Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 16:09:43
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So as I said = in June July August as the guy said .. he would be counting deer with visible antlers versus deer without visible antlers and I am sure was not counting fawns that would probably still have spots most of that time... come hunting season I can see where he may count fawns without antlers as antlerless, but being there 24/7 he might well say it was 1:10 for hunting season... I can't image when he told you it would be 1:6 he was counting fawns.. but maybe I'm wrong  I just know in those months I would not count fawns as anything because as you said -- you would not know what sex they were.......
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/10 16:11:42
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 16:13:11
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Yearling BUCKS do not have ANTLERS. Who ever told you that ???????
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Ironhed
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 16:20:31
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
I think trail cams can lie about ratios. Bucks tend to use terrain as they move and doe typically use trails. If you set up on a trail and get a bunch of doe, who is to say bucks aren't downwind of the trail scent checking it ? What if I put a cam on a scrape and end up with more buck pics than doe ? Doesn't mean that's true. I've set up 4-5 cams along the same trail 50 yards apart and the doe are in all pics, yet bucks are only on 1 or 2.
As could the naked eye. We can only judge the pics by numerous sightings of the same deer(bucks). Running multiple trail cams are the eyes in the back of our heads when we are sleeping, on stand or cutting firewood lol. I know who lives on/near the property and who doesn't. A bird can't take a dookie without havin it's picture taken around here. lol There's a bazillion "what if's" but in reality only Baby Jesus really knows.  Ironhed
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S-10
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 16:43:50
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If your looking for the number or ratio of deer it's best to set your camera over feed. Regardless of what trail they use or the time of day or night all deer will come to good feed.
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deerfly 
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 16:48:41
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Can anyone explain how we harvested more 2.5+ buck in 2010 then in 2003 and 2004 when we had a lot more deer. In 2003 we harvested 62,600 2.5+ buck and in 2004 it was 62K,while in 2010 it was record 64,683. Am I missing something and is a logical reason why the 2.5+ buck harvested would be higher than in 2004?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:02:02
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Here's my thoughts..
guys are realising that as deer get older they get smarter.. thus the hunter can't just sit on that old stump year after year like in the 80s and 90s... they are moving away from roads and beginning to understand what it takes to hunt and harvest a MATURE whitetail.. much like the guy did before ARs that still managed "trophy" bucks every copule years...
you can not hunt 1.5 years olds the same as 2.5 or older deer.. hunters that really love and enjoy the sport of deer hunting are learning to adapt to the new world of Pa deer hunting..
the others are quiiting...
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:11:50
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Some may find this interesting Cessna"s is probably the most well known and popular taxidermists in this area He has been in business for years and keeps good records of his bucks.. He is in Clearfield, but gets deer from other WMUs other than just 2G... Here's is his 2006 figures... age class and number received... 1.5 = 15 2.5 = 99 3.5 = 89 4.5 = 38 5.5 = 12 6.5 = 6
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/10 17:12:55
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:18:33
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Just for fun.. here's Clearfield (2G).. where so many here say there are no deer === again it is 2006 figures for age and number ==
1.5 = 6
2.5 = 37
3.5 = 33
4.5 = 13
5.5 = 4
6.5 = 2
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deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:24:47
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guys are realising that as deer get older they get smarter If the older bucks are so much smarter,how did hunters kill more 2.5+ buck than the number of 1.5 buck that were saved by ARs? The harvest rate for 2.5+ buck had to be close to 100% to produce the harvest of 65K 2.5+ buck in 2010. BTW the old dumb stump sitters harvested 52,900 2,5+ buck in 2002, before any 1.5 bucks were saved by ARs.
post edited by deerfly - 2011/03/10 17:26:38
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:25:27
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And finally just because I know someone will ask..  here's the numbers he recived in recent years.... 98-229 99-251 00-316 01-256 02-don't have those figures.. 03-349 04-278 05-267 06-419 NOPE === remember === some say ARs are not making bigger bucks and buck hunting SUCKS now ....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/10 17:26:53
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:29:16
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SIMPLE == as I said the successful hunters have gotten smarter too.... while sitting on a stump worked before AR with 45% more deer running around ... it will not be that successful now.. especially with older deer and less hunters and not being able to shoot 80% of ALL the legal deer like before.... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/10 17:33:41
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:33:03
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Why do you even bother to ask questions ?? Am I missing something and is a logical reason why the 2.5+ buck harvested would be higher than in 2004 ??? WE ALL KNOW YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS AND WILL NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THE ANSWERS YOU GET EXCEPT THOSE THAT AGREE WITH YOU AND THE USP AGENDA ?????
