psu_fish
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/07 20:55:12
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I've seen numerous guys hunt a wooded median by the Brookville exit on I-80...Mile Marker 76
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World Famous
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/07 21:19:00
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Paul2ski, I should have smiley faced my remark. Spoon has the good answer. Outfortrout, it depends on how the deed is written as to the property line going to the center of the stream, the stream bank, across the stream or by a defined distance from another object. If there is posted signs, he probably owns where the signs are. A lot of the stream I have fished, the property lines, far from the roads, are not real evident. One could go to the courthouse for a map of the area, but it is usually difficult to tell where you are by looking at a map in comparison to the physical property. Anybody that tells you different, doesn't do this for a living. Yes, Ironhed, there is a "but"....WF
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/07 21:59:21
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There are no exceptions, period.
The obligation to comply lies with each of us, not the landowners. They have no obligation to post their property, but we have the absolute obligation to know our surroundings. There is a difference between accessing the creek by entering private land, which you should never do without permission and walking the stream and unwittingly (the first rule is to know where you are and where you are going) come across posted property, you immediately retreat.
The erie tribs are all designated "non-naviagable" waters which generally means you have no right of access to the creeks by watercraft or by walking the stream bed. The landowners almost all cases we're discussing here own the creek beds, therefore no trespassing.
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Ironhed
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/07 22:46:24
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Yes, Ironhed, there is a "but" I'm all ears and definately not a surveyor like yourself. Ironhed
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psu_fish
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/07 22:59:18
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ORIGINAL: capcity_tim
ORIGINAL: psu_fish
I've seen numerous guys hunt a wooded median by the Brookville exit on I-80...Mile Marker 76
I've seen it to.. I know the place. The median the guy was busted in is a pretty large area also. Used to see people hunt it all the time.
Hahaha yeah. There is an older house close to the highway that looks empty or at least really run down...this dude waited for me to drive past him and he walked over into the woods. Driving back and forth to school down in State College, I saw alot of hunting taking place around I-80
post edited by psu_fish - 2010/12/07 23:01:36
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cbeagler
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/07 23:37:00
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Thanks Indi
My 71 year old father in law just became the proud owner of a tree stand and climbing stick. We were out opening day and found it on his property in sight of the house. He looked at Dan and I and asked if we put it up for archery--we didn't. My nephew Hayden didn't. Then he got on the radio and asked his brother, nephew, grand nephew, and neighbor. Nope. The thing is, this was in sight of the house with no doubt as to whose land it was--just follow the lane up the field. And Ken has the same rule, let me know you want to hunt. Family gets first dibs, keep it clean, keep it safe, keep it legal. One year we were up there and found where some turkey hunters had set that morning--2 beer cans per seat.
beagler
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indsguiz
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/07 23:56:05
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The land owner owns all of the creek bed. There is NO wading rule. The property runs completely under the water. So if you are wading and your feet are touching the bottom , , you are tresspassing. It's simple and plain. Anybody who tells you otherwise is full of more crap than a Christmas Goose. The ONLY exception to this is IF the waterway has been declared a navigable waterway usable or used for commercial purposes. Which is NOT the case for ANY of the creeks in Erie. Don't look for loopholes, , , there aren't any!
Illegitimis Non carborundum
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outfortrout
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 00:33:34
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In the case of a navigable waterway what is the law there? Are we only allowed in the stream bed itself or do we get x amount of feat on each side?
