RSB
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 20:43:20
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
Here is how RSB labeled those of us that don't agree with his version of how the harvest that exceeded recruitment affected the herd.
quote]Come on people even the Village Idiot should be able to figure out from this data that harvesting fewer and fewer does didn’t result in having more deer on areas with damaged habitat from already having too many deer. RSB just called Wayne, S-10 , Darby and I are are village idiots. First of all I did not say that harvests that exceed recruitment don’t reduce the deer population. I have REPEATEDLY said that absolutely when harvests or any other mortality affect exceeds recruitment the deer population declines. But, I have also REPEATEDLY pointed out, and provided the supporting evidence that proves, how harvesting fewer deer does not result in having more deer unless the habitat is first there to support more over winter deer. Furthermore, I didn’t call anyone an idiot. If you figure that shoe fits and want to wear it or if you want to pin that label other board members that too is on you, Pal. I happen to think anyone who looks at the data objectively will be able to see how obvious it is that reducing the antlerless harvests time after time failed to provide the results of in the increased deer population many of you keep claiming would and will happen with fewer licenses. It has been tried time and again, because of previous hunter and political demands, yet it is consistently proven that it just doesn’t work out the way they claiming it will. In fact it have been proven to work pretty much the opposite of the way the hunters said it would work. WMU is the perfect example of how harvesting fewer deer on damaged habitat doe not result in having more deer for more than short term periods of ideal conditions. Some people just refuse to accept those facts because it isn’t what they want to believe. It reminds me of a parent that simply will not believe their kid went bad even after all of the evidence proves they did. Some people just can’t accept what they don’t want to believe. That doesn’t change reality though. I just happen to think when we are dealing with something as important as the future for our resources and hunting we need to deal with reality instead of listening to people who refuse to accept reality. I am not going to quit fighting for the reality that will benefit the future of hunting and our resources because they are just too darned important to me. Heck I have been putting my life on the line for over three decades because those things are important to me so anyone who thinks I will not speak up to promote a brighter future for hunting and our resources most certainly isn’t living in reality. R.S. Bodenhorn
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 20:46:38
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ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter
ORIGINAL: retired guy
You guys turn every post on this entire Forum into the exact same fight with the same people saying the same stuff about PA and each other over and over and over and over and over-- Im DONE--Made no difference what post I put this on cause its the same few doing the same thing on them all- Could be talking about frogs in Minnesota and in a day or so same old same old.
BTW where does it say reserved for PA anywhere on the Forum -no wonder nobody else is involved- its disgusting.
Dont see how the heck most of you can possibly enjoy Hunting, or anyone with you for that matter -- Therapy boys -lots of it too.
I would say you have this situation figured out pretty well
I have wondered the same thing, which is how can someone enjoy hunting yet spend the majority of their time arguing continually about it? It seems like some would rather spend time here, on this site, than spend it in the woods.
If I was as negative about hunting, I would find another hobby.
And the recent plummeting of subscriptions to these threads prove how bad it really has gotten. Ironhed
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RSB
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 20:48:42
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ORIGINAL: S-10
It has nothing to do with class or lack of it, it has to do with me pointing out that there is scientific data which the PGC developed over several decades which could help either prove or disprove RSB's claims. Rather than post that data he says it is useless even though it was developed to assess deer mortality and allow the PGC to compare the resulting reproduction year to year.The exact two issues he is talking about. Everything I posted can be found in RSB's claims in this thread or the many others on the same topic. He claims we should listen to the science. The PGC has the science on this subject through the years in question. All RSB has to do is post it and perhaps end the discussion. You and RSB are trying to sidestep the issue. The data is there, it is discussed in the Deer Management Plan, It was used for decades, it is based on science, it can give some credibility to RSB's claims(or disprove them). He has no trouble posting pages of data and giving us HIS INTERPETATION of what it means. I fail to see where me pointing all that out is a lack of class.
I already explained to you that I don’t have the data you are asking for. I might be able to dig up a few odd years here and there from my file, and I might do that when I get time, but I simply never kept much of that data because I didn’t see much value in it. I collected it and sent it on to Harrisburg where they compiled it. I already explained to you that you could contact them and request the winter mortality data. R.S. Bodenhorn
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wayne c
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 20:53:33
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And the recent plummeting of subscriptions to these threads prove how bad it really has gotten. Im a member on several boards, and this time of year, after hunting season... The activity drops off significantly compared to during and just prior to season. Does every year at this time. For many, thoughts turn to other things coming fishin' season etc... If it werent for this kind of management related discussion that isnt season specific, there probably would be next to none.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/02/08 20:54:02
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RSB
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 21:03:25
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I just went through my file to see what I had saved on the winter mortality routes in my district and I will post it since it seems to be so important to you. The data is all from the same three routes that I covered each year. The three routes covered a total of about 4.7 miles of wintering grounds habitat. Year……………….Winter deer mortality 1997…………………..1 1998…………………..No report found in my file 1999…………………..1 2000…………………..1 2001…………………..2 2002…………………..1 2003…………………..3 2004…………………..10 2005…………………..4 That is all I have but, as I have already pointed out several times you can get more complete data by requesting it from Harrisburg. R.S. Bodenhorn
post edited by RSB - 2011/02/08 21:04:15
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 21:07:54
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That is correct.