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/10 17:34:59
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S-10
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:33:19
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Both sets of numbers don't really have any scientific meaning without prior years to compare to. A taxidermist usually only gets the oldest bucks unless it's someones first one.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:39:34
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Did you even look at the prior figures I posted.. even if you are 100% correct about only getting the oldest bucks... it is proof the bucks are getting older....and so is the number he is receiving each year....
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deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 17:51:39
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And that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we harvested more 2.5+ buck in 2010 than we did in 2003 and 2004. It is a scientific fact that you can't harvest more 2.5+ buck than are protected by ARs in the previous years and that is what the PGC data shows.
Non-hunting mortality should reduce the 2.5+ buck harvest by over 10%, but the data doesn't reflect that.
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 18:59:05
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Once again how do you know these numbers are accurate and not made up to the liking of the PGC. Are these numbers from report cards or just estimated numbers ? Numbers are thrown out there to make the public think the program is working. Feedback from hunters who actually hunt is your real answer.
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 19:10:01
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ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
Once again how do you know these numbers are accurate and not made up to the liking of the PGC. Are these numbers from report cards or just estimated numbers ? Numbers are thrown out there to make the public think the program is working. Feedback from hunters who actually hunt is your real answer.
I would suggest doing some research on how the PGC derives their harvest estimates. It really is very simple.
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S-10
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 19:19:24
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My computer sucks so bad I'am lucky to even get anything on much less worry about when it goes on. Do you have the numbers received since 2006? My taxidermist also saw increased numbers until 2005 or 06 but they have declined every year since.
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deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 19:27:05
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ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
Once again how do you know these numbers are accurate and not made up to the liking of the PGC. Are these numbers from report cards or just estimated numbers ? Numbers are thrown out there to make the public think the program is working. Feedback from hunters who actually hunt is your real answer.
I have been analyzing the PGC harvest data since the 80s and for the most part they make sense. But when they claimed the harvest of 302K antlerless kept the herd stable while the 2001 harvest of 284K reduced the herd by 8 %, the numbers didn't make sense and the PGC was caught with their pants down. The same situation applies to the 2010 harvest of 64K 2.5+ buck. How could we possibly harvest more 2.5+ buck than the number of 1.5 buck that were protected by ARs. By now I would have thought the pGC would have done a better job of cross checking their data ,but it appears the are too arrogant to concede that they might be wrong,
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wayne c
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 20:05:28
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Gee, i wonder why doc stopped at 2006...a year when we had a harvest of 135,290 bucks. And didnt continue on into and include the last few years of many decades low buck harvests of 108 and 109K which would show the CURRENT more recent numbers of bucks showing our current reality....? lmao. Maybe the taxidermist needs another several years to process his numbers? Hes only up to 2006 thus far. Cant give doc the rest till 2012? lmao.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/03/10 20:08:24
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SilverKype
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 20:46:35
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ORIGINAL: Ironhed
ORIGINAL: SilverKype
I think trail cams can lie about ratios. Bucks tend to use terrain as they move and doe typically use trails. If you set up on a trail and get a bunch of doe, who is to say bucks aren't downwind of the trail scent checking it ? What if I put a cam on a scrape and end up with more buck pics than doe ? Doesn't mean that's true. I've set up 4-5 cams along the same trail 50 yards apart and the doe are in all pics, yet bucks are only on 1 or 2.
As could the naked eye.
We can only judge the pics by numerous sightings of the same deer(bucks). Running multiple trail cams are the eyes in the back of our heads when we are sleeping, on stand or cutting firewoodlol.
I know who lives on/near the property and who doesn't. A bird can't take a dookie without havin it's picture taken around here. lol
There's a bazillion "what if's" but in reality only Baby Jesus really knows.
Ironhed
Do you cut firewood with chainsaw or axe ?
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 20:48:40
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I had heart surgery in 2007 and have had no reason to go to clearfield to see if I can get more updated figures... I got those figures from a hand-out in 2007 before the surgery... and never had a need to get more info... I just thought they were interesting... He's in the phone book..maybe you can give him a call if you are that interested...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/10 20:50:46
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RSB
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 20:52:48
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
Once again how do you know these numbers are accurate and not made up to the liking of the PGC. Are these numbers from report cards or just estimated numbers ? Numbers are thrown out there to make the public think the program is working. Feedback from hunters who actually hunt is your real answer.
