S-10
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/16 11:00:25
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Be it true or false that is not the issue here . The claim he made is concerning HISTORICAL FACTS PROVING a
SIGNIFICANT NUMBER of LEGAL bucks saved as a result of AR. That data simply does not exist to my knowledge and beliefs, claims, personal opinions etc are not at issue. HISTORICAl FACTS are the issue.
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deerfly 
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/16 12:48:44
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Here is a table from the mortality study. Table 1. White-tailed deer captures including recaptures reported in parentheses by sex and age class from January - April 2009 in WMUs 2G and 4B, Pennsylvania. An adult is classified as an animal 1.5 years old or older. WMU Sex/age class 2G 4B All captures Male adults 31 (3) 51 (9) 82 (12) Male fawns 23 (6) 55 (9) 78 (15) Female adults 65 (10) 56 (5) 121 (15) Female fawns 22 (5) 13 (0) 35 (5) Total 141 (24) 175 (23) 316 (47) The chart shows 31 adult males were captured in 2G and fitted with collars. Two were killed by poachers ,1 died of natural causes and 15 were harvested . As I see it, that means only 42% of the adult buck in the study survived hunting season.
post edited by deerfly - 2011/04/16 12:49:16
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Martin Shooter
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/16 13:14:55
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'kype how have you and your lover ben been?
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RSB
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/16 19:05:48
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Here is a table from the mortality study.
Table 1. White-tailed deer captures including recaptures reported in parentheses by sex and age class
from January - April 2009 in WMUs 2G and 4B, Pennsylvania. An adult is classified as an animal 1.5
years old or older.
WMU
Sex/age class 2G 4B All captures
Male adults 31 (3) 51 (9) 82 (12)
Male fawns 23 (6) 55 (9) 78 (15)
Female adults 65 (10) 56 (5) 121 (15)
Female fawns 22 (5) 13 (0) 35 (5)
Total 141 (24) 175 (23) 316 (47)
The chart shows 31 adult males were captured in 2G and fitted with collars. Two were killed by poachers ,1 died of natural causes and 15 were harvested . As I see it, that means only 42% of the adult buck in the study survived hunting season.
You failed to include any of the bucks that had been captured in previous year (2008) that were still being monitored and tracked. They were ALL 2 ½ and older and ALL well beyond the point of being antler legal. When you include all of the bucks still available to hunters, from both the 2008 and 2009 captures, that were 2 ½ and older during the 2009-hunting season the hunters only harvested 29% of those 2 ½ and older bucks. The fact that hunters harvest 42% of the 2 ½ year old bucks just captured the previous winter as 1 ½ year old bucks yet only harvested 29% of all bucks 2 ½ and older from not only 2009 but earlier capture years is pretty much an indication that bucks older than 2 ½ years old get really good at avoiding hunters and becoming a harvest. R.S. Bodenhorn
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/16 20:18:33
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You failed to include any of the bucks that had been captured in previous year (2008) that were still being monitored and tracked. They were ALL 2 ½ and older and ALL well beyond the point of being antler lega I didn't fail to include anything. I reported the results as they were reported by the PGC. If you would like to provide a link to the report that supports your claims, please feel free to post it. In the past you claimed that many bucks in your area didn't develop legal racks under the 3" spike rule and now you are claiming all 2.5 buck would all be AR legal. Make up your mind.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 00:06:09
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Let's break down my example even further into square miles for 2G ...
an estimated population in 2010 of 71,897 deer in 2G would be about 17 deer per square mile..
Deer hunters in 2G only harvested a TOTAL of 2.28 deer per square mile... 1.02 antlerless and 1.26 bucks... 2.28 killed out of 17 available .. how can anyone not think many buck are living longer and avoiding hunters.... ?????
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 04:47:54
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 09:01:57
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Let's break down my example even further into square miles for 2G ...
an estimated population in 2010 of 71,897 deer in 2G would be about 17 deer per square mile..
Deer hunters in 2G only harvested a TOTAL of 2.28 deer per square mile... 1.02 antlerless and 1.26 bucks... 2.28 killed out of 17 available .. how can anyone not think many buck are living longer and avoiding hunters.... ?????
Why did you use the PS population estimate from 2010 while citing the harvest rate from 2009? How many legal buck would a PS herd of 17 DPSM produce if 33% were fawns and 50% of the 1.5 buck weren't AR legal? Also, can you explain why the population in 2G increased by 13,243 deer (3.2 DPSM) from 2009 to 2010?