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paul2ski
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 00:33:51
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well actually, there is one, I believe this to be true from some of the reading I have done, however I havent seen any of the actual laws, but you are allowed to go through the property, if you are on the water... I know of some people who white water raft down elk when the creeks are up, apparently some of the areas get pretty crazy and can be considered class 5 rapids. So I suppose if you are on the water (they can't own the actual water) and never touch the ground, then you are not breaking any laws and are not trespassing. But don't quote me on that... its just what I've read.
post edited by paul2ski - 2010/12/08 00:34:55
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FiveMilePete
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 02:43:11
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ORIGINAL: cbeagler
Thanks Indi
My 71 year old father in law just became the proud owner of a tree stand and climbing stick. We were out opening day and found it on his property in sight of the house. He looked at Dan and I and asked if we put it up for archery--we didn't. My nephew Hayden didn't. Then he got on the radio and asked his brother, nephew, grand nephew, and neighbor. Nope. The thing is, this was in sight of the house with no doubt as to whose land it was--just follow the lane up the field. And Ken has the same rule, let me know you want to hunt. Family gets first dibs, keep it clean, keep it safe, keep it legal. One year we were up there and found where some turkey hunters had set that morning--2 beer cans per seat.
beagler
Funny, today there was a letter to the editor in Times-News from an older guy who said someone stole his tree stand. 
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Sharpefly
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 05:06:44
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Earlier this year some freinds of mine caught Spring ridge putting no trespassing sign on easement property. When asked what they were doing they replied ok we didnt know where the lines were. Except 20 ft above where they were putting sign up was a state sign saying open to fishing. There are people that will post area's they do not own. When you get down in some of the high wall section no one even see's them not even the landowner. I know landowners that have land that is all high wall so you can't get to stream from their property.
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dano
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 07:51:47
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Is it common practice in Erie Co. that if there are no posted signs then it is open to fishing?
Or do you need to knock on someones door to get written or verbal permission from each landowner that owns stream front property.
btw, I like Bughawks sign use idea. It can get very confusing as to who's property you are on, especially Walnut Creek from rt 5 to the Millcreek Mall. How many properties are involved on that creek?
If anyone has fished Canadaway Creek in Fredonia, then you would know that you could cross well over 100 properties in a 2 mile stretch.
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ShutUpNFish 
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 08:27:39
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ORIGINAL: paul2ski
well actually, there is one, I believe this to be true from some of the reading I have done, however I havent seen any of the actual laws,
but you are allowed to go through the property, if you are on the water... I know of some people who white water raft down elk when the creeks are up, apparently some of the areas get pretty crazy and can be considered class 5 rapids. So I suppose if you are on the water (they can't own the actual water) and never touch the ground, then you are not breaking any laws and are not trespassing.
But don't quote me on that... its just what I've read.
The vibe I'm getting from reading your redundant posts, is that you're STILL trying to find SOME way or loophole to get you rights/permission to fish some of these private areas? You just need to accept the facts, laws and rights of private landowners....As someone said in the past, everyone has/had the same opportunities to buy up the land as it becomes available...And the land above the Legion hole area has been off limits to the public for some time now, and not just recently. Besides there is plenty of public access and fishable water on Elk anyhow. Sometimes I wonder if some people are REALLY seeking trying to catch more fish or seeking areas where nobody else is fishing??? If its the latter, I believe your priorities as a fisherman are skewed. Or is it the allure of doing something you know you're not supposed to or cannot? There are generally no more fish or such greater fishing opportunities on the private sections than there are on public sections. I'm pretty sure, in MOST cases, the landowner's main focus is NOT protecting or keeping the public away from the "motherload" of fish on their land, but rather keeping the trash/riff raff off it. Everyone basically has 4 choices: 1. Fish public waters only 2. Ask to fish a private area and deal with the outcome. 3. Fish wherever you want and deal with the consequences. 4. Whine about it on a public forum.  It appears you're doing just fine anyway... http://forums.fishusa.com/Fall_Fish_Porn/m_361157/tm.htm Now, can we move on to another subject like ice breaking tactics for winter steel or something like that??
post edited by ShutUpNFish - 2010/12/08 09:10:51
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DarDys
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 08:50:52
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ORIGINAL: cbeagler
Thanks Indi
My 71 year old father in law just became the proud owner of a tree stand and climbing stick. We were out opening day and found it on his property in sight of the house. He looked at Dan and I and asked if we put it up for archery--we didn't. My nephew Hayden didn't. Then he got on the radio and asked his brother, nephew, grand nephew, and neighbor. Nope. The thing is, this was in sight of the house with no doubt as to whose land it was--just follow the lane up the field. And Ken has the same rule, let me know you want to hunt. Family gets first dibs, keep it clean, keep it safe, keep it legal. One year we were up there and found where some turkey hunters had set that morning--2 beer cans per seat.