This a much more severe drop, though.
I've never received as many pm's(about this subject) in all the years I've been here than what I have received this past season. As you've already stated, you don't believe it anyway. lol
Ironhed
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bingsbaits
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 21:12:48
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"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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deerfly 
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 21:27:46
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ORIGINAL: RSB
I just went through my file to see what I had saved on the winter mortality routes in my district and I will post it since it seems to be so important to you.
Â
The data is all from the same three routes that I covered each year. The three routes covered a total of about 4.7 miles of wintering grounds habitat.
Â
Year……………….Winter deer mortality
1997…………………..1
1998…………………..No report found in my file
1999…………………..1
2000…………………..1
2001…………………..2
2002…………………..1
2003…………………..3
2004…………………..10
2005…………………..4
Â
That is all I have but, as I have already pointed out several times you can get more complete data by requesting it from Harrisburg. Â
 R.S. Bodenhorn
In 2004 there were only 11 OWD PSM in 2G , yet RSB found 10 dead deer in just 4.7 miles. The other WCo in Elk found just 2 dead deer so the average mortality was 1.31 DPM. Rsb, just proved that even with very low DD of just 11 OWDPSM there will still be winter mortality during extreme winters when the deer can't access the available browse.
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wayne c
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 21:36:11
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As you've already stated, you don't believe it anyway. lol Oh i believe it. In fact i was being sarcastic. Though im not surprised about requests whining about stopping this discussion topic. This talk is a more than a bit damaging to somes agendas no doubt.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/02/08 21:38:35
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spoonchucker
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 21:45:39
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The conversation has long ago become more about attacking/destoying the credibility of those ( here, and elsewhere ) on "the other side", than actual deer management. It's become pretty obvious to most outside observers.
Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference. Step Up, or Step Aside The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody. GL
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/08 22:33:46
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 00:05:51
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This talk is a more than a bit damaging to somes agendas no doubt. No doubt, I'm sure there is some truth to that. If read a little deeper it's more about "embarrassing other posters" or ahem, "provide the ammunition to an adversary to blow them to bits". IMO, I think that's pitiful. Ironhed
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 00:07:31
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 00:11:53
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RSB says they are useless and won't bother to post them even though they could confirm everything he has been claiming and embarrass some posters on here who are calling him untruthful. It has nothing to do with class or lack of it... Yes it does. (see bold) Ironhed
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bingsbaits
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fishin coyote
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 07:44:02
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HAPPY THOUGHTS FELLAS, HAPPY THOUGHTS Mike
Nothing is Free!! Reward equals Effort
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S-10
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 07:46:08
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And the recent plummeting of subscriptions to these threads prove how bad it really has gotten. And yet, here we all are once again. I don't know what you mean by "plummenting of subscriptions" but this thread and like threads on deer hunting still get more hits per day than nearly all of the others on this site including the ones related to fishing. The DEER WARS have not let up on any open forums since 2000 and there is no reason to expect it to happen on any open forums in the near future. The only thing that has happened is the so called small vocial minority has gotten much larger and some folks don't like it. Anyone who views these threads has the opportunity to learn about the states wildlife and the agencies that are responsible for them and make their own decisions.The choice to participate in the debate or not is the viewers. For those who want to grab azz there is the Oxy Bob or Christmas thread to visit.
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DarDys
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 07:53:41
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Okay, okay, which am I: A) Bully B) Goon C) Village Idiot D) All of the above E) None of the above I am getting lost following this, so help me out, please! 
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 07:56:42
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ORIGINAL: spoonchucker
The conversation has long ago become more about attacking/destoying the credibility of those ( here, and elsewhere ) on "the other side", than actual deer management. It's become pretty obvious to most outside observers.
And pretty obvious to many that used to post frequently in these deer debate threads. Mostly personal vendettas that are not what this board should be about.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 08:02:48
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ORIGINAL: S-10
The DEER WARS have not let up on any open forums since 2000 and there is no reason to expect it to happen on any open forums in the near future. On the contrary. There are those that would like to continue the deer wars. There are many that like to discuss deer management in productive ways. Thankfully, the sites that encourage productive discussion are overshadowing those that prefer battle.
My rifle is a black rifle
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S-10
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 08:14:18
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When a person gets called a goon, idiot, someone without half a functioning brain cell, bully, village idiot, etc for presenting the other side of a debate it's rather difficult to respond in a pleasant way. All of those names and more came from one side of the deer debate and all are supposed to be against the rules on this board.