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bluntman
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 11:00:33
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 13:41:56
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well deerfly.. you pointed out I made a silly mistake last week when I filled out my 22 spread sheets for each WMU.. I forgot to fill in the spaces for deer killed per sqaure mile for 2G in 2010.. so when I looked for the last figure in that b/sm column I did not see I forgot to figure 2010.. I did figure it out now and unfornuately it proves my point even more..... In 2010 the buck per square mile kill was only 1.65.. not 2.28 so even more survived that figure than from 2009... thanks for the correction .. I fixed my spread sheet for 2G 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/04/17 13:48:54
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 14:19:52
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Deer hunters in 2G only harvested a TOTAL of 2.28 deer per square mile... 1.02 antlerless and 1.26 bucks... 2.28 killed out of 17 available .. how can anyone not think many buck are living longer and avoiding hunters.... ?????
Can't you get anything straight? You didn't claim the buck harvest was 2.28 BPSM, you said that was the total harvest!!! If you claim to know how many bucks were saved ,why don't you tell us the number of PS buck in 2G in 2010 and how many buck were carried over? Did 72% of the 2.5 bucks survive as RSB claimed and did 92% of the 1.5 buck survive? How many of the 6,800 buck that were harvested were 3.5+ buck? But , if you can't use the data from the right year and confuse the total harvest with the buck harvest, i guess there isn't much chance of getting reasonable answers to those questions.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 14:33:24
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that's the trouble when I try to reply from the work computer rather than at home and in between customers.... sorry.... If you claim to know how many bucks were saved ,why don't you tell us the number of PS buck in 2G in 2010 and how many buck were carried over? I was just trying to use the figures I have access to... the deer population came off the link dpms provided... I never claimed to know for sure how bucks there are or how many were saved.. just trying to work with the pgc figures I have access to.... personally I do not think the PGC should even try to state how many deer there are anywhere.... before or after the seasons
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wayne c
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 14:41:53
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personally I do not think the PGC should even try to state how many deer there are anywhere.... before or after the seasons I agree. I dont think the fools running the deer program should state how many deer there are.....or for that matter i dont think they should be stating much of ANYTHING about ANYTHING. The only thing they should be saying is: "I need a job because i was fired from pgc".
post edited by wayne c - 2011/04/17 14:43:08
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 15:06:18
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 15:16:34
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I never claimed to know for sure how bucks there are or how many were saved.. just trying to work with the pgc figures I have access to....
Well you claimed to know that the figures RSB posted on survival rates made sense and based it on the fact that one third of the 71,879 deer in 2G would be bucks when in fact only about 1 out of 5 preseason deer would be an adult buck and half of the 1.5 buck wouldn't be AR legal. You calculated the number of preseason buck for 2010, so if you applied RSB's survival rates you should be able to tell us how many bucks were carried over.
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S-10
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 16:21:03
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Try this for size using the 2009 PGC data DMPS posted and the 2009 harvest study RSB claims is revelant for 2G. The deer population for 2G in 2009 was 58,654 The total harvest was ------------------9,462 The surviving population was-----------49,196 Per RSB and the PGC the harvest is approx 50% 1-1/2 and 50% older bucks. The buck harvest was 5,216 so 2608 were 1-1/2 and 2,608 were older The study showed 8% of 1-1/2 and 29% of older bucks were harvested. The math says if 92% of the 1-1/2 were not harvested that is 32,600 bucks not harvested The math says if 71% of others were not harvested that is ----8,990 bucks not harvested Total bucks saved using PGC data and study numbers equals-- 41,590 That means of the 49,196 total surviving deer (41,590) were antlered bucks and (7,606) were antlerless. Anybody still wonder why I have questioned the validity of the study for WMU 2G
post edited by S-10 - 2011/04/17 19:19:06
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 17:34:46
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ORIGINAL: RSB
ORIGINAL: deerfly
Here is a table from the mortality study.
Table 1. White-tailed deer captures including recaptures reported in parentheses by sex and age class
from January - April 2009 in WMUs 2G and 4B, Pennsylvania. An adult is classified as an animal 1.5
years old or older.
