Kinzua/Tionesta

Lots of people better suited to answer in detail (jolie, pghmarty, bing), but here's what I learned this year:

Kinzua: Illegal to wade upstream of the "No Wading" signs. If you get caught, be prepared to pay a fine. Park at the visitors center, walk down to the river. Pretty self explanatory from there. You can also access from the Hemlock, or hatchery side.

The water is pumping pretty well right now, particularly since they've lowered the reservoir. Slimy bottom. Wading staff and felt waders are a must, IMO. When they generate electricity, you can feel the increased water flow. At least I could. Longest 15 minutes of my life. But I'd do it again in a heartbeat. It was fun.

Like I said, lots of people better suited to give detailed, specific info. This summer was my first foray into the tailwaters. Lots of fun, just be smart and be safe.

tionesta is ok to wade dont know that id wade right by the dam but a lil down would be ok. the area from the dam down to the swimming are would be ur best bet.

double post

ORIGINAL: CU@theriver

So I'm looking for some answers about wading these two outflows.

Lots of good advice on this thread lets see what I can add.

ORIGINAL: CU@theriver
** Is it legal to wade in the Kinzua outflow?
If yes, where is a common access point to leave my vehicle?

as everyone said you can only fish below a line of three markers on the river.

First you will have to choose between the two sides of the river.  The easiest way is from RT59 out of warren, where you can park at a large visitors center.  The mentioned observation tower is on this side, it is also right "on the line" of where you can wade.  The other side is hemlock road, a small street that heads out of warren just on the north side of the glade (pennsylvania avenue) bridge.  On this side is a several parking spots, including the fishing Pier at the top of the road.  Don't wade Anywhere near the fishing pier, you are VERY visible to employees at the electric plant as well as any visiting fish wardens. 

ok,  for wading purposes I would point out that MOST of hemlock side is posted (the signs angle downstream on the hemlock side) and that access on the hemlock side is a little tricky.  On the other hand, I Don't recommend wading above the boat launch on the 59side.  Most people on the 59 side are actually heading for dixon island or lower.  The boat launch is near the downstream end of the visitors center parking lot.

Keep watch on the river when heading from this side.  right now water flow is 1800 and the "path" to dixon island is "open" from the 59.  Recently though I has swung closer to 2200.  beyond 2200 I would say that you will struggle a bit to get into fishable water, once you get to the rapids.
If the water is high, try wading from the hemlock side. its much easier to cross the little channel than to tackle the whole river coming down as riffle/rapids.

ORIGINAL: CU@theriver
Any hazards that aren't obvious such as sudden dam releases?

slippery rocks, shifting rocks, heavy current. yes.  Be careful of any rock!  I get nervous in waders when I get to bigger rocks.  if you can walk on top of the same rock it prolly has a wicked drop on one side.  look around and you'll see rocks like that ABOVE the water.

I'm a little worried about saying too much... but I feel the need to warn you about one area.  in the area I've recommended (downstream of the boat launch), there is a place with some of those rocks.  Downstream of the Dixon island Rapids, don't hug the 59side shore.  There are some big boulders along that stretch.

ORIGINAL: CU@theriver
Any other advice to someone who has not fished either area? I'm lookin to fish kinzua in the morning, hang out int the ANF and then hit Tionesta in the evening.

mmm, what to say about a morning wading in kinzua?  first be reasonable about your expectations- They have stocked thousand and thousands of small rainbow trout (with a smattering of browns).  Even throwing big rapallas, sometimes all we can connect to is those dang fingerlings.  I would think your chance of connecting to a small rainbow is MUCH higher with a little fly.  If you've read the TWer thread, you know that many fly fishermen recommend a bigger streamer to discourage the little guys. 

I would put in a little more time than what you sound like your planning.  The alleghany river is BIG and to just fish an couple hours means you've barely tried it.  Even I usually put in 3-4 hours per night.  for a wading fishermen the action starts near the rapids of dixon island and just keeps going and going.  look at the whole river on google maps to get an idea of the layout of the river.

