You used your surveys to support your claim that there was a problem with the B/D ratio before ARs and I proved you were flat out wrong.

 
Actually it was the deer that proved there was a problem with the buck/doe ratio. All I did was post the data supporting what the deer are telling the professional deer managers.
 
All you have proven is how biased and misguided your agenda is.
 

How do you explain the fact that hunters managed to kill 7 DPSM in 2G in 2003 ,but a harvest of only 2.28 DPSM kept the herd stable in 2009?

 
I already explained that. You and your cohorts reject the explanation though because it doesn’t fit what you want people to believe or support your misguided agenda.
 
The reason the deer harvests were so high in 2G in 2003 was mostly because there were a lot more deer in unit 2G from about ten years of low doe harvests being combined with about six years of above average mast crops and extremely mild winters. All of those factors resulted in many years of abnormally high fawn recruitment with little winter mortality. The result was a deer herd that exploded to levels beyond what the habitat could sustain when we got another round of harsh winters but fortunately the hunters were given the opportunity to harvest some of them before those harsh winters took their toll.
 
Since the back-to-back harsh winters from 2003-2004 and poor mast crops most years since the fawn recruitment has been lower and the deer populations have been slower to recover than during those ideal conditions years of the late 90s and 2000’s. Another problem is that all of the somewhat inaccurate hype about no deer has resulted in both lower antlerless allocations and so few hunters no one is moving any deer which makes it appear the deer numbers are lower than they really are. With fewer hunters in the unit, fewer antlerless licenses that doesn’t allow most hunters to even hunt the unit, a shorter antlerless season and some hunters refusing to shoot does they do see is it any wonder the harvests were lower in 2009. All indications are that the deer numbers are once again on the increase in unit 2G though. If hunters don’t start harvesting more of them it is only a matter of time until the next round of damaged habitat and an even greater population crash.
 
With hunters harvesting only 8% of the collared does, 8% of the yearling bucks and 28% of the collared adult bucks last year it certainly isn’t the hunter harvests keeping the population from increasing. With harvest facts of that nature it is obvious the hunters aren’t over harvesting the deer in 2G so it has to be that either the herd is increasing or the environmental conditions are still preventing an increase.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

I am with you S 10..Now to Mr. Crappie...why wouldn't you think AR was good for buck hunters unless you shoot spikes and 4pt/6pts. depending upon where you hunt..can't you understand how many bucks are not shot at because they can't count the points, where before the meat hunters would shoot at anything that had bone longer than 3 inches and were happy, this must be you..AR has led to these big bucks in the 2G and maybe other wmu's..if you don't hunt up here then this might not be the right thread to comment on antler growth and big bucks..Hunters have decreased in cameron/elk/clearfield/north for the past years after the mass murder of the deer herd in 2003..I heard 150 shots by 8am that year when brown is down started..last few years i hear 15 shots by noon and some are so far away you can hardley make out it was a shot..by 90 per cent of hunters are gone from the big woods..These bucks are older and smarter than ever before..but were they here 20 years ago...probable not, my opinion..Gary Alt made thousands of spike and 4pt hunters quit hunting, plus aging of the majority of hunters..Hunters will never have an impact on deer in this area ever again, It will be winter kill and predators..hunters do not venture more than a few hundred yards off the road..fact...I see it every year...they say why walk way back in to see "nothing" so i sit close to the road for the same result..two bad winters like rsb says put a hurting on the mountain deer, no one sees dead ones because of coyotes, they eat them all..deer are making a comeback, and our 5000 cam'pictures show many does, fawns, and many small and big bucks..they are all becoming nocturnal..i have pics of 4 collared deer..one of them a buck, which was a 6 pt. last year and a 7 pt. this year..same place as last year..

What you are going to have is a lot like Maine. Very few deer because of predators now being able to keep their numbers in check but some good ones for folks like yourself who have the time and live in the area so they can keep tabs on them. The problem is there are not enough serious hunters like yourself to keep the PGC financed so they will be forced to merge or be controlled by non-hunters. Who knows what will happen then. Hopefully I won't be around to see the results.

s-10 and wayne
 
ok so what's your point?  there are many factors as to why hunter numbers are going down, HR and AR are only 2 facets of a complex trend with an older hunting population, i believe one of the oldest if not the oldest, being cited as the chief reason because there is little recruitment of younger hunters.  so quit blaming and start solving, unless of course, your sole goal is to slap down the PGCm which by your history, seems to be your only reason for posting.

If two severe winters resulted in winter kill or poor recruitment, there were too many deer in those areas that saw an impact.   

"s-10 and wayne

ok so what's your point? there are many factors as to why hunter numbers are going down, HR and AR are only 2 facets of a complex trend with an older hunting population, i believe one of the oldest if not the oldest, being cited as the chief reason because there is little recruitment of younger hunters. so quit blaming and start solving, unless of course, your sole goal is to slap down the PGCm which by your history, seems to be your only reason for posting."

While it wasnt my reason for posting my last posts, Youre right. Id be very happy to see the unsavory element slapped down from the pgc. Because imho they are currently the number one hindrance to that hunter retention and recruitment you speak of. But just for the record, was just tossing some numbers out there, in line with the posts from Doc and others. Not really making a hard point. Just threw it out there for consideration and to keep things straight. Im not overly concerned with ONLY the numbers, as common sense needs to have a place in this discussion as well. Common sense tells me no matter the trend in numbers one way or another for a year or two.... With proper management in place and proper deer numbers, hunter friendly system & management agency etc. More hunters will exist than otherwise. If hunter numbers were declining, they might decline less or not at all with reasonable non-extreme conditions in place. If hunter numbers were increasing, theyd most likely increase more with non-extreme conditions i place. There is no "upside" to retention and recruitment by having an extreme management scheme in place. And as Eveland pointed out, there are some very unsavory reasons why this is ongoing.