WMU
Sex/age class 2G 4B All captures
Male adults 31 (3) 51 (9) 82 (12)
Male fawns 23 (6) 55 (9) 78 (15)
Female adults 65 (10) 56 (5) 121 (15)
Female fawns 22 (5) 13 (0) 35 (5)
Total 141 (24) 175 (23) 316 (47)
The chart shows 31 adult males were captured in 2G and fitted with collars. Two were killed by poachers ,1 died of natural causes and 15 were harvested . As I see it, that means only 42% of the adult buck in the study survived hunting season.
You failed to include any of the bucks that had been captured in previous year (2008) that were still being monitored and tracked. They were ALL 2 ½ and older and ALL well beyond the point of being antler legal.
Â
When you include all of the bucks still available to hunters, from both the 2008 and 2009 captures, that were 2 ½ and older during the 2009-hunting season the hunters only harvested 29% of those 2 ½ and older bucks.
Â
The fact that hunters harvest 42% of the 2 ½ year old bucks just captured the previous winter as 1 ½ year old bucks yet only harvested 29% of all bucks 2 ½ and older from not only 2009 but earlier capture years is pretty much an indication that bucks older than 2 ½ years old get really good at avoiding hunters and becoming a harvest.Â
Â
R.S. Bodenhorn
The report did not state that 42% of the 2.5+ buck were harvested, it showed that 42% of all adult buck being monitored survived hunting season. The data I posted was for period between, 1/7/2007 and 6/30/2008. Can you explain why the survival rates would increase so dramatically in one year when the buck harvest rate in 2G was 1.24 BPSM in 2007,1.63 in 2008.
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RSB
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 18:05:21
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
ORIGINAL: RSB
ORIGINAL: deerfly
Here is a table from the mortality study.
Table 1. White-tailed deer captures including recaptures reported in parentheses by sex and age class
from January - April 2009 in WMUs 2G and 4B, Pennsylvania. An adult is classified as an animal 1.5
years old or older.
WMU
Sex/age class 2G 4B All captures
Male adults 31 (3) 51 (9) 82 (12)
Male fawns 23 (6) 55 (9) 78 (15)
Female adults 65 (10) 56 (5) 121 (15)
Female fawns 22 (5) 13 (0) 35 (5)
Total 141 (24) 175 (23) 316 (47)
The chart shows 31 adult males were captured in 2G and fitted with collars. Two were killed by poachers ,1 died of natural causes and 15 were harvested . As I see it, that means only 42% of the adult buck in the study survived hunting season.
You failed to include any of the bucks that had been captured in previous year (2008) that were still being monitored and tracked. They were ALL 2 ½ and older and ALL well beyond the point of being antler legal.
When you include all of the bucks still available to hunters, from both the 2008 and 2009 captures, that were 2 ½ and older during the 2009-hunting season the hunters only harvested 29% of those 2 ½ and older bucks.
The fact that hunters harvest 42% of the 2 ½ year old bucks just captured the previous winter as 1 ½ year old bucks yet only harvested 29% of all bucks 2 ½ and older from not only 2009 but earlier capture years is pretty much an indication that bucks older than 2 ½ years old get really good at avoiding hunters and becoming a harvest.
R.S. Bodenhorn
The report did not state that 42% of the 2.5+ buck were harvested, it showed that 42% of all adult buck being monitored survived hunting season. The data I posted was for period between, 1/7/2007 and 6/30/2008. Can you explain why the survival rates would increase so dramatically in one year when the buck harvest rate in 2G was 1.24 BPSM in 2007,1.63 in 2008.
First of all the report you provided stated that 3 of the 1½ year old and older bucks captured in 2009 were recaptures so obviously there were already bucks collared and being tracked prior to the 2009 captures. Next we have the fact that the report you provided identified all of those bucks as being 1½ and older in the early part of 2009 (January – March) when they are trapping and handling the deer they will be monitoring. Since those bucks were all 1½ and older in the 2008 season before being captured they would obviously all have been 2½ and older during the 2009 hunting season. As for how many bucks were available and how many were harvested I have already provided that data for the four study areas. Though I am certain those results can’t be, and shouldn’t be, used for trying to determine buck harvest rates across the state or even across an entire management unit, the results are valid to establish that a much high percentage of even legal bucks avoid harvest with antler restrictions than ever occurred before the current restrictions. You can deny it and argue about it until you turn blue if you want, but that isn’t going to change what the facts have proven and most likely are going to continue to prove into the future as well. R.S. Bodenhorn
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 18:38:04
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First of all the report you provided stated that 3 of the 1½ year old and older bucks captured in 2009 were recaptures so obviously there were already bucks collared and being tracked prior to the 2009 captures What the heck are you talking about? The report I cited said nothing about the bucks captured in 2009 I just posted that the study I cited ended in 6/30/2008. Please post the link to the 2009 study results!!!
