Dr. Trout
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@ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
I could catch them all in the field behind the house at the same time today... ??
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/08 18:31:13
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deerfly 
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 18:41:50
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I thought RSB said the habitat was controlling the herd in 2F and 2G? Did you just prove he was wrong?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 18:50:04
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It's a farmers crop field, and I have said more than once the dpsm around here is probably more like 20-30.. At the same time there were some across the road already and 4 in my back yard feeding... so that's at least 18 dpsm in the open... wonder how many were inside the wood line waiting for it to get darker... these four were some of the ones already across the road and about 100 yards from the farmers corn...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/08 18:56:14
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SonofZ3
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 19:15:25
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Nice pics! Only had one in the field here this dusk.
The downside is that I found my first illegally killed buck today while taking my walk. Just over the property line found a little 2 point. Fork on one side, button on the other. He'd been pretty well cleaned over, but the place it was at had the bushes tramped down over a wide area. Looks like a person trail leading through the brush to him, not a deer trail. With the doe I found after the snow melted with a slug hole just forward of her back leg, that makes two deer poached and left to lay just off the farm.
Support your local Fly Shop! OHWM
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deerfly
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 19:19:07
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
It's a farmers crop field, and I have said more than once the dpsm around here is probably more like 20-30..
At the same time there were some across the road already and 4 in my back yard feeding...
so that's at least 18 dpsm in the open... wonder how many were inside the wood line waiting for it to get darker...
these four were some of the ones already across the road and about 100 yards from the farmers corn...
So is the PGC lying about the DD in 2F?
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 19:19:34
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How long ago do you figure the deer were killed ? ORIGINAL: SonofZ3
Nice pics! Only had one in the field here this dusk.
The downside is that I found my first illegally killed buck today while taking my walk. Just over the property line found a little 2 point. Fork on one side, button on the other. He'd been pretty well cleaned over, but the place it was at had the bushes tramped down over a wide area. Looks like a person trail leading through the brush to him, not a deer trail. With the doe I found after the snow melted with a slug hole just forward of her back leg, that makes two deer poached and left to lay just off the farm.
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SonofZ3
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 19:28:50
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Well, the doe was whole, but frozen solid about two weeks ago when the snow melted off. I don't know how quickly a deer dies of a gut shot far back like that, but she was under the snow that the township plows had piled up (she was only 10 feet off the road). With doe season until the end of Jan. I figure she was shot in season, but who knows. In the last week yotes, dogs, or soemthing has been working her over pretty good, about half eaten now.
The buck has been eaten. All the muscle and organs are gone, just some white sinew on the ribs thats being worked on by something and the skin. It stinks and is currently rotting though, with the underside of the hide the same color/consistency of the rotting doe. so its not as if the deer died months before the season and I just found it. The reason I think he was poached, or shot and left lay, is because of the trail that leads to him. Wide path of goldenrod pushed down flat from an old road stopping at the carcass, not pushed side to side with a few broken stalks like deer paths.
Maybe poached wasn't the best word, I think they were probably shot during season and left.
Support your local Fly Shop! OHWM
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 19:30:27
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So is the PGC lying about the DD in 2F? When someone tell me they are estimating something I do not take it for 100% gospel.. if you do then shame on you... I more or less understand how they do their estimating and I more or less know how many deer I see within a mile of my house... now If I take the 20dpsm here and add the square mile at clear creek where no one has ever seen a deer that would make those 2 sqaure miles of 2F have an estimated 10 dpsm.. So all I have been saying is that deer numbers in 2F === AS A WHOLE === are not as bad as some would have us believe.... and thus why I say to ask around and try a new area ... so no .. the PGC is not lying... I believe what they say is the estimated population for 2F as a whole.. alot of the ANF gets figured into 2F estimates, and I bet they may be at 5-8 dpsm in the BEST spots...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/08 19:32:10
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deerfly
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 19:54:39
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I more or less understand how they do their estimating and I more or less know how many deer I see within a mile of my house... now If I take the 20dpsm here and add the square mile at clear creek where no one has ever seen a deer that would make those 2 sqaure miles of 2F have an estimated 10 dpsm..
