Dr. Trout
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deerfly 
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 18:58:45
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Just how desperate are you? do you think it is a fair to compare the decline in the number of hunters in a state with CWD to the decline in the number of hunters in a state with no evidence of CWD? And, don't even attempt to deny that wasthe intent of this post because it was blatantly obvious.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 20:35:20
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I got alot more out of that study than just the references to CWD... I saw alot more about age and getting older than I did CWD .... But obviously you din't ... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/03 20:36:14
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deerfly
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 21:15:22
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I provided the dat that showed the loss of deer hunters in PA was not due to aging and you posted this report in a lame attempt to show I was wrong. Now would you please tell us how much they reduced the herd in Wisc. and how that effected the number of hunters?
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wayne c
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 21:17:25
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Just how desperate are you? do you think it is a fair to compare the decline in the number of hunters in a state with CWD to the decline in the number of hunters in a state with no evidence of CWD? Yep. I think this from the article about sums it up: "CWD is a contagious degenerative disease found in deer and elk that is transferred from animal to animal through close contact. The likelihood that CWD can be passed to humans remains unclear, and for this reason, some hunters have at times chosen not to hunt because they do not feel safe eating venison that could be infected." Course maybe thats too clear for you to understand doc? Just like how our declining herd isnt as appealing to as many hunters as it would be with more deer? The way i understand it, there was alot of anger among hunters (not to the extent of Pa of course though) about herd declines as well and not just in the cwd zone, so it seems they have a double whammy. 
post edited by wayne c - 2011/03/03 21:19:54
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S-10
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 21:28:46
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I saw alot more about age and getting older than I did CWD .... We have lost more PA junior hunters then we have senior hunters in the same time period so that claim doesn't hold water in this state.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 21:55:59
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We have lost more PA junior hunters then we have senior hunters in the same time period so that claim doesn't hold water in this state. there's your lost deer hunters ... old timers and no newcomers far more than the number of quitters.... BTW... what good does it do to quit because of lack of deer... you're just allowing the remaining ones more deer to shoot, because you are not out there shooting any ??? just like not shooting does.. you won't shoot one but then the next guy will.... seems counter -productive to me ????
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S-10
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 22:02:32
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BTW... what good does it do to quit because of lack of deer... As you have said many times, you hunt for fun---when deer hunting is no longer any fun because of lack of the reason your out there then many feel it's time to change what they do for enjoyment. You can go for a walk in better weather without carrying a gun if your just looking to commune with nature.
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psu_fish
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 22:07:52
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
We have lost more PA junior hunters then we have senior hunters in the same time period so that claim doesn't hold water in this state.
there's your lost deer hunters ... old timers and no newcomers far more than the number of quitters....
BTW... what good does it do to quit because of lack of deer... you're just allowing the remaining ones more deer to shoot, because you are not out there shooting any ???
just like not shooting does.. you won't shoot one but then the next guy will....
seems counter -productive to me ????
less hunters = less deer pushed to other hunters
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 22:15:54
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that sounds like a reciepe for fewer harvests too... and they don't want to hear that either psu ....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/03 22:16:15
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psu_fish
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/03 22:37:41
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AR/HR pushed out the hunters for the most part. Science aside, people left cause they werent happy with the direction the PGC took. Then there are guys like me who still get a deer, so they tend to put up with AR/HR then just quit hunting altogether. Personally I dont mind less hunters, but the future doesnt look good with mass exdous of middle-aged hunters that are the parents of the next generation of hunters
post edited by psu_fish - 2011/03/03 22:38:45
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 00:27:47
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Economical impact has had some effect on the number of hunters declining along with low deer population.Many camps were empty and for sale the last few years. When asked why they were selling, they said the kids are not interested anymore so why keep it. Most all property is now posted. Only the most avid hunters will be buying licenses in the future.
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deerfly
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 08:02:53
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there's your lost deer hunters ... old timers and no newcomers far more than the number of quitters....
How can you possibly make that claim when from 2000 to 2008 we recruited approx. 20 K junior hunters /yr. BTW the"K " stands for thousands ,in case you missed that the first time?!! Here is a comparison of the number of hunters lost per species from 2005 to 2009. The loss for deer hunters is from 2005 to 2008. Rabbits -9,875 Grouse -7972 Woodchuck-2,272 Crow +8,139 DEER -31,463 Based on that data we lost deer hunters at over three times the rate that we lost hunters of other species.
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S-10
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 08:30:25
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We may just as well realize that Doc is going to take the position that the lack of deer has nothing to do with hunters dropping out regardless of all the information that proves him wrong. That is the PGC's position and Doc will continue to support their position for his own personel reasons.
The only time he changes that position is when he claims it is the reduction in doe licenses that is causing people to quit. The two claims counterdict each other but he doesn't care because more doe licenses means more doe killed and that is also what the PGC wants to do.
