If I were to average my time spent hunting in over the last 5 years, I would be at 100+ hours per year.  So it takes me 100+ hours of hunting to kill a buck.  However, that is slightly skewed since I am somewhat selective about the bucks I harvest and I generally pass up some chances at legal bucks.  At any rate, these bucks are not exactly falling into my lap. 
 
I have yet to encounter many endeavours in life where bare minimum effort will yield consistent success.  I firmly believe you get as much out of hunting as you put into it.   
 

I thought that was were you were coming from.  No need to read between my lines.
 
As for this:
 
"PLUS we just disagree on "expecting" thinks to happen and "hoping" for something to happen

does a golfer expect a hole in one on every shot ??
a bowler a strike every time he releases the ball ??
A hockey player a goal every time he touches the puck ??
How about a football team do they expect a sack, fumble, interception on every play on defense ??
A touch down every play on offense ??"

For the golfer, if it is a par 3 they should.
For the bowler, aboslutely.  People do bowl 300 games you know.
If the hockey player is attempting to score and not just get a rebound for a teammate to score, yes.
For football, on defense, to stop the play for no gain would be the goal, every play
For football, on offense, as my old coach was found of saying, there is no reason why, if everyone does their job, you shouldn't score on every play -- you only have one person to beat -- so, yes.
 
Will they happen all the time, obviously not.  But you plan, hone your skills, and attmept for them to -- everytime.
 
No golf takes a swing at the ball with the thought, I hope I don't to hit this one in the woods, but if I do, they are lovely to walk around in this time of year.
No bowler steps to the line with the thought, I hope this doesn't go in the gutter, but if it does, I get to throw another ball so I am getting more bowling time for my bowling dollar.
No hockey play shoots a puck in an attmept to score with thought of, oh weel, if it doesn't go in, at least I get to skate around.
No defensive player in football thinks right before the snap, I hope I don't get faked out, but if I do, the grass is pretty nice. 
No offensive player in football thinks right before the snap that if I break free, I am going to stop running in an attempt to score and just walk toward the end zone because I want to get a better view of the crowd.
 
Expecting means you have some input into the outcome.  Hope means that you don't.  I expect to win a contest because of skills and experience.  I hope to win the lottery if the randomly drawn numbers match my randomly selected numbers.

well === we'll just continue to disagree..

it does allow me to sort of see "into" you though..


and I can see why you are complaining about the deer situation.. you have been "LUCKY" (MHO)be it for what every reason.. skill, location,. expectations, what ever... deer hunting became easy for you 28 deer in less than 100 hours in 28 years.. you EXPECTED to kill a deer in a short matter of time every trip out..now it is not that way, you can no longer EXPECT to kill a deer
every trip out and you don't like it and may be having trouble adapting to it after not having to hunt this way for so many years... which is fine... I can see why you complain.. but that is your case not the average Joe deer hunter...that I try to show and explain.. you know the guys who have for years and years and years only managed a buck every 3-4 years and maybe a doe even less... but still love the sport and never complain... like a couple of my neighbor camps... there are two guys one each from 2 different camps that come up every year, hunt and I love BSing, hunting , etc with them.. they have never, I repeat NEVER shot a buck since I lived here... NEVER... and I have never heard them complain about it.. they love it when the "others (younger guys)get one"

but it also allows us just to see why you, and some others, feel the way you do as compared to the ones that are adjusting and understanding the deer hunting situation in the 2000s with out all the complaining...... and MANY of the "average Joe" hunters have NEVER had the success you have had so naturally have never expected a deer every time out or would not have as much trouble adjusting to the current deer hunting situation... and just as naturally can not understand why guys are complaining... almost 90% of the hunters I know and talk to have never shot a buck year after year.. most say about every 3 years they shot one.. they say it is harder now than ever but like the bigger ones they do see even if not while hunting.. it keeps their "HOPES" up for when they are in the woods.

do you really think someone (that average guy)who shoots a buck every two or three years has any sympathy or understanding for the guy complaining who averages one every year.. year after year... NOT !!!

and IMHO there in lies the main difference and the start of the "deer wars" discussions...


here's the part I can in NO WAY understand...


what fun would it be if every par three was a hole in one ????
every roll was a strike ??
every cast was a fish ???

WOW this says alot in my book ===

For football, on offense, as my old coach was found of saying, there is no reason why, if everyone does their job, you shouldn't score on every play -- you only have one person to beat -

If that were true no one would ever score .. and if you did how could you have any feeling of success.. because the truth is == someone on defense DID NOT do their job.. (they were probably told the exact same thing about no gain) so it was not your success === it was their failure to do the job that allowed you to score....?????????????

glad winning was NEVER pushed down my throat that hard... Do your best was always my lesson.. and if you do that win or lose IT'S OKAY and you are not a loser... !!!!