I have been analyzing the PGC harvest data since the 80s and for the most part they make sense. But when they claimed the harvest of 302K antlerless kept the herd stable while the 2001 harvest of 284K reduced the herd by 8 %, the numbers didn't make sense and the PGC was caught with their pants down. The same situation applies to the 2010 harvest of 64K 2.5+ buck. How could we possibly harvest more 2.5+ buck than the number of 1.5 buck that were protected by ARs. By now I would have thought the pGC would have done a better job of cross checking their data ,but it appears the are too arrogant to concede that they might be wrong,
Yes you have been analyzing Game Commission data for a long time and we have been pointing out how you don’t understand the majority of the data and thus misunderstanding and misrepresenting what it REALLY means for just as long. The problem isn’t with the Game Commission harvest data, it is in your ability to accurately understand what the various deer and harvest estimates mean or how they correlate from one to the other. Just how did you come up with the idea that more 2 ½ and older bucks were harvested this year than were saved last year? R.S. Bodenhorn
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deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 21:11:47
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Just how did you come up with the idea that more 2 ½ and older bucks were harvested this year than were saved last year? The fact that you had ask that question shows it is you that doesn't understand the harvest data. The PGC claims ARs save 49% of the 1.5 bucks,so all you have to do is divide the 1.5 buck harvest by .51 and you come up with the PS 1.5 buck population. then you subtract the 1.5 buck harvest from the total number of PS 1.5 buck and you get the number of 1.5 buck carried over. The result is that the number of 2.5+ buck harvested the last 2 years exceeds the number of 1.5 buck carried over in the previous two years and that is statistically impossible.
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RSB
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 21:30:33
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Just how did you come up with the idea that more 2 ½ and older bucks were harvested this year than were saved last year?
The fact that you had ask that question shows it is you that doesn't understand the harvest data. The PGC claims ARs save 49% of the 1.5 bucks,so all you have to do is divide the 1.5 buck harvest by .51 and you come up with the PS 1.5 buck population. then you subtract the 1.5 buck harvest from the total number of PS 1.5 buck and you get the number of 1.5 buck carried over. The result is that the number of 2.5+ buck harvested the last 2 years exceeds the number of 1.5 buck carried over in the previous two years and that is statistically impossible.
Where did the Game Commission claim that only 49% of the 1-½ year old bucks were saved from harvest last year? Provide a link to that information if you don’t mind. R.S. Bodenhorn
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deerfly
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 21:34:35
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I have a better idea. Since you have unlimited access to the PGC data ,why don't you tell us the percentage of 1.5 buck that were saved by ARs in 2009. You should really enjoy providing the data that proves I was wrong,so have a ball and provide the data.
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Ironhed
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 21:37:34
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Do you cut firewood with chainsaw or axe ? Axe. The heat's in the tools! Ironhed
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 21:52:30
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
I have a better idea. Since you have unlimited access to the PGC data ,why don't you tell us the percentage of 1.5 buck that were saved by ARs in 2009. You should really enjoy providing the data that proves I was wrong,so have a ball and provide the data.
Is there a reason why you never post the links to the data you cite? If you are in fact correct then I don't see any reason not to throw it up. Honestly, if your ideas have facts basing them you will gain a lot more support if you drop the cloak and dagger act and become transparent, as you should have nothing to hide.
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Big Tuna
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/10 22:08:32
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We all know the deer herd is getting smaller and the kills will get smaller,and maybe the lower doe kill is the results of some hunters not killing them.Some of us like to see deer,just 10 or 12 years ago we didn't know what we had,I would like to see it somewhere between then and now,but it may be too late for the Pa. whitetail in some areas.
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DarDys
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RE: PGC DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES RELEASED
2011/03/11 07:43:04
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Yearling BUCKS do not have ANTLERS.
Who ever told you that ???????
Take a sip of coffee and relax, I corrected that back a few posts after Silver pointed out that I used the term yearling vs. fawn. As I stated in my corrected post, I meant to use the term fawn. What you are missing in the information I posted, once again because you are looking for something to argue, is that as this person observed, during the summer months, before the antlered deer disappeared, he was seeing about a 1:6 antlered/antlerless. The 1:3 B:D is an extension of that observation because the buck fawns during that period of time are still bucks, but they don't have visible antlers. It doesn't really matter what you count as a buck or a doe because this was not your observation. Please keep in mind that the person doing the observing is not out there to observe deer. They are doing farm, preserve, and dog work and seeing deer. They aren't out there with a notebook recording everything they see. They couldn't give two hoots about the number of deer, the antlered/antlerless ratio, or the B:D ratio. I am very surprised that they made a mental note of it at all. I suspect that the only reason they paid attend at all was because I had asked in the spring. You see Doc, not everyone is obsessed with deer and has deer on the brain 24/7. Take the observaction for what its worth or don't. The whole point was, as you confused it, and you are a deer information guru, there is a difference between what is observed as an antlered/antlerless ratio and the actual buck/doe ratio, but many mistake the antlered/antlerless ratio for the buck/doe ratio because that is what can be seen.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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