That is pure unadulterated nonsense. No areas in Clear creek have zero DPSM. The harvest data from from 2F shows that the average rate is 5 DPSM which means the PS herd is around 15 DPSM and the OWDD is around 10 DPSM.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/08 22:43:40
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No areas in Clear creek have zero DPSM and how many pellet counts have you done there ????? I have been on them in one area and we did not find even 1 pile of poop in a square mile... believe it or not you do not know near as much as you think you do .... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/08 22:51:03
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 00:24:04
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I found deer also that are simular to what you described. Im betting they were shot and not recovered. This happen a lot with posted property as the hunter gives up when they see the posted signs.I always grant permission when asked to recover a deer but some would rather give up then to ask . Many will leave an ilegal antlered deer to avoid the $500+ fine from the PGC. ORIGINAL: SonofZ3
Well, the doe was whole, but frozen solid about two weeks ago when the snow melted off. I don't know how quickly a deer dies of a gut shot far back like that, but she was under the snow that the township plows had piled up (she was only 10 feet off the road). With doe season until the end of Jan. I figure she was shot in season, but who knows. In the last week yotes, dogs, or soemthing has been working her over pretty good, about half eaten now.
The buck has been eaten. All the muscle and organs are gone, just some white sinew on the ribs thats being worked on by something and the skin. It stinks and is currently rotting though, with the underside of the hide the same color/consistency of the rotting doe. so its not as if the deer died months before the season and I just found it. The reason I think he was poached, or shot and left lay, is because of the trail that leads to him. Wide path of goldenrod pushed down flat from an old road stopping at the carcass, not pushed side to side with a few broken stalks like deer paths.
Maybe poached wasn't the best word, I think they were probably shot during season and left.
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deerfly
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 07:48:49
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
No areas in Clear creek have zero DPSM
and how many pellet counts have you done there ?????
I have been on them in one area and we did not find even 1 pile of poop in a square mile...
believe it or not you do not know near as much as you think you do ....
I know for a fact that you didn't cover that SM thoroughly enough to say for sure there was no poop or no deer in that SM!! Pellet counts assume that the deer are distributed evenly across the area surveyed and we all know that is not always true. You are beginning to sound like a USP member claiming there are no deer left in some areas!!!
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SilverKype
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 07:59:27
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I sometimes think people think a square mile is like 10 acres. People don't walk more than 100 yards off the road to hunt. A square mile has over 3,000,000 (yes that's million) yards !
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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deerfly
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 08:11:01
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I think you meant 3M square yds. Now how many miles would a hunter have to walk to cover 1 SM on transects that are 100 yds. apart?
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SilverKype
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 08:18:11
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Yes, I did. And I don't know and I'm going to try my hardest to not think about it.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 08:36:53
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I know for a fact that you didn't cover that SM thoroughly enough to say for sure there was no poop or no deer in that SM!! And just how do you know that ?? The count was done as all of them are and many ( just not you ) think they are a good tool for estimating deer population in a small area. It's amazing you think fly-overs are not accurate... the PGC way of counting deer is no good, pellet counts are no good... but you can sit at a computer with a pencil and paper and tell us all what is what .... I see a pattern here.. you just love to disagree with everyone and everything and have no better suggestions... now that's a USP guy !!!!!
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deerfly
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 09:25:41
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And just how do you know that ?? Because in order to cover 1 SM on transects spaced 100 yds. apart you or your group would have had to walk 17 miles and you still would not have covered the vast majority of the area that was located between the transects.
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World Famous
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 09:50:18
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Looks like the park people, or whomever is in charge, should maybe do some select cutting in Clear Creek to provide cover and a food source for the deer. An entire square mile is a large area to be totaly devoid of deer, even a deer walking thru that area...WF
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SonofZ3
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 09:58:27
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ORIGINAL: World Famous
Looks like the park people, or whomever is in charge, should maybe do some select cutting in Clear Creek to provide cover and a food source for the deer. An entire square mile is a large area to be totaly devoid of deer, even a deer walking thru that area...WF
Park forests aren't managed for deer in any way, shape, or form. About the only management park forests get is where hazard trees are cut by roads, trails, or other areas used by the public.
