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Dr. Trout
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2011/01/28 23:59:27 (permalink)

2011 QDMA whitetail report ===

here's the new report..
http://www.qdma.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Whitetail_Report_2011.pdf

check out starting on page 12 and see how Pa has increased the record book entries compared to other states...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/01/29 10:00:58
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 09:26:25 (permalink)
    Those reports do make for interesting reading and show trends but you have to be careful about how you interpet the findings. I can't find your entries on page 12 so assume you meant page 15. The Pa. comparisons of 1999 and 2009 are a prime example of accurate but unintentially misleading numbers. When you compare 0.02 and 0.13, a couple deer one way or another statewide can change the whole picture. Also, if they would have used 2000 rather than 1999 for the comparison in Pennsylvania on either the gun or archery records the result would have been the exact opposite of what is shown. The chart showing the states ranked by the 10 year averages is the better indicator of where we stand which is not much different than it has always been.
    post edited by S-10 - 2011/01/29 15:34:18
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    deerfly
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 10:02:10 (permalink)
    The report shows a 500% increase in B7C bucks from 1999 to 2009,while the PGC says that ARs only increased the harvest of 8+ pt. buck by 17% from 2001 to 2009. That simply doesn't make any sense at all.
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    Dr. Trout
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 10:06:35 (permalink)



    The chart showing the 10 year averages does show Pa as now being number 9...

    In 1999 we were 17th !!!!

    and in 2001 we still were not in the top 10 ......


    whens the next new record book come out ?????
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/01/29 10:15:08
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 10:18:20 (permalink)
    I have to go But don't look at the percentages, 500% of next to nothing is still next to nothing. In 2000 we had over twice as many bucks entered in the record books as 1999 and many more than 2009. You just have to be careful in how you interpet the numbers is all I am saying.
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 10:24:01 (permalink)
    Mabee more folks are just trying to get there deer in the book than they did in the past.
    Probably a bunch of those "Antler Fanatics" you have so much disdain for...

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


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    DarDys
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 10:36:02 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout




    The chart showing the 10 year averages does show Pa as now being number 9...

    In 1999 we were 17th !!!!

    and in 2001 we still were not in the top 10 ......


    whens the next new record book come out ?????


    Wow!  that's great.

    How did the 50,000 to 70,000 hunters that used to harvest a buck but don't any longer like that?

    Unless they actually put one of the deer in the record books, do you think they give two hoots?

    One hoot maybe?
    post edited by DarDys - 2011/01/29 12:13:11

    The poster formally known as Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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    wayne c
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 11:27:55 (permalink)
    I found this part interesting;

    Example 1: From Unhealthy to Healthy
    We are fortunate to visit many properties during the year. One such property is a 500-acre piece in
    north-central Pennsylvania that historically contained a combination of oak-hickory-maple woods
    and agricultural crops (hay, corn and oats) for a working dairy farm. In the 1970s and 1980s the
    property was home to well over 100 deer per square mile. No official density survey was conducted
    in those days but hunters routinely saw over 100 deer each day (per hunter) during the hunting
    season and several hundred deer each night while spotlighting during summer and fall. Needless to
    say, no oak seedlings were surviving in the forests
    Fast forward to 2002. The owners implemented a forest management program and made a concerted
    effort to balance the deer herd with the habitat. In 2004 at the height of their herd reduction
    effort, they shot 30 adult does on 500 acres. Most of these deer were shot during two days, and the
    significant hunting pressure applied in such a short time made it impossible to reach their harvest
    goal of 35 adult does.
    Several years of intense but calculated antlerless harvests and two significant timber harvests later
    and the deer herd and property look much different. A hunter won’t see 100 deer per day anymore
    but will average close to two deer per hour, and some will see 30 or more deer on good days.
    The
    property now produces a variety of forbs in the woods each spring, including Canada mayflower,
    trillium and other important deer foods, and the timbered areas are thick with regenerating ash,
    maples and oaks. The managing forester even commented this property was the poster child for
    oak regeneration in Pennsylvania. Amazingly, this oak regeneration is occurring with a deer density
    likely exceeding 50 deer per square mile. Five years of pre-season trail-camera surveys and four
    years of post-season pellet count surveys substantiate this claim
    .
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 15:28:52 (permalink)
    The chart showing the 10 year averages does show Pa as now being number 9...

    In 1999 we were 17th !!!!

    and in 2001 we still were not in the top 10 ......