I can only immage how I would feel towards the guard on my team when he missed his block.. I'd have to HATE him for not allowing me to score my touchdown that I expect to make every time I get the ball..and get the cheers for it... after a season of running and not scoring a touchdown everytime I can see that in time I would get to be an angry person in general... it would always be someone else's fault I did not do as I expected to do ..



INTERESTING

  Never thought to count hunting hours- Mine start in the Summer when I begin to scout the hunting areas out. Even in places where I have hunted for years- things can change-. New blow downs -new generations of deer using new trails Etc., forest maturity changing eating habits, lousy mast crops or great ones.
  Always been lucky here in CT with Pvt. hunting places where others dont go. ( must have written permission of a landowner) and bucks often abound.
   Things change though -many of my old places are now housing projects and shopping Malls, also  dont get around the hills as much as the old days so the bucks are now a bit farther apart. Like Doc says--you start to consider the drag when you get farther out.

Our group all agree that deer hunting is much less enjoyable due to the negative effects of ARs and HR. The ladies especially don't like the added press of looking for brow tines and making sure a point is at least one inch long. We use to enjoy doe season and the late ML season but now we feel guilty about harvesting a doe I never thought I'd see the day when someone would say I was being hypocritical for letting my niece harvest her first deer, but it happened. Some say we should hunt harder, but more hunting pressure just drives the deer into areas where we don't have access.

A guy I know who hunts from a camp in Monroe Co. said the hunting is so bad he was hoping it would be raining the first day so he'd have a excuse not to go out. I haven't reached that point yet ,but a few more years like last year and I may develop the same attitude. It already happened to the 200K deer hunters that quit since 2000, so I guess it could happen to me.

sorry beenthere... but I still do not see the common sense in someone claiming there are no deer and females should not be shot going out and shooting one in that same area, period....

go somewhere else that has more deer and harvest one there...

I understand it was a youth, but still, saying one thing then doing the opposite just escapes my understanding.. OR are you saying there are enough deer there for some to be harvested but you personally would like to see more... If the deer are there and someone else does not agree about letting them go and honestly harvests one so be it... he should not have to adopt your opinions on the number of deer in the area and not shoot one and if the PGC says there are deer there ... same thing.. shoot one if you want.. just because some want more is no reason to not harvest one if you feel it will not harm the herd....

as for this

Some say we should hunt harder, but more hunting pressure just drives the deer into areas where we don't have access.

By hunting harder I have ALWAYS meant the individual...
there are less hunters in the woods pushing deer.. so a guy can not expect/hope to just sit and wait anymore.. that means he/she has to work harder... more scouting, new areas, moving more, with older wiser deer a hunter must learn to adapt to the behavior of older deer, 1.5 year old deer do not act, travel, bed, hide, etc the same as a 2.5 to 4 year old deer does ... and that in the past is what the average hunter was accustomed to hunting and harvesting for the most part...one must work harder for mature deer and I have read that in books and magazines as long as I can remember..

the big ones did not or do not get that way acting young and being stupid.....

    Ever since the end of subsistence "hunting" and the beginning of "sport" hunting the filling of tags has NOT been the epicenter of the experience. That being said it is in fact HUNTING and every now and then you gotta score.     Otherwise you may just as well just sit at home and watch a wildlife show on TV.

Yet you hunt in a WMU that routinely is among the top few WMUs in harvests. It can't be as bad as you make people believe considering the amount of deer killed their every season.

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

Yet you hunt in a WMU that routinely is among the top few WMUs in harvests. It can't be as bad as you make people believe considering the amount of deer killed their every season.

Have you ever hunted in an area with 125 doe tags PFSM? Do you realize that half of the buck in 5C are harvested by archers before rifle hunters even set foot in the woods? Do you understand that the harder you hunt an area in 5 C the less deer you will see? Do you have any idea of what you are talking about?

Individual hunters may have SRAs figured out based on their ability to access certain areas but the PGC doesn't have a clue as how to manage the herd in SRA areas.

ORIGINAL: deerfly

Individual hunters may have SRAs figured out based on their ability to access certain areas but the PGC doesn't have a clue as how to manage the herd in SRA areas.

 
Have you taken your better idea to Elmerton Ave and presented it to the commissioners? Everyone has the same opportunity to seek out the deer in the SRA.  Yes, it can be hard, but it can be done based on the fact that there are huge numbers killed there.

