Personal Responsibility.

Gentlemen, I have to take some time to point out a failing on the part of some members of this board. And I expect to get a LOT of flack about it but here goes. Recently there has been a lot of whining and moaning about the property above the Legion Hole being posted. Here's a news flash! IT HAS BEEN POSTED FOR YEARS! At least for the last 12-14. Yet the land owner has been gracious enough to allow people WHO ASK PERMISSION, in person, to use his property.
But this does not mean that if I have permission, which I have had, then everyone else automatically has permission. The gentleman who owns the property wants to actually see you and find out a little about you BEFORE he grants permission. And in some cases he says NO. It is his right as a landowner.
In the past month there have been posted signs placed along the creek, within good viewing distance of the creek bed, and they have been torn down by idiots. That's right; I called somebody idiots. Once, the signs weren't even up for two hours, and a fellow fisherman who was fishing below the signs saw the destruction happen.
In another instance, a man was caught sneaking in to the property, past posted signs, and was asked to leave by the land owner. And the miscreant threatened the land owner with physical violence. Now THAT's a really good way to keep the creek open.
So all I am saying is: be responsible for your actions. We all know the land is posted. Don't go looking for loopholes. There are none! Posted means keep OUT. Unless you have written permission to be there.
Also there is no secret group that has leased the property. There are people who have asked, in person, for fishing access. And they obey the landowners wishes. To whit: No trash, don't come on the land during the first part of deer season, don't clean, gut, or bleed fish on the property. Don't camp on the property, don't crowd the property, (if you see more than 5 cars kindly move along) and don't park where you aren't supposed to. Oh yeah, how do you know where you are supposed to park? Ding, Ding, Ding! You freeking ASK PERMISSION! DUH!
Now I know that in some cases I'm preaching to the choir. And by the landowners admission many of the worst violators have been people who are not "local". So We, who want to see the land remain open, must police our own.
So if you are fishing above the legion hole and you see someone who is heading up into the posted water, you have three choices; You can speak up, and note who the person is, you can just ignore the occurance, or you can join them figuring they can't arrest you all. Which two of the last three options will work out best for us all.
I would also like to add that there has been another lease signed along ELK, and it was signed because of fisherman indifference to the wishes of the landowner. Oh, and the person who leased the land is the same one who has other leases.
So guys, How about a little responsibility? Take some pride, and help police the fishery, or it may soon be gone. I can remember when I could walk from Folleys to the Legion Hole, and when you could fish 20 mile from the lake to I-90 and it was all lost due to irresponsible actions.
Don't pizz and moan about guides, or individuals (like me) who take the time to actually get out and meet the landowners, and ask permission. Do your own homework, get your own permission, and be happy. And NO I'm not going to tell you where to go or who to see. If it's that valuable to you that you take the time to complain. You can take the time to search and ask. AND if YOU ask, that doesn't mean that 25 of your buddies automatically have permission. Just YOU.
Thanks for taking the time to read my rant. I know it was unnecessary for many but is was imperative for a few.

Hmmm... This topic was discussed by myself about the same area at the local flyshop with some individiuals who are part of some local fishing and fly tying groups who have a different take on what's going on with the same property we're talking about here.

It is my understanding that as of late, this land owner is getting pretty tired of people trying to sneak on via tressle and even limiting the use of his land by some of the locals as well. It is my feeling that it will soon be off limtis to ALL because he seems to be growing tired of dealing with the whole situation of letting people fish and then get taken total advantage of. I would too.

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I've said it before and I'll say it again... There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for NOT knowing whose property you are on!

Ironhed

Ironhed, I do agree that pleading ignorance is no answer, but how do you expect anyone to know who's property they are on when even land surveyors don't know exactly when and where property lines are. I had an interesting situation happen w/ a friend of mine who has been living in an area, his own property for years, and wasn't aware of the exact property line, and neither was the local administrators. They had to go back into the book of records from over 100+ years ago to figure out what exactly the property lines were.

So how do you expect someone from out of state, or even locals from knowing exactly what land they are on and whose property it is. I mean I have fished probably over 60 times this steelhead season, and haven't run into any of the property owners except for the centerpin fisherman who owns the posted bank of Manchester Hole. Is there a guide or booklet that shows exactly what property is posted what is not posted how to get there, who owns the property, etc etc... not that I know of. Oh and just for reference I have read all the stream guides on fisherie, have looked through the fishing maps on the Fish commissions websites and none of these show exactly where posted property is and where open access is to the detail of, oh I am 100 feet over the property line of Joe the Plumber, better go back.

ORIGINAL: Ironhed

I've said it before and I'll say it again... There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for NOT knowing whose property you are on!

Ironhed

My thoughts exactly.... and if you truly don't know if you're allowed there, don't step foot on it.

Hand in hand to this thread...
 
 
Hunter cited for shooting deer in median of I-80

Stupid is as stupid does....  What an idiot.

I guess that could be the case with the guys you saw.  My comment was more directed to the moron hunting on I 80.  I would bet the farm there are whole bunch of laws that guy broke.

I mean according to your logic, I would compare it to, there is NO EXCUSE for not knowing every law and rule in our government state, local and federal, but I would bet a dollar you didnt know that in Pennsylvania it is ILLEGAL to tie a dollar bill to a string and pull it away from someone.

There is only one law in this situation that needs to be known and that's trespassing!

Although I think quite a few WCO's would disagree, I also think most know that it's illegal.

Did you get pinched for pulling the "dollar bill/string"-prank on someone or what?

Ironhed

I guess I need to find another line of work. Everyone's a surveyor now. 42 years of work up in smoke....WF

ORIGINAL: Riverbum

Hand in hand to this thread...


Hunter cited for shooting deer in median of I-80

ORIGINAL: Ironhed

Ironhed, I do agree that pleading ignorance is no answer, but how do you expect anyone to know who's property they are on...

No, there are no "buts"!  None.
If you don't know where a boundary is, stay well away from it.  Period.

You mentioned a lot of tools when it comes to doing your homework BUT you failed to mention the most important one...knocking on a door!

The internet is great and all but it doesn't do everything.

Ironhed

I agree completely.

As a hunter/fisher/outdoorsperson you will likely be using someone elses property for your use a considerable amount of the time. It is YOUR responsibility to know where the property lines are.

It is a shame how many tards are out there that think they think a fishing/hunting license entitles them to any property they choose.

Knowing where you are is important, but knowing exactly where the property lines are exactly is not always easy.  I hunt some land where about 5 or 6 different properties intersect.  I went out with one of the landowners to see where the property lines are.  The landowner was not able to determine exactly where his property ended and his brother's farm began.  We found an old fence that he believed was the boundary, but he was not completely sure.  We also looked to find the other property lines and were unsuccessful in finding any boundary markers.  I talked with several of the other landowners and they too were not clear to exactly where their property lines were.  The best I got was it is "somewhere around here". 

The bottom line is the landowners I talked with were OK with me hunting on their land, but I am not clear as to exactly where their land is nor where they.  In this case, it does not matter exactly on whose land I am on or where the property lines are as no one was sure who really owned what.  I am sure there are boundary markers, but finding them was nearly impossible.

There was another place I used to hunt there was a very clear property line.  There was a barbed wire fence, posted signs and the landowner who patrolled the perimeter of his property with a gun and a rather aggressive dog.  If you crossed into his property you were told in no uncertain terms you had to leave at once or you would be shot.  Needless to say, I never ventured onto that property or dealt with that guy.