    1.You might want to take another look at that chart Doc.
    2. Can you post the charts from 1999 and 2000 you are refering too so we can compare them to the latest one.
    #9
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 15:55:28 (permalink)




    Top 10 States to Hunt Whitetail Deer as scored by B&C:


    1. Iowa: 615
    2. Minnesota: 608
    3. Wisconsin: 589
    4. Illinois: 552
    5. Texas: 316
    6. Missouri: 285
    7. Kentucky: 279
    8. Kansas: 255
    9. Ohio: 235
    10. Michigan: 155


    Top 10 States to Hunt Whitetail Deer as scored by Pope & Young:


    1. Illinois
    2. Iowa
    3. Kansas
    4. Wisconsin
    5. Ohio
    6. Indiana
    7. Minnesota
    8. Missouri
    9. Nebraska
    10. Kentucky
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/01/29 15:57:43
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 16:05:36 (permalink)
    The report shows a 500% increase in B7C bucks from 1999 to 2009,while the PGC says that ARs only increased the harvest of 8+ pt. buck by 17% from 2001 to 2009. That simply doesn't make any sense at all.


    That's what I meant by not taking those percentages seriously. As I read the two charts, the first one ranking the states is the average of the years from 1999 through 2009 which includes both Pre and post AR years. It is shown as bucks per 1000 sq mi of land mass.
    The other charts compare 1999 to 2009 and are record bucks per 1000 sq mi of land mass.
    Pa. has 46,000sq mi of land mass so if you do the calculation there was ONE record book buck taken in 1999 and SIX taken in 2009 statewide. At least those were the numbers they used. 2000 is still the best year in our history for bucks making the PGC records.
    #11
    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 16:15:17 (permalink)
    Doc--those are charts of some kind but they don't show the year, don't show where they came from, and are not broken down the same as those from the QDMA so they are useless for this discussion. I have some from last year showing something much different.
    #12
    Dr. Trout
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 16:30:16 (permalink)
    2000 is still the best year in our history for bucks making the PGC records.


    I'm not disputing that fact..

    what I find most interesting is the 2009 figures


    Years after HR/AR we managed to get 5 trophies in the book ..  a 500% increase over 1999 number of entries (before HR/AR) and as you guys love to point out .....   the 2009 antler harvest was maybe the worst ever...
     
    2000 was the best ever .. wonder what that percentage would be compared to 1999 ???
     
     
    I have no idea how the QDMA did the charts and can find none that are like it...
     
    as for the top ten.. I used pope and young and B&C searches... searching top ten states in each book..
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/01/29 16:34:35
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 16:54:25 (permalink)
    Where is the chart showing Pa's ranking in 1999 and 2000 you talked about. I can probably convert the numbers to equal the QDMA calculation.
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 17:07:15 (permalink)
    According to the PGC records there were 7 bucks that exceeded the minimums for the QDMA comparison in 2000 and only 2 in 2009.
    post edited by S-10 - 2011/01/29 17:11:14
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 17:14:27 (permalink)
    I know of 1 from 2008 that will never be in the book.
    Score 205 5/8 non-typical 25 point, second in the state for archery.
    Probably hanging in the barn....

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


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    Dr. Trout
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 17:14:39 (permalink)
    No charts...
     
    this is for the two lists I posted above
     
    This helpful list is from a July 2006 Realtree article at the web link below:


     
    for 1999 I used the QDMA chart and counted states with a better average
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 17:33:51 (permalink)
    So really what your telling me is you have nothing to compare to that supports your contention that we were 17th in 1999 and not even in the top ten in 2000.(the latter is possible). By the way, your reading the QDMA chart as Pa being #9 needs corrected also. The left side refers to P&Y only. The chart on the tight shows us still not in the top ten in B&C.
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    Dr. Trout
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 17:42:24 (permalink)
    S-10 ..
     
    It is just AMAZING how you read things into my posts that are not there.....
     
    [quopte]By the way, your reading the QDMA chart as Pa being #9 needs corrected also.
     
    PLEASE show me where I posted anything about what book  we were #9 in  ??
     
    as I count down the list we are the ninth entry, does that not make us #9 ???????? ??????
     
    I just stated that according to the QDMA chart were had moved to #9....
     
     
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/29 17:54:53 (permalink)
    Have a good evening
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    SilverKype
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 08:20:34 (permalink)
    Here is QDMA testimony at the PGC meeting yesterday.

    Rich Watts, PA QDMA


    On behalf of the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA) and the Pennsylvania State Chapter we appreciate the opportunity to provide input on Pennsylvania’s 2011-12 deer season. The QDMA is an international nonprofit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to ensuring the future of white-tailed deer, wildlife habitat, and our hunting heritage. The QDMA has over 50,000 members nationwide including over 3,000 in Pennsylvania. Notably, Pennsylvania’s membership includes numerous wildlife and forestry professionals.

    Pennsylvania’s deer management program has been nationally recognized for many years, both favorably and unfavorably. Historically it was recognized as one of the poorest in the country. More recently it has been recognized as a national leader – deer herds in balance with what the habitat could support, balanced adult sex ratios, complete age structures, healthy deer, improved habitat health, and increased recreational opportunity. These were the results of a science-based deer management program supported by the majority of Pennsylvania sportsmen and women.

