LockedPersonal Responsibility. 
Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 12:17:21
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I would think that if there were some type of organization that worked directly with the landowners to listen to their concerns, help keep an eye on their property, provide them some assurance that their members are good stewards of their and say thank you for letting them fish there, that would go a long way to help... I believe the PSA does some of that.
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Dream Catcher
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 15:08:44
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The solution to this problem would be to outfit steel head with an electronic device . Prior to the fish swimming upon "private" waters the "shock collar" emits an electric pulse through transmission of the signal from a cable installed as a trigger ... Thus keeping said fish on public land . Problem solved it may be cheaper than filling others coffers 
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fisherofmen376
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 15:59:00
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the shock collar thing won't work-the snaggers would rip them off with their trebles and 1/4 oz spoons in the streams.
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." Matthew 4:19
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wrighter00
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 18:43:34
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ORIGINAL: Riverbum
you guys are really reaching...willing to negate personal property rights...regulate businesses to death...force private landowners to reveal their finances...
Here's a thought, your privilege to fish never trumps individual liberty.
Know your surroundings and fish the several miles of public waters.
Here's a thought. Your privilige to buy American soil doesn't trump individual liberty. "this land is your land... this land is my land". Now, we can't have people settling on or trashing other peoples land, no. What we can do is work together to solve these issues. Bug isn't saying that we should go to these landowners houses with pitchforks and torches to lynch them. He's saying that if everyone publicly worked together then we'd end up in a better place. A mindset that's often lost to people nowadays. Unfortunately, we aren't gonna get rid of the scum unless we are willing to dunk everyone we see tresspassing, littering, snagging, keeping more than the limit, etc. We may be able to all work together to minimize it though. People adopt highways for litter control. Why not creeks? I agree that a public club is a good option, or even more private clubs that were less privately and more publicly involved. I don't disagree with having your own private venture to make some loot or even to have your own piece of fishing heaven, but stock your own fish to do it. Keep up the good work, Bug. Open mindedness for the sake of considering the unconsidered is a great way to think.
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outfortrout
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 19:47:34
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Why are landowners allowed to own the stream and the access to it to begin with? Is it like this in other states? It seems a shame that we have these wonderful resources and can't use them.
A prime example is the Clarion River from Johnsonburg down to Ridgway. It's supposed to be trophy trout catch and release water. Don't ask me where to fish it though because almost the whole **** thing is posted no trespassing.
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heyiknowyou
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 20:59:27
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 go read the regulations, they explain it.
post edited by heyiknowyou - 2010/12/12 21:00:26
go back to spain 11-12-11: the last time i got punched in the face
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 21:33:29
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ORIGINAL: wrighter00
ORIGINAL: Riverbum
you guys are really reaching...willing to negate personal property rights...regulate businesses to death...force private landowners to reveal their finances...
Here's a thought, your privilege to fish never trumps individual liberty.
Know your surroundings and fish the several miles of public waters.
Here's a thought. Your privilige to buy American soil doesn't trump individual liberty. "this land is your land... this land is my land". Now, we can't have people settling on or trashing other peoples land, no. What we can do is work together to solve these issues. Bug isn't saying that we should go to these landowners houses with pitchforks and torches to lynch them. He's saying that if everyone publicly worked together then we'd end up in a better place. A mindset that's often lost to people nowadays. Unfortunately, we aren't gonna get rid of the scum unless we are willing to dunk everyone we see tresspassing, littering, snagging, keeping more than the limit, etc. We may be able to all work together to minimize it though. People adopt highways for litter control. Why not creeks? I agree that a public club is a good option, or even more private clubs that were less privately and more publicly involved. I don't disagree with having your own private venture to make some loot or even to have your own piece of fishing heaven, but stock your own fish to do it.
Keep up the good work, Bug. Open mindedness for the sake of considering the unconsidered is a great way to think.
your logic is upside down. the ownership of private property is fundamental to individual liberty. Your rights as an individual end the moment they begin to infringe upon the next individual's rights, and that includes access to a resource. Your land is certainly NOT mine because I am not free to do what I please upon it. If you want a communal society, I suggest you move elsewhere. a public club would fail because it would have neither the law or membership restricton to see its goals fulfilled. It would be nothing more than a group of volunteers performing the same service that many organizations and individual sportsmen currently provide. We as sportsmen need to obey the regulations, respect private property, respect the resource open to us, and police our own ranks.