"If two severe winters resulted in winter kill or poor recruitment, there were too many deer in those areas that saw an impact."

You're wrong dpms. significant winter kill...maybe. But "any" winterkill is debatable. Many northern states with very low deer densities experience significant winter kill quite often. I dont think it unreasonable to think it may occur in states such as ours in areas once in a while in extreme years to lose a few late born or other less hardy members of the herd.

Effect to recruitment in an extreme winter year?? Only to be expected. Youre simply NOT gonna have the recruitment you wouldve had in an average winter when there is two to three feet of snow that laid on the ground from Jauary to march..

non existence winter kill...are you nuts????...3 ft of snow and no feed..what do they eat to survive???....Iron hed I don't have to show you nothing..i got them and if you don't believe it too bad...i sent mikastorm pic's also and just sent jrm but he did not put them on..My opinion what happened to the deer up in Quehanna last year, they left the mountains and went to valleys because of deep snow and no feed at all..not one acorn 2 winters ago..then they slowly started to come back and its still not as good as it was 4 years ago, but pic's show more deer this year than last..how many died in the valleys, don't know..no reports..pgc would never report winter kill, they don't walk creek bottoms in spring..honestly they don't leave their vehicle..never seen one in the woods..last year and this year acorns are plentiful everywhere and if we have a mild winter, great hunting next year..Yes, i did complain last year...no deer..but they are back and that makes me happy..trail cam's last year did not pick up deer like this year in same area's..Iron hed..i will match my wall of bucks to yours anyday..

ORIGINAL: 270wbmag

non existence winter kill...are you nuts????...3 ft of snow and no feed..what do they eat to survive???....Iron hed I don't have to show you nothing..i got them and if you don't believe it too bad...i sent mikastorm pic's also and just sent jrm but he did not put them on..My opinion what happened to the deer up in Quehanna last year, they left the mountains and went to valleys because of deep snow and no feed at all..not one acorn 2 winters ago..then they slowly started to come back and its still not as good as it was 4 years ago, but pic's show more deer this year than last..how many died in the valleys, don't know..no reports..pgc would never report winter kill, they don't walk creek bottoms in spring..honestly they don't leave their vehicle..never seen one in the woods..last year and this year acorns are plentiful everywhere and if we have a mild winter, great hunting next year..Yes, i did complain last year...no deer..but they are back and that makes me happy..trail cam's last year did not pick up deer like this year in same area's..Iron hed..i will match my wall of bucks to yours anyday..

Well ,if you are happy then I am happy. <rolling eyes>

Give me another 25 years of hunting and I'll partake in your little contest.  Gimme a break and just go freakin' hunting!


Ironhed

"I respectfully disagree, Wayne. Even our bad winters are mild compared to other states and provinces within the whitetail's range."

And those states and provinces dont simply have a little effect to their recruitment rates, or very slight occaissional deer losses...States like Maine and provinces like quebec, ontario etc. for example have large portions of their deer herd die off on a pretty regular basis, even though the herd dd is very low to begin with.

"Our winterkill, if any, should be relatively non-existant."

Yes...I agree for the mostpart...and 'relatively' it is.

And also, just to go back a step, the main issue i had with your position was the statement where you cited effect to fawning as proof of overpopulation during extreme years. I do not believe that is accurate.

I got 4 great bucks on camera and 6 or 8 average bucks also.When the snow was falling at this spot it was 6 to 8 feet deep and drifts up to 12 to 14 feet.I don't know how they didn't die but they didn't.Does anybody know how they survive in these kind of conditions i'm curious.

ORIGINAL: S-10

Do you have any photos of those dozen B&C you said you know that were taken around your area. They would be nice to look at.

Even though the topic of conversation was B&C, in the back of my mind I was thinking P&Y.  I have never shot a whitetail that made B&C.  My apologies.
I do know of several(correction)B&C bucks taken around here.  Below is one of them...173"(very impressive for a main-frame 10 to boot).
I'll try and get ya a few more on my next visit to the archery shop.


Ironhed

You could be right.  I didn't score him.
The guy has several dandy bucks under his belt the last few years and he knows which end is up, if you catch my drift.
I too would probably need help myself. 
I came close(45-50yds) on a solid 160"er last year.  Although as tempting as the situation was, I won't shoot that far.  I got to study him at that distance for a good 2 minutes with 10X binos.
I usually say, "If they don't make my knees tremble, I won't shoot them."  In this case, my knees were beating the **** out of each other!
He alive and well as of last month...

Ironhed

riz, why are you so pro pgc/dcnr???? I am happy with less hunters.. and that buck hed, might go 130...i have 10 bucks better than that one on trail cam's..you guys have to understand that high elevation gets a lot more snow than lower cities..clearfield for example would have 1 inch and top of the mountain near interstate we get 2ft..same with high ground in elk/cameron county..quehanna is top of a mountain and has 50,000 acres..over 2000 ft...no snow in medix run and 3 ft up on top..thats my point..can't go on whats in butler/pittsburgh/new castle/

Whatever it scored, its an awesome buck.