LockedPersonal Responsibility. 
wrighter00
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 02:12:13
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Bring on the flack, but there's one option not being considered. One that it may be too late for. IF you ARE going to fish a new area, that may or may not be posted, don't litter, don't park where you're not supposed to, don't clean your fish on the land, don't take a dump on the land(even if the animals are allowed to), and don't threaten the land-owner if you run into them. You, most definately, will still be TRESSPASSING, but at least you won't be a part of the reason why the land got posted.(commercial interests and selfishness aside) In theory, if people do this then previously aggravated owner will no longer be aggravated, and previously posted land will become unposted again, right?(I'm not holding my breath) I believe that's what the afore mentioned personal responsibility is all about, yea? No, I'm not going to tresspass. No, I'm not condoning it. Yes, I'm offering something for all sides to consider. Personally, I would never post fishable land, nor would I mind dealing with the fishermen. If/when I can afford large chunks of property I think I can afford to put some trash cans along the creek. I'd think of it as what some might call a park. To think, I could fish when I went down to empty the cans. How convenient would that be?
post edited by wrighter00 - 2010/12/09 04:18:45
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mossy oak
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 02:16:44
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Hmmmm, do you one better Loop, after the easement is signed, let a guide, self proclaimed good guy, come in and sign an agreement for cash on the property that is unaccessible and yet he has the "big" dawgs on here defending him cuz his sponsors spoiled and outifitted kin. Gotta love politics and Erie.
Mo
so save your breath I could not hear, I think I made it very clear...
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DarDys
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 08:42:11
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The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 08:49:24
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What if all lease deals were to be made of public and these records are published, say on a sight like this so everyone knows exactly where the leases are, who the parties are and how much the leases are for. That way there would be absolutely no excuse for someone wandering onto property where the big boys go to fish, or wildly speculating about backroom deals, etc.... Everything would be out in the open and shut down the rumor mill.
It may be very interesting to see exactly what little slices of heaven out there are reserved for the special folks, who is reserving it and how much cash is changing hands... I would imagine quite a few people would be interested in knowing that.
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indsguiz
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 09:16:42
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Mo I never said I supported the exclusiveness of the arrangement. I said THEY approached the problem in the correct manner. And the purpose of the posting was to point out that the land was posted, and some people have been acting like asses and tresspassing. I also took the time to point out how a person could go about trying to get personal, individual, access. Of course you may be denied, but you may get access. BTW the amount the PFBC offered for total access was a pittance. I think they spent more on the "fish ladder to nowhere" on 4 mile. What the land owner wants is for people to take personal responsibility for their actions while on his/their property, and he feels that his way is the best way to achieve this, because it hasn't been happening before. Just as in other cases, the land was semi-open, but recently the people have become more and more of a problem so the harder restrictions have been put in place. Slob fishermen caused the problem.
post edited by indsguiz - 2010/12/09 09:21:19
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Rainbow1
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 09:23:14
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ORIGINAL: mossy oak
Hmmmm, do you one better Loop, after the easement is signed, let a guide, self proclaimed good guy, come in and sign an agreement for cash on the property that is unaccessible and yet he has the "big" dawgs on here defending him cuz his sponsors spoiled and outifitted kin. Gotta love politics and Erie.
[/aline] I am with you MO, Loop and Bug. One parcel supper rich fishing club, Other out of state Guide. One witch will not disclose who actually works for them and the other has so many locals or former locals with connections as guides. I even hear there is a shop with some private access also. I like what Bug has referred to a web list of locations and names of the properly [landowners, guides, shops, fishing clubs] of who, where and how much the lease cost and length of lease made public. If these are not documented and made public, make the trespass law such as it will not stand in court. Fish and Boat could make a regulation of such to make sure all potential liabilities are taken care of such as taxes(local property, wage, and tips), insurance[property, business and workman's comp].The state could curb the exodus of open land to private land by regulating these businesses to death. How much money actually is spent by these private properties to the local community? Call the lease holders out if they don't contribute back to the community. Lock these landowners and businesses up in red tape unless they sign it over to the public. The Erie area needs the economic impact in dollars, when there is little to none, why bother....stop the steelhead program and stock browns that will not swim up stream very far. How many big brown lake run trout have been caught at Follies?