"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 21:38:07
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ORIGINAL: outfortrout
Why are landowners allowed to own the stream and the access to it to begin with? Is it like this in other states? It seems a shame that we have these wonderful resources and can't use them.
A prime example is the Clarion River from Johnsonburg down to Ridgway. It's supposed to be trophy trout catch and release water. Don't ask me where to fish it though because almost the whole **** thing is posted no trespassing.
Do your homework. They dont own the stream, but the stream bed. A question for you. From what authority comes someone's right to own property?
"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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Kokanee Killer
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 22:29:01
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jus fish 
I have become comfortably numb
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outfortrout
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 23:17:11
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ORIGINAL: Riverbum
ORIGINAL: outfortrout
Why are landowners allowed to own the stream and the access to it to begin with? Is it like this in other states? It seems a shame that we have these wonderful resources and can't use them.
A prime example is the Clarion River from Johnsonburg down to Ridgway. It's supposed to be trophy trout catch and release water. Don't ask me where to fish it though because almost the whole **** thing is posted no trespassing.
Do your homework. They dont own the stream, but the stream bed. A question for you. From what authority comes someone's right to own property? Â
I am doing my homework. That's why I'm here asking the question. You're obviously an authority on the subject so I guess my homework is done. Hooray! So they own the stream bed but not the stream. Doesn't make much difference does it. Either way it's un-fishable. Also, yes I realize that people are entitled to own property. I own property myself. I don't own a stream bed though. I'm just saying that I wish it wasn't possible for anyone to own a stream bed or access to that stream bed. I know that isn't going to change. Just saying I wish it wasn't the case.
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wrighter00
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/12 23:52:29
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You're welcome at my place anytime, River. Just let me know if you need a place to stay. We can go fishing in the morning, if you'd like.
The moment you start talking about things from a legal stand point you lose what's fundamental to life. It isn't the respectful people that you don't want on your land. There seems to be enough of those people on this sight that I wouldn't worry about who's on mine. It might be different for hunting as there would be less deer on a ranch than fish in the river that runs through it, but as far as fishing goes I wouldn't mind at all if people fished my land. As my land, I would take personal responsibility to make sure that it wasn't a **** hole when the nice folks came through. I wouldn't be so happy about the scumbags that come through, but someone has to make up for them.
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Ginnis 
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 00:36:41
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wrighter, i would never, ever, ever let you handle fish on my land...
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Ginnis
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 00:38:33
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ORIGINAL: outfortrout
ORIGINAL: Riverbum
ORIGINAL: outfortrout
Why are landowners allowed to own the stream and the access to it to begin with? Is it like this in other states? It seems a shame that we have these wonderful resources and can't use them.
A prime example is the Clarion River from Johnsonburg down to Ridgway. It's supposed to be trophy trout catch and release water. Don't ask me where to fish it though because almost the whole **** thing is posted no trespassing.
Do your homework. They dont own the stream, but the stream bed. A question for you. From what authority comes someone's right to own property?
I am doing my homework. That's why I'm here asking the question. You're obviously an authority on the subject so I guess my homework is done. Hooray! So they own the stream bed but not the stream. Doesn't make much difference does it. Either way it's un-fishable.
Also, yes I realize that people are entitled to own property. I own property myself. I don't own a stream bed though. I'm just saying that I wish it wasn't possible for anyone to own a stream bed or access to that stream bed. I know that isn't going to change. Just saying I wish it wasn't the case.
did u even take the time to read the prior pages about navigability before posting this?
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Wally Cat
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 07:03:42
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Be careful what you wish for you might just get it - more clubs on the creeks! And with the type of negative talk here I wouldn't be surprised if you "ticked" some landowner off and they post more or another stretch of stream. We should be thankfull for what we have and do our best to properly take care of those stretches of stream that are open. Pick up your own trash and that of others that they may have left. The terms "posted, keep out, private property and no trespassing" mean exactly that and if you infringe on that property owners rights to post his/her land and get caught don't you think they talk to their neighbors which causes hostility. I know if it where my property and someone trashed me on this site I'd soon be out posting my property and may even lease it to a private organization or person just for spite, the money or just because I could. We're lucky to have the areas we have now to fish so speak softly and tread lightly.