The folks running the KQDC realize that lack of deer is starting to mean fewer hunters for them and are starting to be more aggressive in trying to recruit more guns for that area. They know that if they lose the hunters before getting the herd reduced to where predators and natural mortality can keep them in check the whole HR scheme could backfire on them. That is documented in their reports.
Doc and some others just continue to make excuses while the state continues to lose hunters. The PGC claims not to have the money to study why we are losing hunters but has the money to study hawk migration paths. Of course all one has to do is look at the data already available to see
the coorelation between the reduction in deer and loss of deer hunters and no study is needed.
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deerfly
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 08:40:59
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Well said and I agree completely. Guys like DT and RSB ignore the facts and believe the PGC propaganda because it suits their agenda.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 10:44:45
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Boy you guys are good at reading what someone writes then take parts of it and make up something completely new.... here's another perfect example... The only time he changes that position is when he claims it is the reduction in doe licenses that is causing people to quit. That was referring to non-residents not buying licenses not sure I ever said a Pa resident quit because he/she did not get a tag.. I did say that get peezed if they do not get one... but I have never heard of one quiting because of it ??? no study is needed. Naturally you would not want a study.. it may prove YOU wrong... We may just as well realize that Doc is going to take the position that the lack of deer has nothing to do with hunters dropping out I have NEVER said guys were not quiting because of lack of deer, or at least blaming it on that... guys were using that excuse years ago.... guys that are not successful and do not want to try to improve find it easy to quit and blame someone or something else... I just do not believe it's the #1 reason and that is all I have been saying.. and yes a study would show the various reasons, and I would love to see one done... but again as I have said , most of what I read nationwide shows an aging population as the #1 reason... As for data.. you guys post the reasons yourself.. but choose to look at them differently than I do.. Rabbits -9,875
Grouse -7972
Woodchuck-2,272
Crow +8,139
DEER -31,463 Lost 20,000 in the first 3 == Rabbits = walking and dogs Grouse = walking and dogs Woodchuck = walking & sitting Crow = walking & sitting small game == Mostly fall warm weather... shotguns, light clothing deer = lots of walking and sitting and if successful DRAGGING... Usually Cold, often wet weather.. rifles... heavy cloths How often do you read about a heartache while hunting rabbits, squirrels, grouse, woodchucks, or crows ??? So you can see that the sport (game) that requires the better physical health leads the game species that folks leave first... What you can realize is that Doc is saying health and age are the #1 and #2 reason (not sure which is which)folks stop hunting deer.... not lack of them..
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/04 10:48:26
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S-10
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 12:21:59
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quote:
no study is needed. Naturally you would not want a study.. it may prove YOU wrong... It's not me that claims there isn't enough money for game or hunter related studies EVEN THOUGH they have a budget SURPLUS of over $39,000,000 and had enough money to hire 14 new people for NON-GAME issues. I guess mapping song bird habitat is more important than finding out why we are losing deer hunters over twice as fast as hunters in general and far faster than the nationwide average.
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 12:32:29
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
there's your lost deer hunters ... old timers and no newcomers far more than the number of quitters....
How can you possibly make that claim when from 2000 to 2008 we recruited approx. 20 K junior hunters /yr. BTW the"K " stands for thousands ,in case you missed that the first time?!!
Here is a comparison of the number of hunters lost per species from 2005 to 2009. The loss for deer hunters is from 2005 to 2008.
Rabbits -9,875
Grouse -7972
Woodchuck-2,272
Crow +8,139
DEER -31,463
Based on that data we lost deer hunters at over three times the rate that we lost hunters of other species.
How about putting something meaningful next to those number? Perhaps the amount of hunters total who are participating in hunting each species would be of interest to make the data meaningful. If 10k rabbit hunters quit out of 100k total bunny hunters and 31k deer hunters quit out of 700k total deer hunters; which group of hunters is quitting at faster rate? I still haven't figured out if your just that clueless when you are misrepresenting data or if you do it intentially.
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deerfly
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 12:44:28
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I have NEVER said guys were not quiting because of lack of deer, or at least blaming it on that... guys were using that excuse years ago.... guys that are not successful and do not want to try to improve find it easy to quit and blame someone or something else...
I just do not believe it's the #1 reason and that is all I have been saying.. and yes a study would show the various reasons, and I would love to see one done... but again as I have said , most of what I read nationwide shows an aging population as the #1 reason. . Are you actually claiming that hunters got older at a much higher rate during the period after the DMP was implemented than in the 8 years before the plan was implemented. Did the hunters health also decline at a much higher rate after the plan was implemented despite the gains of modern medicine. If so, maybe the new DMP and low deer numbers made them so sick they quit deer hunting.  The PGC claims that decreasing deer numbers was not responsible for the loss of hunters and that increasing the number of deer would not reduce the rate at hunters quit deer hunting. But,as usual the history of our herd and deer hunting tells a different story. In 1940 ,when our hurt was much lower than it is today the PGC sold 629K tags. During the war years sales increased to 713K in 1945 and as the herd continued to increase to around 40 DPSM, license sales increased to 1,184,975 and by the early 80s it increased to 1.3M. So there was an obvious correlation between increasing deer numbers and license sales, just as there is an obvious correlation between the decrease in hunter numbers and the decrease in the number one game species in the state.
