Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 13:12:01
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and especially because alot quit because of age, health, death, and work duties and more deer in the woods will not change any of those factors... and as I keep saying the baby boomers quiting now will not come back either just because of more deer...
other states are losing hunters too and many have plenty of deer... hunting is declining across the nation === it's not all about deer ...... face it ....
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dpms
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 13:16:04
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
The WCOs and land managers in some WMUs are already begging the hunters to come back, Would one of those be 2G?
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deerfly 
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 14:59:02
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
and especially because alot quit because of age, health, death, and work duties and more deer in the woods will not change any of those factors... and as I keep saying the baby boomers quiting now will not come back either just because of more deer...
other states are losing hunters too and many have plenty of deer... hunting is declining across the nation === it's not all about deer ...... face it ....
You are the one that won't face reality. We lost deer hunters at a much faster rate from 2000 to 2008 then we lost general license sales. Junior license sales were increasing until 2004. Furthermore we only lost 11K deer hunters from 1986 to 1992 when the herd was increasing, but lost 73K hunters from 1993 to 1998 after the record high antlerless harvests in the early 90s which reduced the herd.
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deerfly
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 14:59:45
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ORIGINAL: dpms
ORIGINAL: deerfly
The WCOs and land managers in some WMUs are already begging the hunters to come back,
Would one of those be 2G?
Ask RSB!! He has all the answers. 
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dpms
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 15:59:14
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Ask RSB!! He has all the answers.
Nah, I was asking you. You disputed the possibility that lower hunter density in 2G may have contributed to lower harvests in 2G.
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deerfly
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 16:30:25
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I may be wrong but I disputed the fact that lower hunter density was the main reason for the reduced harvests. Obviously fewer doe tags will result in lower harvests, but according to the PGC were still enough to keep the herd stable. So ,even if there were fewer hunters they were still harvesting all the deer that could be harvested based on the size of the OW herd.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 17:18:14
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You are the one that won't face reality. We lost deer hunters at a much faster rate from 2000 to 2008 then we lost general license sales. Junior license sales were increasing until 2004.
Furthermore we only lost 11K deer hunters from 1986 to 1992 when the herd was increasing, but lost 73K hunters from 1993 to 1998 after the record high antlerless harvests in the early 90s which reduced the herd same old silly arguement.. check out the average age of the Pa hunter back in 1986 to 1992... every year more and more hunters get older and less healthy and some even die... there is not alot of folks taking there places.. thus the number of deer hunters goes down.. I mean come on.. you have to be alot healthier to hunt deer than sit and shoot squirrels... or sit and call in turkeys... Since the average guy (let's say the average was 45, which is probably close - off the top of my head))in 1990 is now at least 65 so naturally every year more and more older guys are going to hang deer hunting up.. and the youth especially the past 4-5 years are not coming close to replacing them. It is a fact and mentioned in thousands of article that the population is getting older and that tells me that would be #1 reason folks are hanging up hunting as a recreation across the USA not just in Pa.. It looks bad because we always had so many to start with. You can think it's deer.. I'll continue to think (just like nationwide) it's the older population quitting and no replacements coming into the sport...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/03 20:38:47
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wayne c
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 17:48:34
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The deer are a factor.
Saying otherwise is just trying to make pgc look less irresponsible for not addressing the issue. Its not even debatable as far as im concerned, and i think its ridiculous that this has gone on as many times as it has. What should be common sense to all is actually being debated is pretty funny imho.
What is debatable is HOW MUCH has the deer situation contributed to declines in recruitment and retention. Thats impossible to answer. Though i think any amount is significant especially when you consider all the other factors as well that nothing can be done about.
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deerfly
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 18:05:55
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
You are the one that won't face reality. We lost deer hunters at a much faster rate from 2000 to 2008 then we lost general license sales. Junior license sales were increasing until 2004.
Furthermore we only lost 11K deer hunters from 1986 to 1992 when the herd was increasing, but lost 73K hunters from 1993 to 1998 after the record high antlerless harvests in the early 90s which reduced the herd
same old silly arguement.. check out the average age of the Pa hunter back in 1986 to 1992...
every year more and more hunters get older and less healthy and some even die... there is not alot of folks taking there places.. thus the number of deer hunters goes down.. I mean come on.. you have to be alot healthier to hunt deer than sit and shoot squirrels... or sit and call in turkeys...
Since the average guy (let's say the average was 45, which is probably close - off the top of my head))in 1990 is now at least 65 so naturally every year more and more older guys are going to hang deer hunting up.. and the youth especially the past 4-5 years are not coming close to replacing them.