Just my nickles worth.
Enjoy Life, Be Happy, Go Fish - Often! "God has blessed America - may He continue to do so, even though we are not worthy of it". Author..... Wally Cat
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ShutUpNFish
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 07:46:01
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4 pages of this crap and still on top?? 
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chrisrowboat
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 08:23:55
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The easements are working and we do have water to fish on. With 4 mile opening up and seeing that most of that stream will be open, perhaps the FPAF&BC can move half of the fish that stocked on Elk to 4 mile. More fish perhaps a good run on that stream.
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wrighter00
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 12:04:35
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In relation the the communal society. Nearly everywhere in PA except for the cities has volunteer Fire fighters and EMTs. In my hometown my friend planted morning glories all along his chain linked fence. The boro fined him saying that he could not have his fence look overgrown. Their grounds were that his house was the first one while coming into town, and it had to give off the impression that it was a nice community. The magistrate sided with him. There are boros worse than that. Move to Mt Lebanon, but don't let your grass get too high or put your garbage out early. You'll get fined. The government collects tax money from the members of society as opposed to raising money through a private enterprise. There's a number of public organizations such as the Rotary, Teamsters, Salvation Army, Food Bank, AMVets, American Legion, Moose, Elks, Churches etc etc that provide a number of services to the communities, all of which get tax write offs for doing something that the government doesn't have to organize. So I ask, if we don't live in a communal society, what kind of society do we live in? You're right though. We shouldn't work together. SEND IN THE NUKES!!! WE'LL STRAIGHTEN THIS OUT!!!
post edited by wrighter00 - 2010/12/13 12:11:06
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 12:56:48
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ORIGINAL: wrighter00
So I ask, if we don't live in a communal society, what kind of society do we live in? You're right though. We shouldn't work together. SEND IN THE NUKES!!! WE'LL STRAIGHTEN THIS OUT!!!
Well, its a free society based on the principles of a representative republic. Don't blow a gasket. I never suggested folks shouldn't work together if they choose. You can keep beating your head against that wall of established law or you could contribute to one of the many organizations that work to purchase private land and grant it to the public. Funny how the "we should work together" guy wants to send in the nukes.
"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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wrighter00
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 13:28:15
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That was a joke, bro. haha. And I'm rather calm. I believe what we're doing here is similar to town meetings all over the country.
Laws are not these infallible things once they're established. How many have been enacted, then rejected or disected, then removed, then reformed, and finally reinstated. Look at the constituion. We're walking a fine line these days on whether or not we should just say F what the forefathers said. We can do it better. Some of it may be through a better understanding, but some of it is through corruption. The government is more and more acting like it is some private enterprise when it still has to beg money from it's citizens. They then use that money for things that the citizens don't always agree with. There's a problem with democracy. It's all about "every voice is heard", but if you aren't in the majority you're screwed. This country is so vastly different nowadays, being a melting pot, that the majority is no longer in the interest of everyone. Smaller groups of people, who are still groups that seek what they need from their country, are getting left out. Besides all of that you only get a select few people that you can vote for. If they aren't in the interest of your views, again, you're screwed. It's all very complicated, but the most complicating factor is that no one seems to be willing to work together. Most times because of some minor difference of opinion. Look at the democrats and republicans. They rule our country, and they are more interested in squabbling than working together.
One of the foundations of America was, yes, that you should have the freedom to make as much $ as you want with a private enterprise that you yourself built. However, if you aren't the government then you can't "legally" use government/public/someone else's property to make that money. That property in this case is the fish. Stock your own fish as any store would have to stock it's own shelves. It would different, also, if these fish were native, but that's just not the case.
Let it be known too, that these kind of things my friends and I discuss regularly. I would love to share it with anyone else that is interested.
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 13:59:15
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No worries, its all good. Possibly the steelhead program grew far beyond the FC's vision, otherwise they may have acted sooner and on a larger scale to secure easements along and to the tribs.