beagler
I spent about an hour yesterday one the neighbor's farm in an effort to help him out with his deer problem.  I wasn't there 10 minutes when a hunter comes out of the thicket where the deer normally do, crossed a section of planted field, and climber 3/4 of the way up the land owner's tree stand before he saw me. He then climbed down, and exited from whence he came. About 30 minutes later, I heard a shot from the direction he had gone. When shooting hours ended, I met up with the land owner's farm helper and the land owner's two nephews. No one knew who the guy was. The nephews said that they saw the guy in the woods right after he shot and when he saw them, he waved and beat it for Route 99. Apparently he had parked along 99 (unlawful), climbed the highway fence to access the farm (trespassing), and then attmepted to use the land owner's permanent tree stand (just not smart). They said that they saw the same guy the day before, but he was on the next farm over (also trespassing). If they see him this evening, I bet there will be a detention until the PSP can arrive.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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heyiknowyou
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 08:52:30
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ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
Besides there is plenty of public access and fishable water on Elk anyhow.
only like 6 miles downstream to the lake, and 6 or 7 miles upstream from folly's... but everyone knows all the fish are on the property you can't fish on though and paulski... you're right, you can technically float through private water (non-navigable) and not be trespassing... but if you do anything other than float through then you ARE trespassing.
post edited by heyiknowyou - 2010/12/08 08:53:17
go back to spain 11-12-11: the last time i got punched in the face
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Sharpefly
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 09:17:40
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The Fish Commission created this problem. There should have been more done for the landowners not just put fish in there property streams. A lot has been showed what money is brought into Erie by the steelhead fisherman. Yes all the business make money from us. What does the landowner get. 00000 He is the one that provides us a place to fish.
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indsguiz
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 10:21:18
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Sharpfly and others. the fish commissions startd putting fish in LONG before there was most of the development along the creeks. And in the beginning it was just in the hope of attracting a few (note few) visitors to Erie. What we have today is the result of a good intentioned experiment bastardized by greed and inconsiderate people. As other "old timers" would say I can remember when there were long stretches of creek with no anglers. Relationships with landowners were on a civil basis. People asked before they entered property. And many land owners actually liked to see an occasional fisherman. But littering, gutting/cleaning fish beside the creeks, tossing unwanted fish into the bushes after they were cut open for skein (a really good way to get land posted), relieveing onself in public view and general discourtesy, I could go on and on with a BIG list of No-no's; have brought us to where we are today. take a momen and look back on the posts of some of the "old timers" talking about the good old days and you'll see how the transition occurred.
As a good example. I can remember when the only people I came across on the creeks who had 7-10 wt rods were the people who were very avid fishermen, or had salt-water gear. lack of equipment kept many people from trying for steel.
Illegitimis Non carborundum
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spoonchucker
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 10:33:35
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For you "nursery waters" guys. Do you think taking a punitive approach toward those who post their property, will have a positive, or negative affect on our relationship with the others who currently allow access?
Secondly. How successfully do you think the PF&BC could defend declaring these areas "nursery waters", should one of DB's landlords sue? Keep in mind we are talking about non-native fish that are stocked enmasse, and have minimal natural reproduction at best.
Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference. Step Up, or Step Aside The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody. GL
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D-nymph
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 10:34:40
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ORIGINAL: indsguiz
Sharpfly and others. the fish commissions startd putting fish in LONG before there was most of the development along the creeks. And in the beginning it was just in the hope of attracting a few (note few) visitors to Erie. What we have today is the result of a good intentioned experiment bastardized by greed and inconsiderate people... ...who work at the PFBC. As I understand it the beginnings of that program is/was not even in the same universe as the program stands today.