    Unfortunately, unscientific management is becoming the norm today. This is irresponsible on the Agency’s part, unfair to Pennsylvania citizens, and unfortunate for Pennsylvania sportsmen and women. We recognize there is a vocal minority unhappy with current conditions in the Commonwealth. However, a quick comparison to other states clearly shows how successful Pennsylvania’s deer management program is, and how fortunate our hunters are.

    For example:
    ï‚· PA is one of only six states in the U.S. to harvest more than 300,000 whitetails annually;
     In 2009 PA harvested 2.4 antlered bucks per square mile (PSM)– this is higher than the averages for the Northeastern (2.0) and Midwestern (1.5 bucks PSM) states;
     In 2009 for the first time in several decades (or maybe ever) over half of PA’s antlered buck harvest was 2.5 years or older;
     In 2009 PA harvested 4.4 antlerless deer PSM – this is higher than the averages for the Northeastern (3.2), Midwestern (2.1) and Southeastern (3.6 antlerless deer PSM) states. If PA has no deer how can our hunters continue to annually harvest more on a PSM basis than most other states in the U.S.?;
     In 2009 PA harvested 1.9 antlerless deer per antlered buck – this is higher than the averages for the Northeastern (1.4), Midwestern (1.4) and Southeastern (1.1 antlerless deer per antlered buck) states.

    The above data are included on pages 5, 7, 9 and 27 of QDMA’s 2011 Whitetail Report available at http://www.QDMA.com, and they clearly show how well Pennsylvania compares to
    other states. These are reasons to celebrate our deer management program, not change it or replace its managers. They also highlight the successes of our program; successes that clearly would not be attainable if the herd was mismanaged as some contend.

    One final measure is according to Pope and Young record book data from 1999 to 2009, only eight states harvested and recorded more record-book bucks on a PSM basis than Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania finished above popular trophy destinations like Kansas and Kentucky! Not that record-book entries are a goal of Pennsylvania’s program, but they clearly show the success of our program and the opportunities available for our sportsmen and women.

    Regarding the proposal to amend the antler point requirement in WMUs 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B and 2D, we support this change as long as the new requirement still protects the majority of yearling bucks, Game Commission staff evaluate the impacts of the amendment, and the majority of hunters and landowners in the affected WMUs support it.

    We acknowledge there are some areas in the Commonwealth with very low deer densities, and we sympathize with hunters in these areas. However, we contend the reason for these densities is habitat related in most instances. The proper way to address these situations is through improved habitat management, not reorganization of the deer management program.

    Our final comments relate to DMAP and youth hunter recruitment and retention. We support all public and private landowners having the opportunity to take full advantage of the DMAP program, and keeping DMAP coupons separate from the general antlerless license allocation.

    This is one of the most useful programs ever afforded to landowners. Thank you for writing a resolution in support of the transfer tag legislation for mentored hunters. Our mentored youth hunting program is an overwhelming success, and the opportunity to harvest antlerless deer in this program will further increase its value. Alternatively, the quickest way to extinguish excitement for young hunters is to restrict their hunting and harvest opportunities. Given the absence of Sunday hunting and the demands of school and extracurricular activities, many youth are only able to hunt the opening day of firearms season. What a shame that youth in 8 of our 22 WMUs (over a third of our state) are not allowed to shoot an antlerless deer. Non-concurrent seasons are extremely counterproductive to youth recruitment and retention.

    We strongly urge you to return to managing our wildlife resources with science-based programs. The majority of Pennsylvania hunters are currently reaping the benefits of a highly successful deer management program. However, non-concurrent seasons, unscientific antlerless allocations, and reduced opportunity all threaten these successes. Major changes to this program will negatively impact

    Pennsylvania’s whitetail herds, other wildlife species, habitat, and current and future hunters. Thank you for your time, and we’ll close by offering our assistance in any way that we can help the Board or Agency regarding deer management.

    Respectfully,
    Rick Watts Pennsylvania State Chapter President
    Kip Adams Director of Education & Outreach

    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
    #21
    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 08:55:09 (permalink)
    Quote:One final measure is according to Pope and Young record book data from 1999 to 2009, only eight states harvested and recorded more record-book bucks on a PSM basis than Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania finished above popular trophy destinations like Kansas and Kentucky

    This is a prime example of why you have to be really careful about taking things at face value. The above statement given in testimony was meant to support Pennsylvania AR/HR but while factually accurate is misleading as hell. They used 1999,2000,2001,2002 which were years that had nothing to do with AR/HR to support AR/HR. The year 2000 had more bucks entered in the books than any other. They also only used P&Y bucks because using B&C or using B&C or P&Y together would have resulted in a totally different result.
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 09:07:49 (permalink)
    In 2009 PA harvested 1.9 antlerless deer per antlered buck – this is higher than the averages for the Northeastern (1.4), Midwestern (1.4) and Southeastern (1.1 antlerless deer per antlered buck) states.


