S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/10 22:27:52
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Age of the hunter is the big reason the PGC and most other game agencies have given through the the years before our AR/HR for the gradual decline so it has already been factored into the equation. It has nothing to do with the ADDITIONAL decline of those calling themselves deer hunters. How come for all these years of debate you were happy with just killing your doe, didn't care about bucks, can't eat the horns, don't go where they are, etc, etc. Now, you get a chance to hunt some property where you finally have a realistic chance for a good buck and the real Doc "the buck hunter" emerges. Loss of deer hunters above the normal gradual loss of hunters has nothing to do with age but everything to do with lack of opportunity for success as you yourself have proved.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/10 22:44:57
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You're making WAY TOO MUCH out of the chance for a buck for me ... I'll go there the first morning IF I get a doe in October.. no doe then back to the hemlocks for a doe on Monday morning... and Clear creek Tuesday for the other one.. no buck unless one happens along.. I'll have to walk a total of a hundred yards IF I hunt the posted ground.. all flat ... sure it would be nice to get a buck.. but it is NOT my #1 goal for 2010.. it's to shoot two deer... what ever sex.. The only thing I have proved (IMHO) is another reason the antler harvest is lower..... I do not target bucks anymore and don't go where I should to hunt them.. I rely on a strange one just happening by one of these opening mornings... I'm still hunting at 65 just not worried about getting a buck...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/10 22:47:43
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deerfly 
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 08:03:06
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The only thing I have proved (IMHO) is another reason the antler harvest is lower. That is not true. The fact that some hunters don't specifically target bucks has nothing to do with the decrease in the buck harvest ,since we are still harvesting 80% of our legal PS buck. That means there are still enough buck hunters to kill all the legal buck that area available on a sustainable basis. I can't understand why you and DPSM are so reluctant to admit that HR and ARs are responsible for the decrease in the buck harvest,when it is just common sense that a smaller over wintering herd will produce a smaller buck harvest ,unless breeding rates and recruitment increase significantly.
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dpms
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 08:22:45
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
I can't understand why you and DPSM are so reluctant to admit that HR and ARs are responsible for the decrease in the buck harvest,when it is just common sense that a smaller over wintering herd will produce a smaller buck harvest ,unless breeding rates and recruitment increase significantly.
You are mischaracterizing my previous comments, Deerfly. I have never said that AR/HR have not contributed to decreased buck harvests. They have, the question is by how much and what other factors are major players.
My rifle is a black rifle
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World Famous
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 08:47:10
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Can shoot what ain't there. If the herd is down 40%, how many other factors are needed to make a theory. Don't take a mathematical genius to work that one out. Come on , get real. All the other BS is just smoke.....WF
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DarDys
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 09:44:07
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
sorry just can't accept that as the #1 reason... but as always... to each his own
1 - age
2 - economy
3 - moving out of Pa
4 - then maybe unhappy hunters
Doc, Those would all be good reasons for not buying a LICENSE at all. Now, since the number of DEER HUNTERS has declined at twice the rate of LICENSE buyers, you need to separate the two, what would be the reasons that one would still buy a LICENSE, but stop hunting DEER?
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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deerfly
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 10:42:31
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They have, the question is by how much and what other factors are major players.
There are no other major factors since the hunters that remain are still harvesting enough deer in the vast majority of WMUs to keep the herd stable or reduce it even more.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 11:15:42
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Maybe for the same reason I have continued to buy an archery stamp even though I have not archery hunted for years now.. too support the PGC.... 
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DarDys
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 18:46:51
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Maybe for the same reason I have continued to buy an archery stamp even though I have not archery hunted for years now..
too support the PGC....
Doc, You better get someone to tighten up that loose screw or it may cause you problems down the road. 
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 20:55:00
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Do I even dare say that I bought a bear license last year and hunted a total of 1.5 hours ????? I sat on a friend's camp porch, he had been seeing a bear in his "yard"...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/11 20:58:08
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rollcaster
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/11 21:41:13
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PGC loves people like you doc. You believe everything they say and they dont have to pay you to spread their ****.