post edited by Rainbow1 - 2010/12/09 09:26:41
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Rainbow1
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 09:28:58
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ORIGINAL: indsguiz
Mo I never said I supported the exclusiveness of the arrangement. I said THEY approached the problem in the correct manner. And the purpose of the posting was to point out that the land was posted, and some people have been acting like asses and tresspassing. I also took the time to point out how a person could go about trying to get personal, individual, access. Of course you may be denied, but you may get access. BTW the amount the PFBC offered for total access was a pittance. I think they spent more on the "fish ladder to nowhere" on 4 mile. What the land owner wants is for people to take personal responsibility for their actions while on his/their property, and he feels that his way is the best way to achieve this, because it hasn't been happening before. Just as in other cases, the land was semi-open, but recently the people have become more and more of a problem so the harder restrictions have been put in place. Slob fishermen caused the problem.
His brothers property was different.
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ShutUpNFish 
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 09:43:47
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ORIGINAL: DarDys
ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
ORIGINAL: DarDys
ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
I think if more people fished for more of a variety of species, this whole subject wouldn't be as much of a big deal. People who generally target just one or few species, are the ones who typically do the most complaining. Especially in terms of steelbows....THESE are where the most heated discussions occur as well.
And yet there is a steelhead in your avator.
Nope, that's my son in my signature...there will most likely be a monster muskie in my avatar in the spring.
A little young to have gone steelhead fishing all by himself isn't he? Did someone other than you take him?
I must be missing something....What is your point? Ok I think I get it...Perhaps you misunderstood my point...which was that most folks who do the bitc*^ng/whining about no places to fish, too many ppl, mishandling of precious fish, yadda, yadda, yadda are those who pretty much ONLY fish for steelhead. My avatar is my son's first steel...and yes, I get it, and yes I fish for them as well. HOWEVER, I also fish for about 10 other species and steelhead is not particularly my favorite. Got it?
post edited by ShutUpNFish - 2010/12/09 09:59:38
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indsguiz
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 12:23:57
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Rainbow 1 So basically you are saying that a landowner; who was never asked if he wanted the creeks open, and who still allows some people to use his property, should have his property rights taken away to make YOU happy? People caused the problem by not obeying the PA State law. Not some arbitrary desire of a person, or group of people to have their own desires. The rights of property owners are etched in State Law, going back over 200 years. The property in question is NOT LEASED. It is restricted. And it is restricted because of the actions of people who try to bludgeon the land owners with their desires. Maybe you are part of the problem. Have YOU requested access? And if you were turned down, Why? Let's see; if I can take the time, after having to drive for almost a full day, to go and walk and ask permission why can't you. I've been turned down many times myself. But I respect the landowners rights. Do you? I want to add an addendum to this discussion for some peoples consideration: I'm one of th "Old Timers". I fished the tribs since 1970. I have personally lost access due to posting and leases. And yet I have started, and continue to facilitate, the "One Fly" whose stated purpose is to promote public access, C&R fishing and respect for landowners rights. I'm not one of the bad guys but I do believe in Personal Responsibility, very strongly. Trespassing, and ripping down signs are not responsible actions.