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paul2ski
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 10:52:47
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I am not looking for a loophole to fish posted areas, I was just stating something I read about white water rafting, which I recently did this summer... I totally recommend it!! It was a blast! So I just found it interesting that people actually do that near here... they use kayaks I guess and do various stretches of Elk.
I dont know about you, but if I was checking out the stream conditions when its high and roaring, see a tree floating down, maybe a pumpkin or two... then a kayaker!! I wld be pretty amazed!
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indsguiz
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 10:56:09
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ORIGINAL: D-nymph
THAT is an understatement! Originally only about 1-2,000 fish were stocked if I recall correctly.
ORIGINAL: indsguiz
Sharpfly and others. the fish commissions startd putting fish in LONG before there was most of the development along the creeks. And in the beginning it was just in the hope of attracting a few (note few) visitors to Erie. What we have today is the result of a good intentioned experiment bastardized by greed and inconsiderate people...
...who work at the PFBC.
As I understand it the beginnings of that program is/was not even in the same universe as the program stands today.
Illegitimis Non carborundum
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Bughawk
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 11:00:03
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We could settle this whole issue of trespassing, private interest exploiting what some see as a public resource (the fish, not the land), etc... STOP stocking the fish. No fish, no fisherman, no problems. The landowners can have peace and quiet, the fisherman can find somewhere else to fish and there will be no more complaints.
I agree with Sharpfly, the PFBC did create this mess with the stocking, but I also agree that more than likely there was no one who ever thought steelhead fishing would evolve into what it is today. The law of unintended consequences is definitely at work here. The gold rush like mentality I have seen from many fisherman is what has ruined a once great fishery.
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ShutUpNFish
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 11:34:45
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I think if more people fished for more of a variety of species, this whole subject wouldn't be as much of a big deal. People who generally target just one or few species, are the ones who typically do the most complaining. Especially in terms of steelbows....THESE are where the most heated discussions occur as well.
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DarDys
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 12:48:55
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ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
I think if more people fished for more of a variety of species, this whole subject wouldn't be as much of a big deal. People who generally target just one or few species, are the ones who typically do the most complaining. Especially in terms of steelbows....THESE are where the most heated discussions occur as well.
And yet there is a steelhead in your avator.
post edited by DarDys - 2010/12/08 12:49:15
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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KJH807
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 13:03:17
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here a little interesting scenario
person hears about steelhead fishing for the first time
person goes to Erie and is completely turned off by crowds at easy access and parking locations
person looks for some un-pressured fishing and asks "where should I go?"
response "WALK... don't be lazy... get out an explore for yourself!!!"
person ends up on private property
this thread and similar threads shed light on to how many people really don't know the rules
when you see people talking about highwater marks in relation to wading on private property in Erie... you know there is a lack of education
and this is on a forum where you'd hope there'd be an educated audience
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ShutUpNFish
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Cold
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 14:28:44
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ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish
Nope, that's my son in my signature...there will most likely be a monster muskie in my avatar in the spring.
Whatever is, don't make another one of those godawful blinking things. Makes all your posts look like a pop-up ad.
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Riverbum
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 16:09:10
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"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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Loopy
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 19:40:39
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ORIGINAL: Sharpefly
The Fish Commission created this problem. There should have been more done for the landowners not just put fish in there property streams. A lot has been showed what money is brought into Erie by the steelhead fisherman. Yes all the business make money from us. What does the landowner get. 00000 He is the one that provides us a place to fish.
Here's another problem Jim. Let's spend thousands of dollars on an easement that no one can legally access without permission from landowners who may never sign an easement with the PFBC. Ever.
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Personal Responsibility.
2010/12/08 21:52:02
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ORIGINAL: Loopy
Here's another problem Jim.
Let's spend thousands of dollars on an easement that no one can legally access without permission from landowners who may never sign an easement with the PFBC. Ever.
Thats the dumas PGC's fault for not ensuring access to their easements prior to purchase.
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