I primarily hunt in the most "rural" area of 2B. I know a thing or two about high pressure and anyone that hunts the area will attest to that. But, the harvests don't lie and we still are killing lots of deer as is your area. Your argument is weak at best.

I see 8500 tags for 5C went unsold. I guess the PGC must look like total buffoons with regard to that as well.

By the way, I am still waiting for an answer.....

ORIGINAL: deerfly
 the PGC doesn't have a clue as how to manage the herd in SRA areas.

 
Have you taken your ideas to Elmerton Ave, and present it to the commissioners? 
 
You do know that at least commissioner recently asked the hunting public for ideas to redefine the SRA boundaries or create sub units within to better manage the urban deer herd. 
 

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

The main problem is somebody #1 does not and evidently did not believe there was a need to reduce the widgets number in the first place... and PROBABLY expected it wopuld not effect them... but it did.... so he is not going to be happy NO MATTER WHAT... unlees the put all those widgets back for him to get...



somebody #2 thought there was a justifiable need to reduce the number of widgets...

naturally #2 is not going to be as upset because the reduction does not effect him as much as #1... can I understand #1 being upset.. yes in a way.. but his success was not the norm.. and hopefully would realize most did not get 90% of the widgets,,,

but where are the deer hunters in Pa.. MANY more of them are like somebody #2... and are learning to deal with it rather than complain and blame the reduction and their lack of success today with less widgets and on the PGC who reduced the numbers..

plus many are willing to forgo being upset in "hopes" of a bigger widget than they ever imagined...

we do not hope to catch walleye, we expect to catch walleye because of the skill and knowledge of the Captain. To say that we hope that we would catch walleye would be an insult to him.

I wonder if that is true .... if ironhead or any captian would think it was an insult if I said I hope we found some fish to catch today ..


hell you are not even allowed to take bananas on iron's boat.. what does that have to do with his knowledge or skill...


I can see you would have been one of the ones really pezzed-off on that first perch trip to Erie last summer that I was on.. very very few fish were caught that day.. was it the captain's fault.. I think NOT.. I know I did not blame him for it.. he put us over fish they were just not biting... I saw the sonar when we stopped at one place but no one caught any of the fish that showed up on it..

Did I feel I had wasted my money.. NOPE... was it the Captain's fault.. NOPE.. just one of those things..

I ENJOYED doing something I had never done before and knew there would be another day... I enjoyed the boat ride, the sunshine, being out on the lake, BSing with other anglers and FISHING for fish ... .. IT WAS A FUN DAY....

Had I got upset and blamed the captain I probably would not have done it again..

if, the captain was (according to you) not as skilled or knowledgabble as you thought, and you blamed him, would you go out with him again ????


By your logic the answer would be NO....

Had I felt that way I would have missed the day I caught a limit in 2 hours...

 
Doc,
 
You are correct in some things here and not so much in others.
 
No, I did not see the need to reduce the number of widgets where I hunt.  Why?  A couple of reasons.  The first is that the herd in that area was already reduced because of the first go around with the bonus tag program.  There are 3-4 camps within 5 miles, each with 10-20 guys in them.  When bonus tags came out, that was their signal to community hunt.  Since the couple of good hunters they had in those camps now had an extra ticket in their licesnse holder, they could feel free to shoot a doe and if need be tag it.  If no one was around, which in this rural of an area there isn't (my father has seen one WCO in the 65 years he hunted there), they simple had one of the other camp guys, you know those fellows that go to camp to BS, play cards, drink, etc., put their tag on it. 
 
This left the good hunters in those camps to keep going.  When it was one tag, they had to stop or risk being caught.  Because of this we saw the average number of deer seen in a day cut by half or more.  It was not uncommon, after bagging and dragging a deer, for me, or my brother, or my father when he was physically able, to take a walk through the woods the rest of the day (that's not hunting, we weren't armed) to keep the deer moving.  These were not yelling, banging sticks, type drives, just slowly walking, almost at a still huntng pace.  It was normal to see 50 -60 deer doing this before the bonus program.  After that program, the number was about 15-20.  And even when there were sightings of 50-60, there was no significant winter kill and no browse lines.  The deer obviously were not at carrying capacity.  So at 15-20 sightings, they were well below carrying capacity.  Then we had HR to knock that number down even further starting in 2000. 
 
There was no deer-human conflict either.  The population in the immediate area is stable and the only new house was built because the old one fell down. 
 
So no, I didn't see a need for reducing widgets.
 
As for those that didn't harvest a widget on a regular basis, when told by the widget agency, who up to this point was very revered by all widget seakers, that this needed done, they went along with it without question.  When it didn't affect them, they still go along with it.
 