post edited by indsguiz - 2010/12/09 12:50:30
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 12:43:15
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Just a little more to add to the discussion - from the following link http://realestate.findlaw.com/trespassing/trespassing-basics.html Trespassing is a legal term that can refer to a wide variety of offenses against a person or against property. Trespassing as it relates to real estate law means entering onto land without consent of the landowner. There are both criminal and civil trespass laws. Criminal trespass law is enforced by police, sheriffs, or park rangers. Civil trespass requires that the landowner initiate a private enforcement action in court to collect any damages for which the trespasser may be responsible (regardless of whether a crime has been committed). Intent and Knowledge Requirements Traditionally, for either type of trespass -- criminal or civil -- some level of intent is required. Thus, the trespasser must not simply unwittingly traverse another's land but must knowingly go onto the property without permission. Knowledge may be inferred when the owner tells the trespasser not to go on the land, when the land is fenced, or when a "no trespassing" sign is posted. A trespasser would probably not be prosecuted if the land was open, the trespasser's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property, and the trespasser left immediately on request. Express Consent The landowner may indicate -- verbally or in writing -- permission to enter onto the land. Implied Consent The existence of consent may be implied from the landowner's conduct, from custom, or from the circumstances. Consent may be implied if the landowner was unavailable to give consent, and immediate action is necessary to save a life or prevent a serious injury.
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 13:07:49
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It seems to me the confusion some have here is in the intent aspect of the trespassing law. If the land is not posted, has been regularly open to the public in the past or property lines are not clearly indicated I can easily see where a person entering a stream at a public access point could wander onto private land and not know it.
While it is technically a crime to be on someone's property without their permission, you may not know if permission will has been given to the public to be on the land unless you have spoken to the landowner who has the authority to grant permission or there is some public notification the land is open or the land is posted that it is open to the public.
To end the confusion and make it perfectly clear where you can and cannot go, there needs to be a much better system of signs and maps. I fully understand you need to talk with the landowner, but think about this folks. Do think a landowner wants a stream of people banging on his or her door everyday asking to fish? What about determining who actually owns a specific piece of property. Take Walnut creek up near the lake. There are large number of people who own property along the stretch between Manchester bridge to Rt. 5 and beyond. Lots of doors to bang on, plus you have the railways to deal with.... Should you flag down a train and ask the engineer for permission?
There has to be a better way to do this that takes into consideration the wishes of the landowners and informs the fishing public. My whole point is to make life easy for all parties concerned.
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heyiknowyou
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 13:21:14
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y'all need to take some xanax and chill out for a bit
go back to spain 11-12-11: the last time i got punched in the face
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DarDys
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 13:44:04
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ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
ORIGINAL: DarDys
ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
ORIGINAL: DarDys
ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
I think if more people fished for more of a variety of species, this whole subject wouldn't be as much of a big deal. People who generally target just one or few species, are the ones who typically do the most complaining. Especially in terms of steelbows....THESE are where the most heated discussions occur as well.
And yet there is a steelhead in your avator.
Nope, that's my son in my signature...there will most likely be a monster muskie in my avatar in the spring.
A little young to have gone steelhead fishing all by himself isn't he? Did someone other than you take him?
I must be missing something....What is your point?
Ok I think I get it...Perhaps you misunderstood my point...which was that most folks who do the bitc*^ng/whining about no places to fish, too many ppl, mishandling of precious fish, yadda, yadda, yadda are those who pretty much ONLY fish for steelhead. My avatar is my son's first steel...and yes, I get it, and yes I fish for them as well. HOWEVER, I also fish for about 10 other species and steelhead is not particularly my favorite. Got it?
Just pointing out the irony. See Sgt. Hulka quote. I get.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 14:12:15
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you guys are really reaching...willing to negate personal property rights...regulate businesses to death...force private landowners to reveal their finances...
Here's a thought, your privilege to fish never trumps individual liberty.
Know your surroundings and fish the several miles of public waters.
"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 15:36:22
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Riverbum, in some states there are wading laws. If you can get to the water, you can wade it. You cannot however cross private land to get to the water. In PA the law does not allow for this.
As for disclosing the actual amounts of lease agreements, perhaps that is going too far, but I would think any lease agreement is a matter of public record. Most real estate transactions are and are often published in the news paper. These agreements would also come to play in case a piece of property came up for sale. Any selling of rights to a property would have to be disclosed and I would imagine any lease for fishing or hunting would be as well.