It is a fact and mentioned in thousands of article that the population is getting older and that tells me that would be #1 reason folks are hanging up hunting as a recreation across the USA not just in Pa.. It looks bad because we always had so many to start with.
You can think it's deer..
I'll continue to think (just like nationwide) it's the older population quitting and no replacements coming into the sport...
You may think that my position is silly, but unlike you I have the data that supports my position. While we lost 200K deer hunters from 2000 to 2008,at the same time we were recruiting an average of 20K junior hunters every year so during those 9 years we recruited around 180K new junior hunters, During that same period senior license sales only decreased by around 11K. Therefore , it is blatantly obvious that the loss of 200K deer hunters was not due to older hunters quitting. Instead the loss of 200K deer hunters is due to a decline in all age classes of deer hunters,including archers and non-resident hunters.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 18:14:26
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I never said deer do not play a part.... I just do not think it's in the top several reasons.. I have always heard guys threatening to quit because they did not get a deer.. always... and I am sure some of them followed thru even back in the 80s and 90s... when people are not successful at a chosen type of recreation many find it easier to quit than do what is necessary to become successful at it, IMHO it doesn't matter if it's Pa deer hunting, golf, bowling, pool, tennis, fly fishing, darts, steel-head fishing, etc... see folks got spoiled deer hunting when we had so many... it was if the PGC just supplied the deer to shoot you just had to go out sit and wait for one to come by... not alot of work or effort was required... none of those others recreations I mentioned are "gimmees" you have to get involved, practice and study the sport to be successful at it... watching golf on tv and then buying some clubs , hit the driving range, and then head to the golf course did not mean you were going to be successful... where as many watched buck masters on tv when out bought a gun, went to the rifle range, then sat in the woods opening day and shot a deer with legal antlers... they were successful immediately...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/03 20:40:42
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 18:22:48
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but unlike you I have the data that supports my position. BULL.... what you have is a number = how many less licenses were sold in that period.. you have showed NOTHING as to the numbers for the various reason folks quit.. those number are not out there anywhere... the various reason and the numbers for those.. let's see that data (figures) !!!!.. you know as well as I do lack of deer is not going to be #1.... it will be age and/or health you just choose to claim (like your usp) === THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DEER...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/03 18:23:56
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deerfly
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 18:39:01
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ee folks got spoiled deer hunting when we had so many... it was if the PGC just supplied the deer to shoot yuo just had tro go oiut sit and wait for one to come by... not alot of work or effort was required...
That is the typical meaningless response of a PGC supporter. there was never a time when the average PGC hunter could go out and just sit for one to come by. Even when we had 1.5M PS deer the majority if hunters still didn't harvest a deer. It was never a gimme for the average hunter and it is much worse now.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 20:52:32
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Even when we had 1.5M PS deer the majority if hunters still didn't harvest a deer. I never said the majority got a deer...where did you read that .. certainly was not in my post...???? Here's what I wrote == see folks got spoiled deer hunting when we had so many... it was if the PGC just supplied the deer to shoot you just had to go out sit and wait for one to come by... not alot of work or effort was required... I meant it was easy for alot of the successful hunters ... and we all know there were those complaining back then that there was not enough deer.. I said too many got spoiled, it was easy for many now it's those folks doing the complaining and quiting... the guys that put in the time and energy and were succesful then and now and are NOT the one quiting because of lack of deer... we are still killing them even with reduced herds...
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S-10
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:10:12
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I mean come on.. you have to be alot healthier to hunt deer than sit and shoot squirrels... or sit and call in turkeys... By your own admissions on this board your living proof that statement is not true.
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S-10
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:11:43
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we are still killing them even with reduced herds... We are killing nearly 50% fewer of them as a result of reduced herds.
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deerfly
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:12:05
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Apparently you forgot that the PGC claims that hunters are just as successful today as they were 20 years ago,which means the PGC believes killing a deer is just as easy now as it was 20 years ago. But the PGC doesn't seem to realize that hunters enjoy just seeing deer even if they don't get to harvest one and the average hunter today is seeing a lot fewer deer than they saw 20 years ago.