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rmcmillen09
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 12:53:04
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S-10 I do get my deer, deer,s every year love turkey hunting also mentored 5 youth hunters in the past and am not pursuing a pa.hunting lisc this year 11 just like 09 I didn't go and as far as the current is program in place I may never hunt pa. again +1 more gone just tired of what it has become.
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S-10
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 13:10:00
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It's probably not the best comparison but then neither is Docs way of adding them all up to try to prove something. What is important and does mean something is that between 94% and 96% of all hunters nationwide identify themselves as deer hunters. Some of them also identify themselves as grouse, rabbit etc but nearly all identify themselves as deer hunters. Deer hunting is far and away the most popular hunting sport nationwide.
Pennsylvania has lost deer hunters over twice as fast as hunters in general since 2001.
Pennsylvania has lost deer hunters 10 times as fast as the nationwide average since 2001.
The WMI audit charts showed the loss.
The WMI audit documented the ongoing unhappiness of the deer hunters and said it needed to be addressed.
The KQDC documented the concern that low deer numbers was driving away hunters from their study areas .
The buck harvest has been reduced 47% since 2001. Would most people be happy with a 47% reduction in pay for the same amount of work?
New hunter numbers were increasing every year until the effects of HR were felt. Since then their numbers have decreased every year.
Eventually even the most PRO HR person should have the light come on. I think it has for many but it is just to hard to admit it after so many years of supporting AR/HR. For a few it is just too much fun to stir the soup.
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S-10
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 13:19:50
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I may never hunt pa. again +1 more gone just tired of what it has become. I understand where your coming from. It doesn't look like it's going to get any better either. At least Ohio and N.Y. is fairly close. I've never tried W.V..
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 13:43:23
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WV has a lot to offer. Their fish and game is respected more by hunters than the PGC. I think our surrounding states will notice an increase in license sales from Pa as the PGC continues their ways.I know a lot of past OH hunters who have refused to come back to Pa, as they put it "the PGC is truly a joke " . ORIGINAL: S-10
I may never hunt pa. again +1 more gone just tired of what it has become.
I understand where your coming from. It doesn't look like it's going to get any better either. At least Ohio and N.Y. is fairly close. I've never tried W.V..
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rmcmillen09
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/04 15:17:51
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12 miles from Ohio line would be my choice of convenience .
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SilverKype
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/05 20:47:11
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ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter
ORIGINAL: deerfly
there's your lost deer hunters ... old timers and no newcomers far more than the number of quitters....
How can you possibly make that claim when from 2000 to 2008 we recruited approx. 20 K junior hunters /yr. BTW the"K " stands for thousands ,in case you missed that the first time?!!
Here is a comparison of the number of hunters lost per species from 2005 to 2009. The loss for deer hunters is from 2005 to 2008.
Rabbits -9,875
Grouse -7972
Woodchuck-2,272
Crow +8,139
DEER -31,463
Based on that data we lost deer hunters at over three times the rate that we lost hunters of other species.
How about putting something meaningful next to those number? Perhaps the amount of hunters total who are participating in hunting each species would be of interest to make the data meaningful.
If 10k rabbit hunters quit out of 100k total bunny hunters and 31k deer hunters quit out of 700k total deer hunters; which group of hunters is quitting at faster rate?
I still haven't figured out if your just that clueless when you are misrepresenting data or if you do it intentially.
Why no response from deerfly? I thought it was a good question.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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deerfly
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/05 21:34:40
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My response was that Essox was free to provide the data that shows I was wrong. If that isn't good enough for you ,please feel free to provide the data yourself.
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SilverKype
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/05 21:41:18
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I think you're gasping. You said we are losing deer hunters at 3 times the rate of other hunting. The raw numbers don't mean a thing in your comments without comparing the total number of hunters to the total number of hunters lost in a % for the categories you provided. You made the statement so back it up.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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deerfly
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/05 22:04:19
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Feel free to provide the data that shows that the data i posted was flawed.
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S-10
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/05 22:23:57
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Numbers are a funny thing. They can be used and abused. Per the WMI audit we lost 9% of our hunters from 2001 through 2008-----------------Per the WMI audit we lost 22% of our deer hunters from 2001 through 2008.-----------------Per the QDMA, nationwide we lost 2% of our deer hunters from 2001 through 2006.
One could argue there is a problem with our deer hunting.
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SilverKype
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RE: Age & Hunting
2011/03/05 22:39:57
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Feel free to provide the data that shows that the data i posted was flawed.
The concept you posted is very flawed. Esox already pointed it out. You are using raw numbers to come up with a rate of lose.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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