Saying that they agree with it is a non-arguement.  If they don't have anything to lose and it doesn't affect them and it is told to them by an offical agency, then they should go along with it without questioning.  Here is an example.  Let's say that some offical agency, like the IRS, says the federal government needs more revenue to give to universities to study the mating habits of ground moles because ground moles have a profound effect on air and water quality (whether that is true or not doesn't matter, they said so so it has to be true, like the deer being the only ruination of forests).
 
So to raise these revenues, the offical type agency decides that taxes need to be raised.  So they decide to raise the taxes from 10% to 90%.  But the difference is they only raise those taxes on older gentlemen that work in general stores around Clarion County (or whereever YOU live and work).  Do you think that that group, that had their taxes raised will be upset by it?  Of course.  Do you think that the ghetto dwellers in Philly will be up set about it when they read about it in the Inquirer?  No.  It doesn't affect them.  An offical agency says it needs done, so obviously it needs done.  They don't care about YOU.
 
Its the same here.  In certain areas, there was zero need for AR/HR, but it was conducted statewide in varying degrees.  It drastically affected those that did well and had no affect on those that didn't.  There is no reason for those that never did well to care.  It didn't cut into their card playing, BSing, or drinking.  If anything, it promoted it further because why should they bother staying in the woods as long as they did in the past when the chances seemed (they don't know why because they don't care) less.  They could get back to why they came to camp in the first place.
 
My brother-in-law is just like that.  He hasn't shot a deer in decades.  He hasn't fired his rifle in years, even at the range.  He even told me once that he got to camp and found out he forgot his ammo, but when offered some by others in the camp, he declined because he had no intention of shooting a deer.  He leaves right after Thanksgiving dinner for camp like it was a religious pilgrimage though.  He doesn't care if all the deer were killed.  He was going to camp. 
 
Now the 20% of the guys in his camp that actually went there to hunt deer, they aren't so chipping on the whole AR/HR deal.  Its not that my B-I-L is "in agreement that the reduction had to happen" and the other guys just don't get it, it because it didn't affect him, so why not agree with it.
 
As for those guys that don't get a deer very often now thinking that if they do get one, it will be a bigger one, well, I hope those guys aren't married or dating.  They should have waited around for a super model because they are out there you know.
 
I am also having a hard time seeing that my success is so far away from normal.  In the guys I hunt with, fish with, and BS about hunting and fishing with, we are all successful at it.  During the period that is often referenced in my posts -- 1972 - 2000, I can only recall a handful of years when my primary hunting party of my Dad, my older brother, and I didn't all harvest a buck and when permitted a doe as well.  The few years that didn't happen, there was usually a good reason -- we couldn't get to our hunting spot before noon because of closed roads; my brother, who lived out of state for a number of years, could only make it back for one day of hunting; we had guests with us and always gave up the best spots so they could fill their tags first; and the like.
 
Back in my bass fishing days, every time we hitched the bass boat to the truck to head to a tournament, we expected to win.  And geuss what, we did it for 20 years and made money at the deal 18 of thse years.   The 19th year we broke even and the 20th we lost a few bucks.  Why?  Because we lost interest, not because our expectations changed.
 
The same was true of this year's One Fly.  I only fish for steelhead once or twice per year and I rarelt fish anything but dry flies for trout.  This obviously is not a recipe fro success at this event.  But my partner is not only a very accomplished steelheader, he is as good of a nymph fisherman as I have ever had the priviledge of seeing in action, let alone getting instruction from.  On the way up, as we discussed how our first foray into this type of competiton would go, I asked him how he thought we would do.  Despite my lack of steelhead prowess, my affinity for NOT fishing subsurface, and the fact that I had a combination of bronchitis and walking pnuemonia, he said he expected us to win.  I might have though less of him if he didn't.  Did we win?  No.  We finished 2nd as a team, I finished 2nd as an individual, he finshed 3rd as an individual, he had the largest steelhead, and I had the second largest steelhead.  I guess you could say that we didn't meet his expectations of winning.  I would say that it was his (and mine too) expectations of wining that drove us to do as well as we did.
 
My friends also were as successful with regard to deer hunting.  It was rare that they didn't harvest at least one deer.  In fact it was so rare that if they didn't get one, they basically got "rode" about it for the rest of the year until the next season.  So I guess it comes down to the company that you keep.  If the folks around you are successful and you are successful, then you expect success as a norm.
 