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S-10
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:21:04
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I'll continue to think (just like nationwide) it's the older population quitting and no replacements coming into the sport... You would be thinking wrong and you know better---From 2000 to 2008 Senior hunters fell by 12,260 Adult hunters fell by 103,773 Junior hunters fell by 17,657 You know better but just hope others have forgot 
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:28:25
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To be fair, I know many people in their mid-late 50's that are not senior hunters, who quit hunting because; "it wasrough on my knees" "it was too hard on my back" "I don't have the energy to get up the hills anymore" "my heart can't take it" ect. I work with a number of these people and some are even family/friends of the family.
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S-10
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:34:02
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There has always been some of that but it doesn't explain the loss of more junior hunters than senior hunters.It also doesn't explain why we have lost 24% of the out of state hunters while the number of Ohio out of state hunters has more than doubled and most of them are from PA including many from this board. Actually, percentage wise across the nation Pennsylvania has historically produced the most non-resident hunters. We have always had the reputation of being the hardest and most patient hunters of any of the states. It's just been since 2001 that Alt and the Audubon has tried to protray us as lazy. Go to any of the western states and the outfitters always talk of Pa hunters as the most dedicated to the sport.
post edited by S-10 - 2011/03/03 21:43:13
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:45:39
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No I never implied anything at all that it would account for the loss of juniors. Just simply pointing out that most of the baby boomers are not seniors by definition, yet I know many who have quit due to health reasons, as Doc stated.
I have told you my thoughts on Ohio before. It is still highly regarded as a big buck mecca whether you like it or not and is far more of a destination state than PA will ever be. Sure, some of PA's hunters are jumping the border, but I don't believe that is anywhere close to the whole story.
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S-10
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 21:53:52
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It is still highly regarded as a big buck mecca whether you like it or not I never said that--what I said was other states have surpassed it in popularity in the last decade due to an increase in large bucks. Illinois and Kansas to name two.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 22:27:31
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quote:
I mean come on.. you have to be alot healthier to hunt deer than sit and shoot squirrels... or sit and call in turkeys...
By your own admissions on this board your living proof that statement is not true lost me on this one ????? care to explain ???? I've said a thousand times that after heart surgery I do not feel I can drag a deer very far so I still hunt deer but do not concentrate on the tough really good areas for that reason.. thus one has to be in good health to hunt deer... I have no problem squirrel hunting and don't hunt turkeys but image I could do that with no health concerns.. there is not that much problem dragging a turkey out of the woods is there ??
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/03 22:42:41
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You would be thinking wrong and you know better---From 2000 to 2008
Senior hunters fell by 12,260
Adult hunters fell by 103,773
Junior hunters fell by 17,657
You know better but just hope others have forgot Just to touch on what essox posted.. go back and READ my posts about this subject .. I mention senior hunters and I also mention older hunters even more... I posted older guy quit because of health and age not just guys over 65... to be a senior hunter you have to be 65 or older... I'll bet that is the smallest class of Pa hunters.. so losing 12,260 of them is no surprise... now as Essox mentioned and I posted yesterday about the Ohio folks around here only one of the health reasons for quitting is a senior hunters the others are in their 50s.... most of the Pa guys I know that have quit for health reasons are not seniors.. some are but most are just older hunters as I posted... 50-64... they are in that adult group of 103,773 ...
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dpms
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/04 07:40:53
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
I may be wrong but I disputed the fact that lower hunter density was the main reason for the reduced harvests.OW herd.
In our conversation, I suggested that lower hunter density was a contributing factor to the decreasing harvests in certain areas. Because that did not jive with the your agenda, you denied lower hunter density was a contributing factor at all and that it had to be lower deer populations. Now I find it ironic that somewhere in this thread you are claiming that WCOs are in desperate need of hunters that left certain areas because the herd is increasing. Though, admittedly, you punted when I asked you if you were referring to 2G becuase you knew where I was going with your double talk.
post edited by dpms - 2011/03/04 07:44:36
My rifle is a black rifle
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deerfly
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/04 08:10:19
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n our conversation, I suggested that lower hunter density was a contributing factor to the decreasing harvests in certain areas. Because that did not jive with the your agenda, you denied lower hunter density was a contributing factor at all and that it had to be lower deer populations.Â
Did the lower hunter densities in 2F or 2G over the last 4 years allow the herd to increase? If not, then reduced hunter density did not have a significant effect on the harvest.
Though, admittedly, you punted when I asked you if you were referring to 2G becuase you knew where I was going with your double talk. I never know where you are going and I am not sure you do either. I simply didn't remember the specific WMU where the PGC was begging for more hunters and I didn't want to waste my time looking it up for someone that wouldn't appreciate my efforts.