Support your local Fly Shop! OHWM
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DarDys
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 10:15:34
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"It's amazing you think fly-overs are not accurate..." Not a comment on deer population estimates or methodology in general because I don't know enough about them and have never been on one. But to discuss one in particular, that was a fly-over, I can do. This one happened to fly over a section of Raystown lake feceral ground that I am very familiar with because I hunt pheasants in and around it 4-5 times per season. In addition, one of the people that normally goes along on these pheasant hunts was invited to fly along on the count. When the results were published in our local paper, from a press release, not a paper staff writer, it said that there were areas around Raystown that the fly-over determined had as high as 90 deer per square mile. Now, I worked in that area for over 10 years and I can tell you that those that live (I don't, I am 50 miles away) and hunt in that area would not agree with that type of estimate. Yet, there it was. The fly-over proved it. As Paul Harvey used to say, "And now, the rest of the story." It seems that the square mile that had all of the deer turned out to be a standing, unharvested corn field that is nestled in the middle of big timber. Now there is a shocker, deer, in November, at night, gather in the only easily available food source for literally miles around. Who would have thought it?  One of three things happened with this "estimate" -- 1) either that area was intentionally targeted for the survey because it was know that deer form a large area would gather there and by doing the survey there the population would exhibit a false high DPSM figure; 2) the information provided through the press release was stated as such to exhibit this false high as the norm; or 3) both. I can't say anything about the other estimates, pellet, fly-over, etc., but this one was total BS wrapped up in a nice package.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 10:51:22
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Thanks Dars..
you actually pointed out I made a typo.. I meant to say some here think the fly-overs that DCNR did proved there was very few deer in some areas.. that's what I meant to say ... they show a small picture of what is there the minute they fly-over and that could change in a minute.. they are NOT accurate ....
your example shows that to be true ....
they are but a small picture of a specfic minute in time....
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bingsbaits
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 11:18:59
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Didn't they pull that same stunt when the PGC was involved with an ariel count of the deer ?
Flew over a known deer farm to boost the numbers.....
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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World Famous
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 12:35:03
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I'm kinda sneakin in on this one,wonder why someone would spend time and effort on pellet counts in areas devoid of deer if nothing can be done to improve habitat to that area?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 14:25:32
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WF.. good question.. the one area that is close to my home that I sort of watch has had all kinds of tests done.. sprays, controlled burns, etc ... just "junk grows" there.. I don't know anything about the soil but I know they are trying to figure out what is wrong and check it after they try something new on the area... there are also a couple fenced exclosures that nothing good is growing back in either... a mystery for DCNR ... 
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DarDys
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 14:37:23
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
WF..
good question..
the one area that is close to my home that I sort of watch has had all kinds of tests done.. sprays, controlled burns, etc ... just "junk grows" there..
I don't know anything about the soil but I know they are trying to figure out what is wrong and check it after they try something new on the area...
there are also a couple fenced exclosures that nothing good is growing back in either...
a mystery for DCNR ...
Its the deer, Doc. They are the only thing ruining the forests.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 14:42:06
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World Famous
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 14:52:05
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deerfly
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 16:08:43
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I see a pattern here.. you just love to disagree with everyone and everything and have no better suggestions... How do you like these suggestions? Repeal ARs,manage the herd based on the carrying capacity of all of the habitat and release population estimates like they did in 2003. That would have to be better than what we have now.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 18:58:07
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ARs... really doesn't matter to me, but since the majority of hunters in all polls likes them I say leave them alone... manage the herd based on the carrying capacity of all of the habitat .... just about impossible to do in a state as large as Pa with all the various types habitats.. release population estimates like they did in 2003 .. what a waste of time and money that would be .. you guys wouldn't and don't believe the figures they put out there now
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Ironhed
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RE: @ 10dpsm what's the odds ???
2011/03/09 19:02:14
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you guys wouldn't and don't believe the figures they put out there now But they'll use them when need be. lol Ironhed
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