Its kind of like hunting with my bird dogs.  I don't think anything of it.  I am accustomed to their level of performance.  In fact, I get a little miffed at times when they don't perform to the level that I think they should.  I compare my 3-year-old to my 8-year-old and that is not fair.  Yet, my 3-year-old is the reigning State Champion.  But he isn't as good as the older dog and he can be.  So I am judging him on a different standard than those that rarely hunt over dogs at all.  To them, the younger one is all that and a bag of chips.   To me, he has a ways to go yet.
 
Same thing with deer hunting.  If you and those around you are successful, then success becomes the standard.  If you and those around you are not successful, then success has a different level.
 
And really, just as you need to learn the difference between "hope" and "expect," you might want to look at the difference between "blame" and "accountability."    Blame is what is assigned when someone perceives that someone or something fails them.  It is basically a petty emotion.  Accountability is being held to a standard of performance that is on par with what is expected.
 
In your perch example.  There is no need to "blame" the Capatain for anything.  He was accountable for getting you on the water and over perch.  He did that.  The reason you didn't catch that many perch could be many fold -- weather affected the bite, your lack of skill, and so-forth-and-so-on.  He performed his job to a standard that was acceptable. 
 
Now, if the Captain took you out and you had a poor catching day and the following were the case -- you are an expert perch angler, the weather is right to catch perch, the perch are biting as evidenced by many others in other boats hauling them in one after another in the "perch pack," your Captain shows you the perch on the depth finder, but as soon as one or two guys on the boat catch one, he pulls up anchor and says you are moving away from the perch because he doesn't like to see so many caught and the two guys that caught one are satisfied -- then he isn't accountable for not doing what he is supposed to do.
 
Now there may be guys on the boat that are happy with that because they didn't want their BS session bothered by any fish or are just happy to be out on the water, but those that booked the trip with the expectation that the Captain would be accountable for what he was supposed to do and had their minds set on a fish fry, will not be happy about the move and will more than likely blame the Captain for his lack of accountability.  You would term those people whiners and complainers.  I would term tham a customers that did not recieve what was advertised.
 
As for the trip with Ironhed, if he is worth his salt, and I am sure that he is, he expects us to catch walleye on that trip as well.  If he didn't he would be an unscrupulous, unethical, taker-of-clients-money, who would soon run out of clients.  That is obvisouly not the case.  While there are Captains and guides out there and everywhere (I could tell you some stories), but they don't last long.  To go with him and say we "hope" to catch fish would indeed be an insult.  It would say that we don't have faith in his accountability.  I know I have faith in him.  So I have expectations.
 
As for bananas on the boat, look it up.  He's not alone.

you hit the nail directly on the head when you said it is all about who one "hangs" with...

that guy who gets the hole in one on all his par 3s or almost everyone... after a trip or two I would not enjoy playing golf with him...

The guy who gets a buck every year or bowls 300s 90% of the time... and says it's all about HIS skill, knowledge, etc,.. same thing after one or two times of he's better than me and I am not skilled, have little knowledge etc.. he's history too.


and after reading your last post you have once again proved TO ME that you are far far far from the average Pa deer hunter IMHO.... and as a result probably have little idea how the average joe feels....

I'm sure guys that bust their butt trying and not succeeding would have a difficult time association with someone who is all about "winning" .. at least I know I am that way, so maybe I'll just speak for myself...


there is truth in the "birds of a feather "

as for the illegal use of tags ... sure guys were doing that but it was not a matter of how many tags they had, it was what were the odds of getting caught... I know guys that do it today and RSB busts guys every year for it... you even posted that it was rare to see a WCO there... so if it was one tag or 3 tags I doubt it matter to those crooks.... they were there to kill deer PERIOD....

I guess I live my life trying to be happy... happy is my #1 .... I don't want all that pressure of being the best ... or being #1... I'm just the average guy on the street, C student, average income, etc... "success" does not play that great of a part in my life .. under achiever I guess... I just do not put alot of pressure on myself that I have to be #1, or a total success at everything I do... I do not take life, fishing, hunting, golf, bowling or anything else that serious that I have to be totally successful at it.. I want to do my best and #1 ==== I want to enjoy it.... I'm totally happy at being number 3 or 6 or even 24 if I enjoyed the expierience ---- being #1 has no special anything in my book... I could care less about being #1......

example.. yours.. the one fly...

I would not go there expecting to win or even caring if I won ...... I would go to have fun....
and meet some new guys, and maybe catch a fish or two... I do not go because I do not fly fish and there are folks there that I do not want to meet simply for their attitudes towards other anglers who do not fly fish.... so I know I woud NOT enjoy the event so I'll not go to one knowing I would not have a good time...