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I'm going to add that although you've said your wading the river that there is advantages to not wading.  Without waders, much of the tailwaters opens up, because you either aren't allowed to wade (esp on t he hemlock side) or wouldn't want to.  Waders only give you access to the extreme downstream waters of the tailwaters. the rest of the tailwaters are fished from the shore.

ok this is enough to get you started.  reply with questions if you think of anything else.  I recommend looking at a satellite image of it from google, reading the tailwaters thread and scoping on even more information by searching for old posts.  You never know, maybe us "tight lipped" anglers let the cat out the bag during an old post.

sonofZ,

wow, it seems to me like it'd be real hard to get a good backcast in spots up near the wall. Good job!  the furthest up I ever tried fly fishing is the observation tower.  its definitely possible to get a backcast in there.

but you made the point.  This is a BIG river and a 40' cast doesn't reach much of the river. thats one of the very biggest issues with fly fishing here, you can reach SO much more water with a rapalla (of course, unless you're truly talented at fly casting).

anyways fly fishing between the wall and boat launch is, as SOFZ says possible but wading is really problematic.  downstream of the signs and above the boat launch there are sudden drop offs.

i know everyone on here argues the point of whats wadable at kinzua but all i can say is this , i weigh 160 lbs (float relatively easy ) and anything above 1500 cfs of discharge is too much for me to safely navigate to wherever i want to go (like across from 59 side to dixon island , when i say wadable i mean from one bank to the other so when you decide after you go up then u will find out what is your confort zone and maybe your definition of wadable means 10 feet out from shore too ......so .....

Jolie: You have to rollcast, or use a cast I was taught as a "water haul" (I've since found out there are different water haul casts, but this is what a water haul cast means to me). If you're facing the river at the wall with the water flowing from right to left, let your fly and line swing all the way downstream so that its parallel with the bank. Have your rod pointing downstream directly at your fly, with the tip a little above the water's surface. Now raise the rod and your arm up to pull most of the line off the water, NOT just raising the rod tip, keep the rod level with the river's surface but lift it up. You should have just a few feet of line and your leader still on the water. Now do a sharp haul on the line with your left hand to load the rod (put a bend in it), while bringing the rod tip up in front of you, then out where you want the line to go, just like on a forward cast. The line will follow the rod tip and go from downstream, back out into the current. If you bring the rod tip down toward the water too much on the forward part of the cast the line will follow it and pile up right in front of you. the key is using the drag of the river on the end of your fly line and the haul on the line to load the rod and generate the speed you'd normally get from having all that line in the air behind you. It sounds complicated, but its actually real simple. Life, haul, flick back out. the more weighted the fly is the more difficult this cast is. If you're standing on a clock face, facing 12, your line goes from 9 oclock to about 1 or 2. Its not graceful, and not as efficient as a backcast, but it gets the job done.

you might want to check this site. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis/uv?site_no=03012550

It gives you an hourly discharge rate. But with the rain we received today or at any other point in time after heavy rains, these charts are hard to go by due to fact that at any point they could start releasing more. Always make a mental note on how high the water is on you if you are wading. If you are constantly moving.. take a stick and put it in the ground at waters edge and if you see the water rising on the stick.. start heading to shore.. it might only be an increase of a couple hundred cfps but it could be a couple thousand.. just never know.

ORIGINAL: troutslammer

i know everyone on here argues the point of whats wadable at kinzua but all i can say is this , i weigh 160 lbs (float relatively easy ) and anything above 1500 cfs of discharge is too much for me to safely navigate to wherever i want to go (like across from 59 side to dixon island , when i say wadable i mean from one bank to the other so when you decide after you go up then u will find out what is your confort zone and maybe your definition of wadable means 10 feet out from shore too ......so .....

no there's no argument is there?