"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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thedrake
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 14:50:37
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It's unreal that this topic went on for 4 pages. The fact that people are trying to find loopholes to fish others peoples private property is absurd. This thread shows exactly why landowners get mad. If you're not allowed there, don't fish it. No more needs to be said. There's been too many threads about this over the past couple months. The facts from them can be summed up below: -There's no navigable water in Erie. -The streambeds in Erie are owned by the property owners. -There's no loophole that allows anyone to fish where they are not allowed. -You can't float your way down any Erie trib without touching dry land, don't bother trying it. -"Keep out", does in fact mean Keep Out. There's no other way to interperet it. -A fishing license is not a tresspass license. It doesn't matter how many fish you believe you purchased with your license. -If you want permission to fish somewhere, ask the landowner. Biching about a particular piece of posted property on a forum will not help you gain access. -Sneaking into posted areas will only hurt the chances of it ever being open in the future. Doing so only strenghens the landowners decision to keep it posted. -Believe it or not, there are, in fact, fish in non-posted waters. Instead of sulking about where you can't fish. Go fish where you can, and enjoy it. The grass is not always greener on the other side, and the fishing is not always better on the other side of the signs.
post edited by thedrake - 2010/12/14 12:19:58
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DarDys
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 15:03:48
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You really must stop trying to make sense.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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thedrake
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 15:12:14
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I know Shawn.
Wait for it. Someone will try to argue against it....any second now....
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dano
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 15:38:18
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D-nymph
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 15:59:32
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ORIGINAL: thedrake
It's unreal that this topic went on for 4 pages.
The fact that people are trying to find loopholes to fish others peoples private property is absurd. This thread shows exactly why landowners get mad. If you're not allowed there, don't fish it. No more needs to be said.
There's been too many threads about this over the past couple months. The facts from them can be summed up below:
-There's no navigable water in Erie.
-The streambeds in Erie are owned by the property owners.
-There's no loophole that allows anyone to fish where they are not allowed.
-You can't float your way down any Erie trib without touching dry land, don't bother trying it.
-"Keep out", does in fact mean Keep Out. There's no other way to interperet it.
-A fishing license is not a tresspass license. It doesn't matter how many fish you believe you purchased with your license.
-If you want permission to fish somewhere, ask the landowner. Biching a particular piece of posted property on a forum will not help you gain access.
-Sneaking into posted areas will only hurt the chances of it ever being open in the future. Doing so only strenghens the landowners decision to keep it posted.
-Believe it or not, there are, in fact, fish in non-posted waters. Instead of sulking about where you can't fish. Go fish where you can, and enjoy it. The grass is not always greener on the other side, and the fishing is not always better on the other side of the signs.
This is a bunch of  ok, just kidding, still waiting!
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 16:26:01
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There are more than one issue being discussed here. As for not trespassing, that issue has clearly been presented. DO NOT TRESPASS. The definitions of trespassing have been clearly articulated. No one reading this tread should have any misunderstanding of what the trespassing laws are. As for finding ways around the laws in PA that pertain to ownership of creek beds, there will be those who will argue that point. The laws in PA are not the same as they are elsewhere and for someone coming here from where there are wading laws, it is natural they would feel a need to express that PA's laws are not the end all and be all and could be changed in the future. If that makes landowners mad, sorry. Also, while the creeks are not considered navigable today, there are some who would beg to differ with that opinion and given the right circumstances and finances may choose to challenge that in court. If that angers some, then sorry. We live in a country where people are allowed to challenge the status quo. That is why we have courts. Another issue being discussed is easements and how to access them when there is posted land between where you CAN enter the stream and where the easement is. That is a legitimate discussion as I see it and should not anger anyone. Yet another issue is how to better develop good relationships with landowners and the fishing public. Not just talking about fishing private property is going to go very far. Believe it or not there are some on this board who respect a landowners land and would like to at the same time be able to find away that people can have access. Finding ways to develop positive relationships in my opinion is not wrong. If an individual landowner does not want to talk about access, or positive relationships with the fishing public and wants to post their land, then I would say go ahead. That is their choice so any further discussion on the matter should not make one bit of difference to them. The posted signs say all they need to say. The last topic that was being discussed was trying to end rumors by getting accurate information about what land is posted, what land is leased, what land is open to the public, etc... Again if having this discussion angers people I am sorry, but it would seem to me having wild rumors floating aorund out there would be more problematic. The truth is better than speculation and lies. One other observation here is there are those who are discussing hypothetical and generalize ideas and concepts and those who are dealing with concrete facts. What I see happening is people are talking on different levels and not communicating at all. It is one thing to hold a conversation about ideology and have another dealing with specific details. It is the old theory vs. practice issue. In the end, this is a public forum where a wide variety of opinions and ideas are discussed. That is why we have the forum. Opinions and ideas are just that, opinions and ideas. There are landowners who maybe offended, they have every right to speak their mind here. There are most likely others who are not. The landowners are a diverse group just like the members of this board. I would love to hear first hand what the landowners are truly thinking so that we are not just dealing with what WE think they are thinking. When you assume, you can make some big mistakes. My final word on this is it is my hope that we all, fisherman, landowners and everyone who has a stake in the fishery can find a way to live in peace. There is no reason we why we can't.
