Another view from afar--

  As an elected official I can tell you that most elected officials NEVER say they were wrong, they are ALWAYS correct cause they got hit by the lightning bolt of complete knowledge in all things. Makes me wanna puke.
They will try and tweak Alts stuff forever in an effort to continue the CORRECT path- even though they may completely change it in the course of time. Hope and pray you guys- hope and pray.
    On the flip side - I remember when ALT was running around selling his theory of dont kill them young wait till they get older and everyone would have bigger racks. It sold and sold very well. Even states that didnt do it had a lot of guys wishing they had. The basic theory was great- you didnt have to be a good hunter - just wait a year or two and all the bucks would  be bragging size.
The one thing that it always meant to me was that you had to have a bigger herd to do this since you should  NOT be  harvesting young bucks which made up a big part of the annual kill rate. Clearly if doe hunting continued and the rate of button kills continued the ALT system was not ever gonna get to where it was supposed to go.
  The definitave reason I consider a bigger herd necessary is cause when you pass all the one and a half year olds waiting for them to mature another year you MUST consider how many will not make it for natural reasons (predators - winter kill- disease -etc) also for the purpose of harvesting  more large racks means you should NOT be killing off so many  2 1/2 year olds either so ya need more deer metriculateing through the ages.
  By not changing all the rules at once the only difference would be that the bulk of buck harvest would now be 2 1/2 instead  of 1 1/2 and there would be fewer taken. . That means to me  that now instead of harvesting spikes and forks you are getting small fives or sixes with the occasional skinny high eight thrown in and fewer of them to boot- Not the monsters ALT was showing around cause your target would be deer well over 2 1/2 to accomplish that goal.
This means your state NEVER went completley to truely big buck harvest objectives that most hunters wanted to try.-- Most clearly never thought it through --and believed only one more year of maturity was all that was needed. Knee jerk quick fixes NEVER get the job done correctly.
  Some of us always picked up bigger racks when hunting cause we targeted them over smaller stuff and waited- sometimes electing to pass and go without any buck at all. Those guys are still the ones CONSISTENTLY  killing bigger stuff with the occasional Luck job thrown in.
Thats why you still get big stuff even with the ALT system failing- some guys hunt that way despite what else is going on around them and some just get lucky. DONT use those deer as any measure of success or failure of the system as some tend to do here.The system has  not met its potential cause it was poorly thought out at its inception and nobody has had the guts to step up and make the changes necessary. OR just to drop it and get back to regular hunting.

And just look at some of the changes the BOC put in last year by listening to hunters rather than experts... how many did they have to change BACK this year.. really builds up my faith in their decisions.. NOT !!!!

ORIGINAL: S-10

That still doesn't justify being a big babies about it a decade later

If everyone would have kept their mouth shut and took it like you seem to suggest we wouldn't be seeing the small changes that are happening. The fact the Deer Wars hasn't settled down as many thought they would is what may drive some additional changes. Keeping up the pressure on public officials and other decision makers is the only way the average person can change things which negatively affects them.Haven't you been following the situation in the Mideast. You really need to sleep more at night and less during the day.

I never suggested keeping your mouth shut. Where do you get this stuff ? I have said in the past discussion boards are probably not the best place to be heard by the one's that matter. Yet, I'll guarantee you, that is where the most effort is put. Which brings back the original question about a picture on a discussion board making people upset. It' comical.

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

And just look at some of the changes the BOC put in last year by listening to hunters rather than experts... how many did they have to change BACK this year.. really builds up my faith in their decisions.. NOT !!!!

(in reply to SilverKype)
Report | Post #: 62

Was that a riddle or were you actually trying to make a point about something?

The desires and feelings of the DCNR and the timber industry may not be the the best management tool for any or all game species

I agree ith RSB 100%..

Now why would that surprise anyone.

And you're saying you disagree and that you think everything is just fine and we should go on as we are and have been, there's no nails of coffin ??????

Dont know if i should weep or snicker.

Can't see you weeping about anything ... you just strike me as an angry negative type that would have no feeling that deep ....


I'd say you were a snickerer....

as mentioned in a post here, in the old days hunters were also considered conservationists and folks caring about the environmnent.. not so much any more...

Would you care to point to the study or survey that supports that claim or is that just another example of swearing to anything RSB says. He couldn't support that claim either and since we are now spending more than TEN times the money that we used to on non-game species that claim is bogus.

   Back in the day states had Departments of Conservation or whatever they chose to name the agency. Most were hunting/fjishing/ parks/forestry/waterway  oriented departments with biologists and law enforcement and caretaker personel on staff. In those days they served the outdoor oriented public as they do now.
   The great difference between then and now was how that public interpreted and uses the outdoors. Now there are just as many non hunting and fishing folks using those services as there are hunters and fishermen. Some say we are in the present minority and if lisence sales are any indication we are fast becoming a very distinct minority.
     This is clearly hard for us to accept as hunters and fishermen. We have always felt that we were paying our own way and that those Govt services were there (for the most part) just for us. They are no longer, and they will continue to serve others more than us as our numbers decline- much to  our dissatisfaction and dismay.
     Our nitche in the system is clearly here to stay but not like it used to be. Perhaps in the lightly populated western states it is as we used to know it but no longer here in the populated East.
    Just look at states Like New Hampshire and Vermont that have been taken over by City folks looking to move to the country. There was even a candidate for office up there a couple of years ago whos platform was for original citizens rather than transplants---he lost.
     Those Urban rather than rural folks see the outdoors as a very different place than we do. When they take a walk and hear a shot in the distance they really do fear for their life. To butcher an animal or clean a fish is absolutely out of their life experience. They think its horrible and you are too for doing it.
     Spoke to a NY city transplant to Maine a few years ago who loved living where the Moose and Bears were although he had never seen any. He deplored anyone who Hunted them. He votes and pays taxes too and his kind are moving in and becoming the majority in far too many places.
     THAT is why some of us cant understand the policies and actions of GOVT. It is NOT the conspiracy as some may suggest nor is it some anti master plan to overcome- its simply govt doing what the majority is asking for. That usually means keeping us away from all those other folks. Remember people elect folks who they think believe in the same things they themselvs do- so when a majority becomes urban folks -thats whos making the rules.
  Guys we aint IT anymore---hunting and fishing are here to stay (for now) - but not like it was, ever again. Makes you wonder if some of the dropouts just quit trying before the rest of us- too many rules and regulations- too much fighting and arguing to be enjoyable for them anymore.
     I see it in my own elected office -few if any of my peers give a hoot about hunters- in fact they misunderstand our sport so much they look down on folks who "kill for fun"- if these guys voted to outlaw hunting few would notice.