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SilverKype
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 11:28:11
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Simple--- there is a gradual loss of hunters nationwide due to less free time, population becoming more urban, more activities to choose from, anti hunting sentiment being taught in schools, loss of land to access and a number of other reasons. There is an additional loss of DEER HUNTERS in Pennsylvania according to the PGC and this loss coorelated with the start of AR/HR. Now-- either the PGC is wrong about the EXCESSIVE loss of DEER HUNTERS which would make their claims of hunter % success inflated or the implementation of AR/HR caused the loss as it is the only variable not accounted for in the general nationwide gradual decrease. ------The deer hunter numbers are in historical PGC data given as a percentage and it's the use of general sales numbers that is moot in a deer discussion although I see why both you and the PGC might try to use it to muddy the water. It's the old saying, Figures don't lie but---------------the PGC can figure.
I'll tell you what is simple. The logic of this.. you just don't want to follow it because it puts a hole in your theory. If less deer causes less people to hunt then more deer would cause more hunters, but it doesn't. Now fill that hole with mud. 
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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SilverKype
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 11:29:53
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
At this point, the 23% is deerfly's numbers. I have not seen it. I posted general sales because we were talking about recruitment and so were you. Unless you have recruitment numbers of deer hunters, you're point is moot.
I never claimed that increased deer numbers would result in an increase in the number of hunters No, but you did claim less deer are causing less people to hunt.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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deerfly
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 12:01:07
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Yes ,and the data I provided supports that claim and no one has provided anything to refute it.
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SilverKype
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 12:13:12
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So I guess you're saying less deer means less hunters but more deer does not mean more hunters.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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deerfly
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 12:59:38
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That may or may not be true. The rate of the decrease in the number of deer hunters has slowed significantly since 2007 and general license sales actually increased in 2008, so we may reach a point where ,with increasing deer numbers, the recruitment of new deer hunters offset the loss from those that quit and the number of deer hunters might increase.
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 13:31:28
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There is no doubt more hunters would exist at any given singular point in time if it were not for such extreme deer plan and herd reduction in place. Due to other factors that do exist, im not necessarily saying there would be record numbers, but more than there would be without the extremes in place that are currently. Not directly at anyone in particular, but if anyone who would think extremes that cause the pa hunters to become so disgusted that we have the deer wars, lawsuits, fee increase denials, forced audits, legislators being inundated with complaints etc... would have absolutely NO effect on hunter recruitment or retention, imho, is not thinking clearly or attempting to do a pizz poor job of damage control.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/13 13:37:10
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 14:25:27
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cause the pa hunters to become so disgusted that we have the deer wars, lawsuits, fee increase denials, forced audits, legislators being inundated with complaints etc... would have absolutely NO effect on hunter recruitment or retention, imho, is not thinking clearly or attempting to do a pizz poor job of damage control. There have been deer hunters complaining and becoming disgusted about deer hunting and the PGC since th 1950s, and it never stopped.... I do not, for one minute, think that the majority of Pa deer hunters fit in any of those "stero types" you posted about... I'll give you MANY hunters but not the majority.. there is no facts to support any of your claims about who is in the majority.. just who you think the majority is that agrees with you... Internet message boards are the last place to look for any majority of the wholes.... there are still many many many deer hunters or hunters in general that do not post or reply to message boards... this one is a good exapmle.. count how many people POST or REPLY to any deer, PGC, AR, HR topics here.... lots of hits but maybe 15 guys post or reply to those topics... and return every time something is added.. so there is not even a way to get the majority of the folks who are members or vist here... we'd get what maybe 50 people think of several thousand members that hunt deer..... A current poll at huntingpa still show 75% in favor of some form of ARs for example...
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 15:12:05
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According to the QDMA 2009 report, from 1985 to 2005 overall hunter numbers fell 10% nationwide but big game hunters fell only 5%. from 2001 to 2006 big game hunters numbers fell only 2% nationwide. EXCEPT IN PA where deer hunter numbers reversed that trend and fell over twice as fast as overall hunter numbers since 2001 according to the PGC data. Question- What happened since 2000 that would have caused that drop?
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 16:05:30
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"There have been deer hunters complaining and becoming disgusted about deer hunting and the PGC since th 1950s, and it never stopped...." Nothing anywhere near the same level. Not even in the same stratosphere.
