls me Chubby.

dime,I bet those thousands of LITTLE smolts are Salmon,they leave the river at a very young age so they are gone to the lake by July.

Still looking at SR water flows ?? Man I'm watching the flowcasts on the Ausable :) Trouts..

Too Funny though Retired.. Yea it's a mistake LOL

Until 11:59 PM Thu MAY 12, 500 CFS

EEEEYEAAAAA- I'm hopin to get a shot at my special spot nest week for a day or two. Just me and the gnats.

I believe the silver ones w/ the bulging eyes are coho smolts.

Thanks guys==
   This has been very informative. Hope I got it somewhat straight- Salmon smolt go to the lake pretty quick and likely some live and return but the trout want to stay in the river longer so likely die off in the Summer warm low water.      
    Browns  MAY have some limited repro as some juvies get caught now and then.  Odd that some  Brown would make it and  not some Steel too but no one seems to say they catch any small ones in the river or tribs.
  The only thing I am fuzzy on  ( hope its the only thing) is the Hos. Do they run right out with the Kings  or do they try and stay and die off too?
   Not even considering Atlantics cause there seem to be too few to even consider- yet.=== wont even bring up the mythical Summer run Skamania ("so many even the kids are catching them") (tackle shop quote)  cause I dont know anyone who actually saw one much less caught one.

ORIGINAL: retired guy

wont even bring up the mythical Summer run Skamania ("so many even the kids are catching them") (tackle shop quote)  cause I dont know anyone who actually saw one much less caught one.

I'ze cornfuzed RT...

Are you implying that a tackle shop would exaggerate the SR Fishing Conditions ???

Drake -thats one of my favorite tackle shop stories-
   Sittin at home with no money years ago and read about the  big summer run with even the "kids catching them"
   Took off work ran up and went to THAT same shop- They claimed they didnt know anything bout a Summer run, hadnt seen a fish all Summer-. Paid for my room and went home the same day===never wet a line. 12 hours and 600 hundred mile round trip- Talk bout  a suicide run. Spent about an hour in Pulaski--And Altmar.
     I NEVER believe those commercial reports ---period.......EVER-- and never will....too many want your money and care very little about anything else...
  Kinda like my other favorite story --in the lower river years ago when the report in a local CT  publication quoted them as saying there was a 'fantastic' run on a particular day " so come on up".. My friend &  I had fished there for 3 days that was the middle day. THERE WAS NO run for all three days and the report was for exactly where we were. Perhaps a fish here and there but NOT any kind of run. THATS why I get HOT when I read them saying HOT.
  Bovine  Field Splatter
   Now I'm fired up ---kinda like those two huge fishing shops we all know who are still featuring felt bottom waders and shoes in all their ads while lobbying like crazy to make them illegal.

   Went up for a wet weekend of lawn work,digging, cutting brush and making nice wet piles. Never wet a line, had a lot to do and it  pretty much rained both Sat and Sun so took longer than anticipated, looks to rain Monday too so cut it short a day.
Didnt look like very much pressure on the river up or down-yea a few more guys up top but not many.
  Met a great Supervisor from the Hatchery while stopped at  Ellis  for a bit watching guys fish on Saturday. Boy- let me tell ya- he enlightened me on a whole bunch of fishing facts and on going studies and activities by the Hatchery-made me a true believer in the SR system (as if I wasnt before) I'll tell ya these guys at the hatchery are GREAT. This guy even showed me his favorite Atlantic flies.
   Found that I'm pretty much all wet on the Atlantics and Skamania and  now see a very bright future for the Atlantics in particular. Got the impression they can do  somewhat better in  warm water that some other species. Was also pleasantly surprised at the info on natural spawning -especially for the Coho which are really producing out there.
     Dont want to quote him, even though he probably wouldn't mind his info getting out there, but sometimes things can get changed a bit in the retelling so I'll stay away from that.
     Let it suffice to say that this river and this fishery are in great hands.  Also, there is more natural repro going on in some cases that I ever thought possible.
  Also this is one more guy who is gonna be out there this summer with the fly rod looking for an Atlantic to release. A week ago you couldnt get me to even think about that on a bet...

  Found that I'm pretty much all wet on the Atlantics and Skamania and  now see a very bright future for the Atlantics in particular. Got the impression they can do  somewhat better in  warm water that some other species.

RT:

I don;t mean to P on your AS parade,

butt

unless the DEC gets rid of the non-native fish they stocked to keep the registers aringin (i.e. - mudsharks) the Atlantics stand no chance to compete against them.

unless the DEC restores the Atlantic Salmon forage base that crashed decades ago - there is no hope for widespread natural repro due to thiamine deficiency.

Man the Pig already FU'd the situation...
I have no confidence (ZERO) that they can turn back the hands of time with the Atlantics.

Sure - you might catch a 15lber some morning then that same afternoon you will land a 20# skam..

Happy Fishing.

http://www.aimee-lee-houde.com/salmon.htm

I would think with almost a zero hatchery return rate in years & years (think it's over 15 off top of my head) of stocking and trying to reintroduce them, SERIOUS to me would mean NO-kill, lake & tribs for a troubled species trying to rebound..
Atlantic's are obvously present.. Co-worker did a lake brown trip past weekend.. Kill rate : 9 browns 2 Atlantics..

Again dont know why we are dumping millions into a resource (atlantic's) with a Kill limit .
Don't you think the 1 steelhead limit has had an effect on them ? My thoughts on that is we see more returning fish not more natural reproduction there..

Nah - Try and keep the Koolaid down to a bare minimum. Also am old enough and politically savvy enough ( hope) not to be taken by a sell job. This guy was very serious and very dedicated and knowlegable as to whats up. He was a real zealot on the fishery and the fish- not the commercial side at all.
     The no kill thing, IMHO, is a real issue that we should all look at very seriously. I remember when the upper river was for trebble hookers with stiff little rods and 50 lb test line. There was a three fish limit then and that didnt include all the ones that were-ripped and not landed. If you think you see Zoorama now you havent lived till you have seen those 'good old days'.
    Personally I would LOVE to see a 'NO KILL' on the entire SR upstream from the Pineville  bridge and in both feeders as well. All catch and release-period.
Perhaps the single most troublesome thing over the years to me has been the increased limitation of acsess to the river- in particular the middlesections.     
    Some of my favorite areas are now almost completely inacessible without a very long hike. Even then one must be "creative" when getting to the water.
Used to park along 13 most anywhere and walk in but now it moslly all posted. Then we used to leave the car by our room at Jim Rushers and walk up to fish behind the Cemetery area - now its all posted.
    Thats the kind of stuff that has IMHO created the huge crowds in popular areas with big lots and has lent itself to some of the stuff we all complain about.
   I think the NO kill would create a very different atmosphere on the upper river and leave a lot more fish to reproduce on those very important gravel beds.
    My belief is that they have done a good job of trying to satisfy the fishery and the fishermen with the greatly reduced limits but those responsible need to know we would support further restrictions. I truely think they would appreciate the input.
            Anybody wanna start a petition?

   BTW- Drake- Thanks for the historical data- loved it---
   If I got this right the Guide lisence is only about $100 for 5 years and they DONT have to carry Liability- beyond that the 'high prices' have nothing to do with the State. Its the cost of doing business I guess. Hope I have those figures right -if not somebody will chime in I'm sure.