I can wade shore to shore at 2200 cfs near the bottom of the dixon island rapids.  its challenging but doable.  I'm not saying anyone can do it, and I certainly would'nt recommend to a newbe, but after a few trips you get the why and the whats about the main run at dixon island.  stay off of shiftable rocks, keep sidewides to minimize the force of the current and lean into it slightly.  I also didn't rush it and took my time to make sure I really wanted to try it.

I'm 180. so its not a matter of being heavy.
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as for your definition of wadable, what do I say?  if your in the water, your wading.  (thats what the fish cops think).  you can do that somewhere on the tailwaters all 365days of the year. IMHO, its a wierd definition. 
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but no one ever said that you could cross the dixon island rapids at 14,000.  but then again, there's more than one good spot in the tailwaters; and they change as the seasons/water levels do..... so "Wading" 10' (sissy as it sounds) just might be the difference between 10 winter walleye and none.

anyways from a liability point of view I have no idea how good a lurker/regular/visiting angler is wading.  I would never urge anyone to go to a place he didn't think he/she could handle.  you've got to be confident and careful.  I'm sure you need to add a little extra caution for episodes of rising water, although normally water doesn't rise very much (it oscillates up and down, as someone in the post said) in a short period of time.

HOWEVER, they clearly are times where they make dramatic changes in water level and you should (must) be able to get out of deeper /faster water when they do.  luckily those times are very rare. 

be safe but be confident.  beginners should test the water and in sunlight to see where they can go.  if you only can get out 10'; you're still fishing water you can't fish 10' ago.  don't be like expecting too easily go everywhere below the signs, but don't make this sound like ohiopyle (or major rapids). it isn't.

For casting with your back to a wall just make your false casts upstream and down stream.
Then cast to your spot, the fly line will follow the rod tip.....DT tip #12...

and thats one cool reason to, during higher levels to "wade" from hemlock.  that way you only have to "cross" the small backwater that forms the north side of dixon island.

it works uber. I like it.

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another person posted about sudden water changes.  The water flow does indeed change hour by hour, even during stable water outflow.  The oscilation has been pretty prominent recently.  Other times we've seen either almost no change and sometimes a 1 or 2 a day burst of water.

I don't really notice any difference in "wading"  as the water flow goes up and down. 
the thing to really watch out for is when they go from say 2,000 to 6,000 -10,000.  they can go up several thousands of cfs in an hour. 

A good resource for trying to stay informed about that is
http://wmw.lrp.usace.army.mil/current/forecast.html

it both states the reservoir water level and the forecast outflow for the next three days.   It is particularly useful in the winter and summer when they will generally keep waters levels at the winter(summer) pool.  Keep in mind that big rain events are not anticipated in the forecast...

so as an example
if this were summer and we were near the summer pool; yesterdays tropical rain event (2-3" throughout most of the watershed) could dramatically alter the planned outfall, even though they didn't give us three days notice.

ORIGINAL: Accountant

I've been the to ANF, but I've never fished in there. This and a few other threads make it seem like there are fish there, but it's a challenging environment to fish. Is my impression correct?

You are correct. The river is very humbling, but once you figure out a few patterns and locations, it can be rewarding.

Question about the river below the dam. At what temperature does turnover occur

I don't believe rivers "turnover". Turnover happens on a lake because it stratifies or has cooler water on the bottom that circulates below a middle layer called the thermocline with moderate temps. when the top warmer layer cools the water becomes heavier and mixes with the other layers causing the lake to turnover.
In rivers these layers never form as the moving water mixes constantly causing very consistent temps top to bottom.
some lakes are similar to this because the water moves through to quickly and does not form a thermocline. Tionesta lake is one of these lakes but the temps are probably not as consistent as a river top to bottom.
If there is another way to define a river turnover I'd like to learn more.

Maybe i worded my question incorrectly. At some  time in october the river does get murky from the turnover that occured in the lake. It is usually around the middle of october.
I hope someone makes a note of that this year so i know when it happens.