Hunting with the Pointers 2010 Photos

I'll caption some photos if there is something unique about them.  If not, I'll just add the photos without comment.
 
Game Land hunt.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
Winter Preserve Chukar hunt.
 
Long distance honor.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
Honoring a point while making a retreive.
 

 
 

 
 
Game land hunt.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
Good Friday Preserve Chukar hunt (its nice to hunt in April -- LOL)  As well trained as the dogs are, they can never sit for a proper hero shot photo.  One always has to be goofing off.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
Going on point in the middle of a retrieve.
 

 
 

 
 
Preserve chukars aren't that dumb either.  Notice that it is keeping the tree between the hunter and itself.
 

 
 
 
Game land hunt.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
Winter Preserve Chukar hunt.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
A few pheasant photos.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
 

Dardys,
Fantastic pics!  Thanks for sharing.

I have a question...
How/why do dogs know the difference between a live/dead bird from long distances?  Or even 10 feet for that matter?
The good dogs I have hunted over in the past would never point a dead bird.  How do they know?
I always wondered.

Ironhed

DarDys, some excellent pics, and awesome dogs!
Love watching them work! Thanks for sharing

Thanks for sharing, great photos.

Great shots.. gotta love those dogs !!!!
 

Thanks for sharing you little slice of heaven. As far as cost: PRICELESS

DarDys,
Grew up hunting with beagles.My father raised Lazy hollow beagles for 50 years.I raised brittanys for awhile.Nothing like hunting over a dog.Thank you for the memories.Ray

Sorry it took me so long to get back to answer some questions, but here we go.
 
Ironhed -- how does the dog know if the bird is live or dead from a distance?
 
I have a theory on that.  Flushing dogs key in on foot scent, but pointing dogs use a combination of body scent and breath scent.  Since the bird is dead, it has a lingering body scent, but no breath scent.  The dog identifies the bird (each bird smells somewhat simalr, but is also unique as well) by its body scent, so it knows the bird, but with no breath scent, it is deemed dead.
 
On the flip side are birds that are wounded, but not dead.  These birds have much of their body scent either air washed off from flight or actually "blasted" off from being shot, but are still breathing.  The dog identifies the bird from its breath, but with no body scent, it somehow knows that it is wounded and will pick it up -- whereas if it had both body and breath scent, it wouldn't touch it.
 
Of interesting note -- notice when birds are stocked by the PGC, the flushing dog guys do well right away and the pointing dog guys don't really start to locate birds for 45 minutes to an hour.  The birds have their body scent basically air washed off while riding in the crates in the truck, so there isn't much for the pointing dogs to go one until the birds have been out for a while.  this is why I alwasy give missed birds 30 minutes be fore starting to look for them -- they need to regain the body scent.  Because flushing dogs key on foot scent, they find freshly stocked birds right way, but as the birds settle into hiding spots, that foot scent that leads to there diminishes.
 
 
 
rsquared -- breaking dogs -- trained or disobedience?
 
Pointing dogs can be trained to do three things -- break on the flush; be "steady to wing," but break on the shot; or be "steady to wing and shot" and not break at all unless commanded to do so, if at all.  All are rooted somewhat in history or tradition.
 
Pointing dogs, pointers, setters, etc., were developed on estates in Europe for the purpose of subsistance or market hunting -- not sport hunting.  In fact setters, originally did just that -- they found birds, then sat down, hence the name.  The game keeper would then toss a net over the dog and birds.  Because there was no refridgeration then, the birds could be put into cages and taken to market alive.
 
As ice making became more prevalent, sport sort of entered the picture.  Estate families would invite each other over for social events (many to set up marriages or do business) and hunting was a way to pass the time.  It was also they way to secure the dinner for the feast.  Since one could not tell how disciplined there guests were with a shotgun or how drunk they were for that matter and they did not want their dogs shot, training to be steady to "wing" became the norm.  This ensured that the dog was not in the way of a quick trigger finger.  Also, because the pointing dogs did not retrieve the game, the hired help did, it didn't matter if the dog marked where birds went down or not.
 
The tradition changed a little when pointing dogs came to the US, particularly in the southern plantations.  Hunters rode on wagons until the dogs struck point; disembarked; shot at the covey rise of quail; put the pointers back on the wagon; and released the labs or spaniels to do the retreiving work.  They literally stuck to the names -- pointers pointed birds, retreivers retreived birds.  As they started to create field trials for pointing dogs, in which birds were not shot (these were held during the off season for something to do), dogs were trained to be "steady to wing and shot" (a blank gun was used) because 1) it looked good, 2) it required a higher degree of training, 3) the birds weren't shot so the dog didn't need to mark them; 4) had it been an actual hunt, labs would have done the retreiving anyway; and 5) this trained pointers to never touch a bird -- live or dead -- which was an immediate disqualification.
 
While all of this worked well, it didn't suit the northern or western US hunter that had a limited number of dogs.  So pointers were b@$tardized into retreiving.  This is not easy.  The dog's inbred inclination is to stay away from birds and they are now being asked to stay away from live ones, but pick up dead ones and chase down wounded ones.  Some just won't do it because of their genetics.  Some are "force fetch" trained to do it in order to over ride their breeding.
 
In any instance, because pointers are not retreivers by nature, they need to see where a bird went down in order to mark it and get close to where it is so that their nose can find it.  That is why a lot of norther and western hunters, particularly those that hunt heavy cover, train their dogs to break toward the direction that the bird flew.  The idea is that the dog will get a direction and distance sight line so they can get close enough to smell the downed bird.
 
In "shoot to retreive" competitions, which are the ones I enter, there is no subjectivity concerning anything such as the tail is straight enough or they rub the fur off the bottom of their chest, etc.  It is simply the dog finding the bird; holding point until the hunter flushes it; the bird being bagged with as few shots as possible; the bird being retreived to within one step of the hunter; and the shortest amount of time to accomplish it all.  This more closely, in my opinion, simulates hunting condtions, especailly in PA.
 
Since a retreive counts for points; the bird must be in hand to be counted as bagged; and time is a factor, I prefer that the dog break on wing so that it can mark the bird ensuring that it finds it for the retreive and it takes the least amount of time.  I have seen competitions lost because of the extra time it took a "steady to wing and shot" trained dog to be sent for a retrieve and come back.   So I train mine to break on the flush.

Very interesting DarDys. Really appreciate you taking the time to type all of that out.

So now when my lab breaks on a shot, I can just tell people I actually trained him to do that and he's not being a disobedient knucklehead

You theory makes more sense than any other I've heard.
Great read!  Thanks for taking the time.

Ironhed

ORIGINAL: worm_waster

Way cool.

Do you hunt grouse at all with your dogs?

Are there any field trials in NWPA?  I would like to see one.  Are spectators allowed?

w_w.

 
I do hunt grouse with the occassionally, but prefer not to do so.  There are a lot of ways for a dog to get injured in the grouse habitat we have around here and I don't like to take the chance.
 
I am not sure about field trials or "shoot to Retrieve" (they are quite different competitions) in your area.  Typically spectators are permitted.

In "shoot to retrieve" trials the birds go to the competitors that shot them.  Most of the cost of these trial is in the birds, so they guys want them to eat.