My intent to have the leases published was not to cause the property owner harm, but to end all the rumors about backroom deals, etc... and let the correct information be known.
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 15:36:45
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Laws About No Trespassing Signs in Pennsylvania By Chris McGann, eHow Contributor : September 29, 2010 [/align  Hunters and hikers often encounter posted land and should keep out. Many rural landowners post "no trespassing" signs on their property to keep out unauthorized hunters, campers and hikers. Obviously, signs will not physically keep trespassers off a person's property, but such signs can deter would-be trespassers, especially when there is no other indication of a property line such as fences or property makers. There are no records on the number or acreage of posted land in Pennsylvania, but about 80 percent of land in the state is privately owned. Trespassing in Pennsylvania Pennsylvania criminal law makes distinctions among four different types of trespassing. Under Pennsylvania law, police can charge a person for simple trespass, criminal trespass, defiant trespass and agricultural trespass. A person could face multiple charges for a single incident and a trial or plea agreement will ultimately determine the final charge for which a person will be sentenced. In general, the Pennsylvania code defines trespass as knowingly entering and remaining on another person's property without permission. Specific Statutes Criminal trespass, which carries the heaviest penalties, only applies to breaking into physical buildings. Defiant trespass applies in any case where a property owner has communicated to a person that he does not have permission to be on the land or in a building. Simple trespass applies in cases where a person enters a building or property for the purpose of threatening another person, starting a fire or defacing the property. Agricultural trespass only applies to farm land and does not apply to abandoned buildings on agricultural land. Pennsylvania sets the statute of limitations on trespassing at two years. Notice of Private Property "No trespassing" signs legally communicate the owner's desire not to have other people on the property. The Pennsylvania code specifically states that signs, "reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders," constitute actual communication or that desire. As a result, anyone simply entering posted property can be charged with a misdemeanor charge of defiant trespass if caught. Sign Theft Pennsylvania statues do not directly address removing "no trespassing" signs, but anyone defacing or removing such signs can face charges of criminal mischief and theft. Police can grade those offenses as summary or misdemeanor charges. Enforcement
State and any local police have jurisdiction to enforce criminal trespass laws and file charges with the local magisterial district judge. Landowners typically worry most about trespassers during hunting season when many hunters enter the woods in search of deer, bear and other game. Pennsylvania Game Commission officers do not have the authority to enforce trespassing laws, but will assist police in investigating allegations. The Game Commission suggests landowners who witness trespassing to get any hunting license or license plate numbers and contact police. Read more: Laws About No Trespassing Signs in Pennsylvania | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_7196069_laws-trespassing-signs-pennsylvania.html#ixzz17eGQTfQl
post edited by Bughawk - 2010/12/09 15:38:40
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 17:28:40
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You must have cabin fever from all that snow. I never suggested you could cross private land. Some states have "wading laws" because those water systems are most likley navigable. PA has very similar laws. We're talking erie tribs here and none are navigable, therefore you dont have access to a creek bed that's private. Here, I'll parphrase myself and then stop beating this horse...
Your privilege to fish does not trump property rights, no matter how many types of tresspassing laws there are.
"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/09 18:50:48
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Riverbum,
You may be right about the navigable water issue, but all I know was when I was in Montana a couple of summers ago the rule was once you were on the water, you stay on the water and there would be no problem. Any stream was open. Some of the streams I fished I highly doubt would ever have been considered navigable, but that is not the issue.
Property rights in PA are what they are and given we live in a state where individual rights trump every other consideration, we will learn to deal with the reality.
Honestly, I really could care less where one can fish or not fish. I rarely fish for steelies anymore. Since I don't have a dog in this fight, I think it best to find something else to do than waste my time trying to have a discussion about how to improve the fishery on the tribs.
Good luck to all who fish.
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dano
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/10 08:35:29
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Bughawk,
You aren't wasting your time. Actually, I think you've added some angles worthy of consideration.