    This is a goofy statement that means nothing except that we are still in a herd reduction mode in spite of claims to the contrary.
    post edited by S-10 - 2011/01/31 09:25:37
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    DarDys
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 09:08:58 (permalink)
    Where was the part of the testimony from QMDA that said -- "If you chuckleheads at the PGC want to absolve yourselves of hearing the bellyaching frm both sides of the deer wars, you could just hire us as non-biased third party consultants and let us take the heat as part of the consultation fee.  Deer consulting that's what we do, that's all we do"

    The poster formally known as Duncsdad

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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 09:39:45 (permalink)
    If PA has no deer how can our hunters continue to annually harvest more on a PSM basis than most other states in the U.S.?;


    Another misleading statement---Who ever said there were NO deer in Pa. Also, we Always annually harvested more deer than most states. He chose to ignore the comparisons we are interested in.

    Pa Buck harvest success rate:

    1999- 22%
    2000- 22%
    2001- 23.6 %

    Now, after over 200,000 of the least successful hunters on average quit which should have INCREASED the success rate.

    Pa Buck harvest success rate:

    2007- 15%
    2008- 12%
    2009- 15%
    post edited by S-10 - 2011/01/31 10:04:59
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    SilverKype
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 12:34:08 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: S-10

    The year 2000 had more bucks entered in the books than any other.



    Are you serious ?!?! No way ! First I heard that one.



    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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    S-10
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 12:40:46 (permalink)
    I always suspected you were a slow learner. Must be that just working around all that knowledge doesn't mean it rubs off.
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    deerfly
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 16:47:33 (permalink)
    Historically it was recognized as one of the poorest in the country. More recently it has been recognized as a national leader – deer herds in balance with what the habitat could support, balanced adult sex ratios, complete age structures, healthy deer, improved habitat health, and increased recreational opportunity. These were the results of a science-based deer management program supported by the majority of Pennsylvania sportsmen and women.


    It is a shame that someone like Watts is either so ignorant of the history of deer management in PA or is intentionally being misleading. PA did a 20 year study on the carrying capacity of forest habitat before implementing the previous deer management plan. They produced a healthy herd with a good B/D ratio and genetics that were good enough to produce the big bucks QDM is bragging about today.
    In 2009 PA harvested 2.4 antlered bucks per square mile (PSM)– this is higher than the averages for the Northeastern (2.0) and Midwestern (1.5 bucks PSM) states;


    Funny how he failed to mention that the previous DMP produced a buck harvest rate around 4.47 buck PSM, which was 47% higher than in 2009.
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    Dr. Trout
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 17:27:33 (permalink)
    Funny how he failed to mention that the previous DMP produced a buck harvest rate around 4.47 buck PSM, which was 47% higher than in 2009.


    #1...That's because we now have ARs protecting bucks which means they can not be killed and thus lowers the number of bucks harvested PSM...

    #2...There are 200K less hunters even trying to harvest a buck, surely that would reduce the harvest rate also

    #3...We had several years of herd reduction to lower the number of deer period... less deer means less deer.. bucks and does... less bucks available mean lower harvest figures


    But ========= I thought we all knew those things ????????????????

    PLUS what difference does it make ===== even with less bucks available, protected bucks , and less hunters he points out we are still doing better than many other states .. [8| !!!!
    post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/01/31 17:31:00
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    deerfly
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    RE: 2011 QDMA whitetail report === 2011/01/31 17:49:29 (permalink)
    #1...That's because we now have ARs protecting bucks which means they can not be killed and thus lowers the number of bucks harvested PSM...


    ARs only reduces the buck harvest by the number of buck that are carried over that die from non-hunting mortality. Eventually the vast majority of 1.5 buck become AR legal if they live long enough

    #2...There are 200K less hunters even trying to harvest a buck, surely that would reduce the harvest rate also[



    That is not necessarily true. According the PGC we still have enough hunters to keep the herd stable so we obviously have enough hunters to harvest the relatively few legal buck that we have today. Note that the same number of hunters that harvested 10*K buck in 2009.managed to harvest 200K antlerless,because those antlerless deer were available to be harvested.
    3...We had several years of herd reduction to lower the number of deer period... less deer means less deer.. bucks and does... less bucks available mean lower harvest figures


    No kidding!! But QDMA supports HR in PA while doing everything possible to increase the number of deer on their leases. As I recall Alshiemer managed his herd at around 60 DPSM and Wayne C just posted a case in PA where they were managing their QDMA herd at 50 DPSM. Many QDMA, but not all, are very hypocritical and want others to do what they say, not what they do.
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