"As in the whole nation, hunters are losing "their say" in Pa and as long as so many stay divided.. it will only get worse."
 
I agree Doc.  When are you going to come join us so that we are no longer divided?

Alt was a huckster, and as you pointed out, that was 10 years ago.  People were gillible enough to buy his pet rock in the name of something better.  If someone, who was presented as an expert, said that for but one or two years of sacrifice, one would reap a benefit, then would people be willing to give it a go?  Of course.  But at some point, when that benefit that was no one asked for, but was offered, does not pan out, then they regret being gullible.  that happens when people get lied to.
 
There are people every day that respond to ad is hopes of becoming richer, skinnier, more muscular, bigger (if you know what I mean) in hopes of a change.  But when it doesn't happen, let alone get worse, they change their mind because they didn't need for it to happen, they wanted it to happen.  Hunters didn't need bigger bucks, they thought it qould be nice.

As for taste, I like those blue-eyed, short nosed deer.  There is a reason veal is more expensive than an downer stud bull.
 
As for those that suddenly saw a bright light that they needed to kill bigger bucks, let them go at it, just don't make it a requiremnt for those that don't care.  If AR has such great support, the do away with it.  There will be more than enough that will self-regulate.  Not.

Hey Dar -you hit a lot of nails right on the head
Skippers are EATING DEER. Was taking a nice guy off the truck once and my Wife came out and congratulated me- then she asked me to shoot one we could eat.
  That 65% represented a lot of guys who would never elect to wait out a season or do the homework necessary or simply dont have the opportunity of time for those things - save an act of god- to see a big guy. 
  They thought Alts theory would make them instant big deer hunters without the efforts necessary under normal conditions..
There was a push for it in my state as well as others I hunt and I can only be thankful it didnt catch on. All the outdoor mags were featuring it for a long time there and it looked like we were  all going that way for a while.

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

ORIGINAL: DarDys

There are people every day that respond to ad is hopes of becoming richer, skinnier, more muscular, bigger (if you know what I mean) in hopes of a change.  But when it doesn't happen, let alone get worse, they change their mind because they didn't need for it to happen, they wanted it to happen.  Hunters didn't need bigger bucks, they thought it qould be nice.

How many people will succeed in reaching these goals consistently by putting in minimal effort?

 
The point is there was a certain amount of effort needed before to be successful.  Deer didn't just fall out of the sky.  there wasn't a deer behind every tree.  Teh success rate was about 20%, which meant on a seasonal basis 8 out of 10 failed to harvest a deer.  But, folks were happy with the amount of effort needed before or they would have quit.  They are not happy with putting forth the same amount or more effort and not getting a similar result, so they are quitting.  Its pretty simple, really.
 
As an example.  Let's say your truck payment is $500 per month.  You make $50 per hour at what you do (you proably don't, but I want to keep the math simple for the mathematicaly challenged folks).  That means that in order for you keep that truck, you need to put in 10 hours of effort per month.  You are okay with that.  It is a reasonable amount of effort in your opinion for the reward.
 
After paying that amount for 3, 4, 5, 7 years, you go to buy a new truck, same make, same model, just like what you have (because you like it and want another one) and the payment is $1,500 per month because of some random tax on trucks.  Now you need to put in 3X or 30 hours per month effort in order to buy that same truck.  Are you still happy?  If you are, then yuo didn't need help when you bought a truck because you would have bought one at any price.

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

I am not so sure I agree with that analogy in this instance.  Even so, I am able to understand things rarely remain static and that if I wanted that same (bigger) truck, then I would have to work harder to afford it.

The only point I was trying to make is that; when in life are you rewarded for doing the minimum in any endeavor?  Your reward is proportional to the amount of effort you put it. You are obviously a sharp businessman and I am sure you can relate to that.

Maybe due to my young age, I didn't get to experience as much as some regarding what was considered to be the "good ole days".  However, I can honestly say my hunting success has for the most part, been a direct reflection of effort exerted on my part. 

 
I keep seeing the word minimum in your posts.  That is a misnomer.  It was the required effort, not the minimum.  Again, deer were not falling out of the sky or behind every tree.  Eight out of 10 failed to get a deer.
 
Those that put in less than the required effort were rewarded with less success.  The same is true now.  those that put in less than the required effort are rewarded with less success.  The difference is they knew what was required for 40 years and now, in order to possibly, possibly, get the same results, one must put in 3X the previously required effort.  My point is that should not have been necessary, just like your truck payment going up 3X shouldn't happen.