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 19:24:03
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What the heck are you talking about? The report I cited said nothing about the bucks captured in 2009 I just posted that the study I cited ended in 6/30/2008.
Please post the link to the 2009 study results!!! Deerfly = here's what you posted at 12:48pm on April 16th ==== Here is a table from the mortality study.
Table 1. White-tailed deer captures including RECAPTURES reported in parentheses by sex and age class from January - April 2009 in WMUs 2G and 4B, Pennsylvania. An adult is classified as an animal 1.5 years old or older.
Male adults = 31 (3)
So as RSB === stated if those 3 adults were collared in Jan-April 2008 they would have to be older than 1.5 in 2009 when they were RE-captured .... they were not buttons when collared in 2008 ....
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wayne c
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 20:21:24
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RSB SAYS; Though I am certain those results can’t be, and shouldn’t be, used for trying to determine buck harvest rates across the state or even across an entire management unit.... Seems we have a first here, because you certainly got that right! They arent really indicative of much of anything and the math proves it.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/04/17 20:24:38
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wayne c
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/17 20:22:56
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Anybody still wonder why I have questioned the validity of the study for WMU 2G Probably same reason anyone looking into just about any unit has problems with pgcs nonsense. Too many contradictions, data that tells different stories than the ones they try to portray, and proven lies.
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 16:32:27
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So as RSB === stated if those 3 adults were collared in Jan-April 2008 they would have to be older than 1.5 in 2009 when they were RE-captured .... they were not buttons when collared in 2008 .... So what difference does that make.. The survival rate for adult buck was still only 44%, which is a far cry from the 92% survival rate for 1.5 buck and the 72% survival rate for 2.5+ buck.
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RSB
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 18:09:37
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
First of all the report you provided stated that 3 of the 1½ year old and older bucks captured in 2009 were recaptures so obviously there were already bucks collared and being tracked prior to the 2009 captures
What the heck are you talking about? The report I cited said nothing about the bucks captured in 2009 I just posted that the study I cited ended in 6/30/2008.
Please post the link to the 2009 study results!!!
If you look at what you posted and it clearly shows the trapping results are for the 2009 trapping period between January and April of 2009. Since you didn’t post a link of even copy and paste the 2008 harvest results I would assume you are confusing and mixing two totally different sets of data in a attempt to get results you like, again. R.S. Bodenhorn
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 18:19:02
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So what difference does that make.. The survival rate for adult buck was still only 44%, which is a far cry from the 92% survival rate for 1.5 buck and the 72% survival rate for 2.5+ buck. well I'd say it backs-up what RSB was saying and I believe to be very true.. that many of those 1.5 and 2.5 are surving for two reasons ... #1... many are protected bucks.. (ARs) look at all the folks complaining in the 4 point areas about buck that are 2.5 or better and still no brow tines... even S-10 has posted about them.. #2 .. Just as RSB stated... with ARs in place more guys are having to pass on 1.5 and 2.5 because they have to count point to be sure it is legal... and thus the buck walks .. Even poor old me is still waiting for that AR legal buck to walk by... I have had years since ARs that in the past I'd have had a "buck down" but couldn't because of the 3 point rule in 2F and had bucks in sight I could not tell what they were.. so I know both these reasons for bucks surviving are true... Don't you rememebr all the doom and gloom guys saying that ARs would cause guys to just go ahead and shoot and kill and count points later... and we would all be seeing dead protected buck laying around in the woods as the rifle season progressed ?????? We shall see what happens this coming year with the 3 up rule in the old 4 point areas and split seasons in some new WMUS.... I look for an increase in the Buck harvest and more of the younger ones getting killed ... which would be nice to see two years back to back with increased buck harvests. I know I plan on filling my doe tags in archery or senior citizen hunt this year (already have the 3 days off for that) ... and spend rifle looking for that AR legal buck rather than an early 1st day doe kill and then off to Clear Creek to fill tags #2 on day 2......
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 18:23:06
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RSB
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 18:26:22
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
So as RSB === stated if those 3 adults were collared in Jan-April 2008 they would have to be older than 1.5 in 2009 when they were RE-captured .... they were not buttons when collared in 2008 ....