post edited by Bughawk - 2010/12/13 16:27:56
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brown trout
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 16:27:32
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Drake's post is right on. People spend way to much time worrying about what water is posted and they can't fish, than just trying to fish the available water, learn new spots, etc. Also, his comment about fish in nonposted water is so true, not only in Erie, but everywhere. My home stream is a popular PA limestoner, only about 40 minutes from my house. It is fairly heavily fished, especially on the fly section and in the early season. Later in summer/fall/winter, the crowds at time are zero. About 3 years ago I was fortunate to gain access to about a 1/4+ mile of posted water on this creek, known to hold some very nice trout. So, for the next three years, I started fishing this water almost exclusively when I am on that particualr stream. I did well, on size and numbers, but also didn't get any mind boggling sized browns that I expected. I fished flies, and and every bait imaginable from my noodle rod(yes I am a spin fisherman LOL), always staying very finesse in the clear waters. So this year, I decided I was going to also go back to fishing some of the more traveled "open" areas. I kept accurate notes, and I caught just as many fish as I did fishing the heavily posted water, and even better yet, as my screen name applies I am a brown trout addict, I caught my 2 largest browns EVER from that stream, one a personal best from anywhere, including Erie. The first was 30 1/2", 13 lbs, and the 2nd was a thinner 29". Both from property open to EVERYONE, and really not overly hard to access.
post edited by brown trout - 2010/12/13 16:30:27
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fisherofmen376
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 20:09:53
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"Believe it or not, there are, in fact, fish in non-posted waters. Instead of sulking about where you can't fish. Go fish where you can, and enjoy it. The grass is not always greener on the other side, and the fishing is not always better on the other side of the signs." AMEN!!!! 
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." Matthew 4:19
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Livinfishin
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 20:26:57
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ORIGINAL: chrisrowboat
The easements are working and we do have water to fish on. With 4 mile opening up and seeing that most of that stream will be open, perhaps the FPAF&BC can move half of the fish that stocked on Elk to 4 mile. More fish perhaps a good run on that stream.
Open to where? Above the fish ladder is all posted property until the waterfall. The same waterfall that the fish would need a rocket up their a** in order to clear it. Wouldn't this same project been much more productive on a stream like 16-mile that has miles of open water above the falls and already gets a decent return of fish?
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Livinfishin
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/13 20:46:06
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As far as Elk goes, yes private property rights trump everything else. Private property rights = liberty which equals America. So enough said there. Don't trespass or enter private property without permission, weither it is on a stream or anywhere else. Having said that, above the legion hole property, there are approximately 10 or so miles of water on Elk Creek, AT LEAST 5 to 6 of which are closed to the public and will probably remain so. That translates to 50+% of that water being off limits. At what point does it become part of the discussion to either construct a dam at the legion park (considering all posted property on the creek is above that point) or stop stocking Elk Creek all together and re-locate those smolts to other creeks with more open water. To be clear I don't think we are at that point yet for either option especially for option number two, but I think we are getting darn close to at least pondering the possiblity of option number one. Or even doing a combination of both. Limit fish movement to the lower 5 miles of Elk Creek and reduce the stocking numbers accordingly and re-allocate the rest of the smolts on other streams.
post edited by Livinfishin - 2010/12/13 23:27:13
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