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deerfly
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 08:18:48
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First of all I did not say that harvests that exceed recruitment don’t reduce the deer population. I have REPEATEDLY said that absolutely when harvests or any other mortality affect exceeds recruitment the deer population declines. But, I have also REPEATEDLY pointed out, and provided the supporting evidence that proves, how harvesting fewer deer does not result in having more deer unless the habitat is first there to support more over winter deer. You have never provided any evidence that harvesting fewer deer does not result in having more deer, since you have repeatedly failed to show how hunting and non-hunting mortality effected the OWDD. That is the information I provided and which you dismiss out of hand because it proves your theory is flat out wrong. From 2001 to 2006 the herd in 2G was reduced from 15DPSM to 9 OWD PSM and recruitment reduced proportionately as would be expected even though there was a lot more food/deer available in 2006 than there was in 2001. Furthermore, I didn’t call anyone an idiot. If you figure that shoe fits and want to wear it or if you want to pin that label other board members that too is on you, Pal. You referred who don't agree with your theory as village idiots and that would include the member of this MB who disagree with you, as well as Dr. Rosenberry, Brett Wallingford and Cal Dubrock, since they all understand that harvests that exceed recruitment results in fewer fawns recruited the following year. Afterall, that is why the issued over 1M doe tags that produced an antlerless harvest of over 352K and the recruitment of a lot fewer fawns the following year.
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dpms
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 08:20:14
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ORIGINAL: S-10
When a person gets called a goon, idiot, someone without half a functioning brain cell, bully, village idiot, etc for presenting the other side of a debate it's rather difficult to respond in a pleasant way. All of those names and more came from one side of the deer debate and all are supposed to be against the rules on this board.
Very true. Do you recognize the faults of the other side as well and the difficulty of responding in pleasant ways? Many of the debates border on stalking of certain members and topics.
post edited by dpms - 2011/02/09 08:28:29
My rifle is a black rifle
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S-10
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 08:54:17
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What you may call stalking others might see as viewing various topics as a guest and not bothering to log on unless you read something that you want to respond to. I do that all the time, in part because half the time I do log on I forget to log off when I'am done ( part of that senior thing you are not part of yet). If your definition of stalking is jumping in on a topic where someone posts something you don't agree with or you have data to show is wrong then we all are guilty of that. That's why they are called debates. If someone continually makes bogus postings then they probably will get piled on by the other viwers as well they should. That's what keeps a thread honest. That's all for me on this subject, after all we just hijacked a deer thread
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dpms
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 09:43:46
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ORIGINAL: S-10
If your definition of stalking is jumping in on a topic where someone posts something you don't agree with or you have data to show is wrong then we all are guilty of that. Not at all. Back to the deer wars......
My rifle is a black rifle
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 10:00:53
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Will not use the smilies any more to try and interject a little humor into this stupid debate and you dam well better make sure the other side doesn't try to use them either to insult. We could all fill up 3 pages of smileys after a post knowing they are a "cover your butt"-type thing, especially when the majority of one's posts are only made after one particular member makes a post. Ironhed
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 10:08:33
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ORIGINAL: dpms
ORIGINAL: S-10
If your definition of stalking is jumping in on a topic where someone posts something you don't agree with or you have data to show is wrong then we all are guilty of that.
Not at all. Back to the deer wars......
+1 Not my definition either, S-10. Ironhed
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S-10
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 10:23:24
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Then perhaps you should define just what response is acceptable in your mind when you are crusing the topics and find something you want to comment on. Should we ask the moderator for permission to take exception to something we know is wrong and have the data to prove that it is wrong or should we just ignore it and let those who aren't familiar with the topic assume the claim being made is correct. Define the difference between jumping in and rebuttal and explain how you are determining the difference.
post edited by S-10 - 2011/02/09 11:05:53
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S-10
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 10:36:03
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Back on topic, here is what Chris Rosenberry had to say in a article in the Lancaster new-era Feb 7, 2011 edition.
The topic was on the effect last years winter had on the recent harvest but he commented on the toll the winters we have been discussing.------------------------------Even in the unusually deep snow winters of 2002-2003 and 2003-2004, survival rates of the radio collared deer were 95% and 98% respectively. We do lose animals in the winter but were not losing a lot.-------------- As I mentioned earlier, the 2004 winter broke early with rain and temperatures reaching near 70 in Elk county the first week in March. The whole spring was rainy which was hard on the turkey poults but not the deer.
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Ironhed
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RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report ===
2011/02/09 11:03:03
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Then perhaps you should define just what response is acceptable in your mind when you are crusing the topics and find something you want to comment on. Should we ask the moderator for permission to take exception to something we know is wrong and have the data to prove that it is or should we just ignore it and those who aren't familiar with the topic assume it is correct. Define the difference between jumping in and rebuttal and explain how you are determing the difference.
You don't have to be a moderator(I am a member too), village idiot, goon, etc. to know what I'm talking about. We talked about this very subject through PM's. I'm not gonna re-hash it. If history proves that a member is "stalking" another member, you will be asked to leave. Period. Ironhed
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