At the least, you use an honest, caring perspective.
I for one think it's a shame when a couple of properties buffer another landowner who is willing to share his property.
You would think that there would be at least a right of passage easement to access that piece of property. Instead, we have adjacent landowners who hold the rights to that access.
So as of now, that certain public easement only benefits a local guide. a few non-local guides, a non local fishing club and the few privileged enough to have access. What a shame as I'm sure those I mentioned would not want to see any changes.
Those are the people whom in there best interest is to keep the general public outside the fence.
So Dave, keep it coming.
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tippecanoe
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/10 08:58:49
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do you plan on taking responsibility for this thread jack?
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DarDys
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/10 09:32:37
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Bug,
You add to every discussion whether people agree with you or not.
It is not a waste of your time. Or ours.
Please continue to contribute.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/10 11:42:38
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It is not an issue of agreeing or not agreeing with me DarDys, it is more of an issue of we have been down this road before like a zillion times. Perhaps frustration is my real issue here. Dano, I posted on a different thread a rather sarcastic response to Spoon about easements and the Fish Commission maps. If you look at them and read the little instructions they give you as to how you are supposed to access the areas where there are easements, you could easily get the impression it is OK to enter the stream and walk to these areas. From my understanding of the situation you mentioned, you are not allowed to walk the stream to get to the easement because if you did you would be trespassing. I guess I will have to take up Eastern Transcendental Meditation so I can learn to levitate and maybe I could just fly over the posted land and come down on the easement area.... (more sarcasm) One other really sad thing is the idiots who are trespassing, tearing down signs, threatening landowners, working out backroom deals for private access, etc... are not going to pay one bit of attention to anything that is said on this forum. They have made up their minds to do as they please and that is it. The only hope we do have is to help educate those who come here for information about what is and not acceptable behavior. Another thing that seems to really irritate me is the mentality of people who come up to fish and think that because they drove several hours to get here they somehow deserve to fish where they want. I don't care if you came from the other side of the moon you don't have any different right to fish than the guy who walks out his backdoor and down a path to the creek. The rules apply to everyone equally.
post edited by Bughawk - 2010/12/10 11:44:24
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Loopy
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/10 22:29:03
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I propose we put together a fund to purchase a helicopter and someone to fly it. Who's with me.
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fisherofmen376
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 00:55:13
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Loopy that's a great idea. I got five on it.
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." Matthew 4:19
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indsguiz
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 01:02:15
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I know where there is a huey, and it still has the rapelling links in the floor. I get to be Murdock!
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 08:34:53
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I would like one of those rocket backpacks...
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rapala11
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 08:52:53
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helicopter pilot, you say? i have a buddy who was one during the nam era. he crashed two off a carrier and on land. he is currently laid off if you need him. ....and he is a fly fisherman.
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killer caddis
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 10:48:28
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I tried bringing this subject up in another thread but got no response. Basically the gist of it was to fight Donnie Beaver at his own game by raising the steelhead stamp maybe another 25 dollars and using that money to form are own club and instead of getting easements to instead offer landowners say 5 yr leases where they can get out of the lease if to much crap goes on. Obviously you would have to make offers to all landowners even the ones that allow access because they'll want a piece of the pie to. I think alot of the landowners might reconsider allowing access to their property if you pay them say 10, 15, 20, grand with the ability to get out of the lease if to much bad behavior goes on and also if you limit where people could park to access there property, meaning people will have to park at known access points and walk via the streambed to get there. I'm sure the fish commission has a list of all property owners along the tribs. Pay these people. I know it's a pipe dream thought I throw it out there.
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 11:49:06
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The idea of a public club has been discussed. It did not seem to get any traction.
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dano
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/11 12:07:23
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ORIGINAL: Bughawk
The idea of a public club has been discussed. It did not seem to get any traction.
I thought they were talking about another kind of club  .  Actually Bug, a club may still be an option. Public or whatever...
post edited by dano - 2010/12/11 12:24:09
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