So what difference does that make.. The survival rate for adult buck was still only 44%, which is a far cry from the 92% survival rate for 1.5 buck and the 72% survival rate for 2.5+ buck.
Since it appears, from what you most recently posted about the report ending in 2008, you are most likely looking at two separate sets of data, one for the 2008 harvest results and a different report showing the 2009 trapping results. Without digging up the data I wouldn’t be surprised if the 2008 harvest results were higher than those for 2009 since the 2008 adult buck harvest results would have been for mostly 2 ½ year old bucks. But, those adult bucks that survived the 2008 season were still being monitored in 2009 so they were a year older and thus more experienced and better equipped to avoid being harvested in the 2009 season. That most likely accounts for at least part of the reason the percentage of the monitored adult bucks harvested would decline to only 29% being harvested in 2009. That probably isn’t the only reason though since the buck harvest was down, likely due to the weather conditions, pretty much all across the state in 2009. Those are all reasons why it is rather irresponsible to compare data from one year to another. It requires several years of data to sift out the trends instead of just looking at a year of bias resulting from any number of variables. I believe the present study is either a four or five year study. When the study is completed I am sure there will be a full report with the finding and I also suspect it will influence future management options and direction. R.S. Bodenhorn
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RSB
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 18:47:24
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Are you telling us that you are so incompetent that you don't know how to access the PGC report on the antlered deer mortality reports?
I didn't bother to post a link because I thought both you and DT knew where to find those reports, but I guess I was mistaken. you posted that the survival rates for 1.5 buck was 92% and that the survival rates for 2.5+ buck was 71% ,but you never posted a link to that report and i couldn't find it on the PGC web page.
The Antlered buck survival study is posted on the PGC web page under the topic of ANNUal reports.
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=563677&contentid=http://pubcontent.state.pa.us/publishedcontent/publish/marketingsites/game_commission/content/resources/reportsandminutes/annualwildlifemanagementreports/2009_deer_21013_ci.html&mode=2
Since it appears, from what you most recently posted about the report ending in 2008, you are most likely looking at two separate sets of data, one for the 2008 harvest results and a different report showing the 2009 trapping results. Without digging up the data I wouldn’t be surprised if the 2008 harvest results were higher than those for 2009 since the 2008 adult buck harvest results would have been for mostly 2 ½ year old bucks. But, those adult bucks that survived the 2008 season were still being monitored in 2009 so they were a year older and thus more experienced and better equipped to avoid being harvested in the 2009 season. That most likely accounts for at least part of the reason the percentage of the monitored adult bucks harvested would decline to only 29% being harvested in 2009. That probably isn’t the only reason though since the buck harvest was down, likely due to the weather conditions, pretty much all across the state in 2009. Those are all reasons why it is rather irresponsible to compare data from one year to another. It requires several years of data to sift out the trends instead of just looking at a year of bias resulting from any number of variables. I believe the present study is either a four or five year study. When the study is completed I am sure there will be a full report with the finding and I also suspect it will influence future management options and direction. R.S. Bodenhorn
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deerfly
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 19:31:34
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there is the harvest data from 2009.
Mortality cause 2G 4B Total
Legal harvest 26 30 56
Male adults 15 18 33
Male fawns --a --a --a
Female adults 11 12 23
Female fawns --a --a --a
Unrecovered harvest 0 2 2
Male adults 0 2 2
Male fawns --a --a --a
Female adults 0 0 0
Female fawns --a --a --a
Poaching 2 3 5
Male adults 2 3 5
Male fawns 0 0 0
Female adults 0 0 0
Female fawns 0 0 0
Roadkill 4 8 12
Male adults 0 5 5
Male fawns 0 0 0
Female adults 3 2 5
Female fawns 1 1 2
Natural Causes 2 2 4
Male adults 1 0 1
Male fawns 0 0 0
Female adults 1 2 3
Female fawns 0 0 0
Unknown 2 3 5
Male adults 0 0 0
Male fawns 0 0 0
Female adults 2 3 5
Female fawns 0 0 0
Total 36 48 84
Male adults 18 28 46
Male fawns 0 0 0
Female adults 17 19 36
Female fawns 1 1 2
a Fawns less than 7 months-old are not marked during the hunting season.
In 2g 33 adult buck were being monitored and 15 adult males were harvested. Based on that ,what was the survival rate of adult bucks in 2G?
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S-10
Pro Angler
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RE: The PGC Does Care About Hunters After All!!
2011/04/18 20:43:01
(permalink)
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