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DarDys
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/04 09:15:52
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ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter
To be fair, I know many people in their mid-late 50's that are not senior hunters, who quit hunting because; "it wasrough on my knees" "it was too hard on my back" "I don't have the energy to get up the hills anymore" "my heart can't take it" ect. I work with a number of these people and some are even family/friends of the family.
I know a lot of those poeple too. But you know what, when they could actually go out and get a deer, they still hunted with those ailments because it was worth it -- they got something for their pain. Now that they are not seeing a return in exchange for the pain, the ailment becomes an excuse to quit.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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SilverKype
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/04 09:48:36
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If hunting is considered a "pain" - it's time to hang it up, deer down or not. I say peace out !
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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DarDys
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/04 10:33:51
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
If hunting is considered a "pain" - it's time to hang it up, deer down or not. I say peace out !
The pain I was referring to were those in Esox's post -- rough on the knees, too hard on my back, etc. Right now it takes me a day or so of recovery after a hunt. I imagine in the near future that time frame will be longer. As an example, after hunitng the first Saturday of this season my wife was so sore and stiff and in pain she barely could move on Sunday. After muddling through a half day of work on Monday, she couldn't stand it any more and had to go to the Chiropractor to get straightened out. That lead to two more trips that week. For those that are not as successful as they once were, it may reach a point where the recovery and pain are not longer worth it to them.
post edited by DarDys - 2011/03/04 10:38:31
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/04 11:01:39
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For those that are not as successful as they once were, it may reach a point where the recovery and pain are not longer worth it to them.
so why would they quit.. because they were not as successful or because as you mentioned the recovery time and pain are too much to bare any more... most folks I know with bad kness, backs and hearts find the condition only gets worse.... so at some point they have to quit... it does not matter if there are 100 deer or 10,000 deer.. THE CONDITION STOPS THEM ---- and rather than admit to poor health I image some use the not worth the pain anymore excuse rather than admit to failing health.. that's kind of human nature though.... most folks do not like to admit old age is catching up with them... which would you say.. #1 = My body just can't take it anymore, I'm too old, so I'm quitting OR === #2 = the deer herd is so low it's not worth going out there anymore... I'm fine, it's just that there aren't any deer.... so I'm quitting
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/03/04 11:04:01
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DarDys
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RE: Commisssioner Putnam on 2G ===
2011/03/04 11:28:43
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
For those that are not as successful as they once were, it may reach a point where the recovery and pain are not longer worth it to them.
so why would they quit..
because they were not as successful
or because as you mentioned the recovery time and pain are too much to bare any more...
most folks I know with bad kness, backs and hearts find the condition only gets worse....
so at some point they have to quit... it does not matter if there are 100 deer or 10,000 deer..
THE CONDITION STOPS THEM ----
and rather than admit to poor health I image some use the not worth the pain anymore excuse rather than admit to failing health.. that's kind of human nature though.... most folks do not like to admit old age is catching up with them...
which would you say..
#1 = My body just can't take it anymore, I'm too old, so I'm quitting
OR ===
#2 = the deer herd is so low it's not worth going out there anymore... I'm fine, it's just that there aren't any deer.... so I'm quitting
Its a concept known as diminishing returns. Everything has a price. It is up to the consumer to decide if the product is worth the price. As either the price gets higher or the prodcut gets worse, there comes a point when it is no longer worth the price for the product -- the return of the product value has diminished to the point that it no longer provides the return for the price. As an example. Let's say a bottle of beer costs $1. That is a reasonable price and there are many beer drinkers that partake. Now, the price of beer increases to $5 per bottle. To a certain subset of those that drink beer, that is too much to pay for the same beer, so they stop drinking beer. Of course, there are those that still continue to drink beer. When the price goes to $10 per bottle, even more beer drinkers will quit drinking beer, because they can buy wine for $2 per glass. In other words, at some point, the price of beer rose ot the point that there was a diminshed return for the cost. To take that to deer hunting, I do not doubt that some people must quit because of a physical conditon. But there is a more significant sector of the deer hunting population that came to the conclusion that while they was willng to put up with sore knees, or an aching back or being stiff and sore for a couple of days after going hunting when the outcome was a decent chance at seeing and harvesting a deer, they are not willing to pay that same pain price when their chances have diminished to the point they have now. In this case, the condition hasn't stopped them, the lack of return on their investment has. The physical ability is still there, but the willingness to go through it for the lessened chance of being successful is not. Therfore the physical ailments become an excuse for not going deer hunting any longer.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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