Its pretty much common knowledge as i see it. And there has never been a higher level of dissent here, and i have never seen anything even close in other states. We've had around a decades worth of a ton of pizzed off hunters, and even WMI mentioned it as being noteworthy as something they hadnt seen before. "there are still many many many deer hunters or hunters in general that do not post or reply to message boards..." Yes, and they dont support the extent of hr either. In fact, id say an even lesser percentage support it that dont use message boards. On these message boards you have more people representing other agendas compared to the hunters most of us know or speak to from day to day. One website had a poll and around 70%+ did not support the extent of hr. But on that poll there were at least 2 known pgc employees voting and one dcnr guy, and a us forestry employee...and those were just the known ones. (and wouldve been a helluva lot more if it were on hpa)
Anyway, on the message boards the agencies & environmentalists represented a larger portion of the vote, then they would off of the internet and still it came as 70% against. The percentage would be much higher probably 80-90%+ not supporting of the hr in reality.
And as for hpa, if you wanna find out what nonhunting enviros, pgc & dcnr think its a fine site to visit. If you want uncensored hunter representative opinions on deer management issues, better look elsewhere. Their heavy handed censorship, damage control and bias is legendary.  "A current poll at huntingpa still show 75% in favor of some form of ARs for example..." Ar isnt what most have a problem with imho. Many do. But i dont think most...but i could be mistaken. But one thing i can state with 100% confidence, is that an overwhelming majority do not support the ridiculous excessive REDUCTION across the board.
...Just for the record, Doc, i DO support ar.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/13 16:21:05
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 16:17:49
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What happened since 2000 that would have caused that drop?
guys that were in good health and very active and in their 50s are now in their 60s....
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 16:22:46
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That answer doesnt address why DEER hunting has been dropping and not the other forms by as large a proportion. The answer is obvious. .....Those guys in their 60's dont support the failed deer plan any more than the guys in their 50's, 40's, 30's, 20's, or teens.. lol.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/13 16:24:53
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 16:40:28
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If anyone EVER gets a chance === there is a Pa Game News special issue dated... SEPTEMBER 1950.... I carry it with me all the time at the club and other outings/meeting.... you obviously have never seen or read it or you could not say what you just said.. For example... I'll type this all ... remember this is on page 36 and 37 and was written in 1950.....
There are 10 ways Pennsylvanians could benefit from a reduction of the numbers in the wintering herd and an annual, sustained harvest of both sexes of deer..
1...an increased amount of recreation through a greater annual harvest
2...and improvement in the size, vigor,and trophy qualties of the deer
3...a more favorable sex ratio and increased reproduction.
4...a decrease in the number of spike bucks and a consequent increase in the number of antlered deer with three or more points
5...a near elimination of winter morality resulting from malnutrition
6... a decrease in the undesirable effects of over-browsing upon forest reproduction and succession
7...a slowing of the rate at which the deer range is being ruined by overbrowsing and the maintenance of a higher carrying capacity..
8...a lessening of the amount of crop damage and the number of deer killed for damage
9...an increase of other forest game species, particularly cottontail rabbits, varying hares,and ruffed grouse which are adversely affected by the over-browsing condition of the forest
10...a better relationship between the sportsmen of the state, the game commission, and the landowners who are suffering deer damage...
Sounds like it could have been written last week instead of 1950s..... so again === folks have complained about deer and the PGC since the beginning.... it's just some of those complaining now have the internet to complain on....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/13 16:41:19
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 16:58:56
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If you think being successful today while deer hunting is as easy as squirrel hunting or thrilling as spring gobbler .. I don't know what to say.. deer hunting for older guys is HARD work.. especially with a smaller herd in many areas...
requiring more scouting and longer walks to get to the "hot spots"..
many no longer can or feel safe climbing into trees etc etc...
You can believe some survey of a small number of hunters and throw that around as much as you want..
I personally have NOT heard one person say to me..
I quit deer hunting because there are no deer.
sorry == but that's the God's honest truth.. health and age is what I hear ...
where's the FACTS (not just numbers) about why hunters quite HUNTING DEER.... so XX thousand quit.. I want to see why they said they quit.. how many said this, how many said that, ... then and only then can we say fro certain why folks stopped hunting deer...
I guess the survey left that important question out... thus allowing folks to speculate as to why they think people quit deer hunting but still buy a general license...
For me ...the deer hunters are getting older and as I said it will contiune to drop 1-3% more every year for the next 5 or 6 years.. no matter how many deer there are or what the PGC does...
In another 10-15 years you young guys will have the woods to yourselves...
with about 300-400,000 hunters state wide..
if the anti-hunters (tourist lovers) do not stop hunting altogether by then.. ??
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 17:45:30
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I see nothing other than similarity of very basic concepts in the article you cite.
And if you really want to get into it, if there were extreme things in play in the 50's, as there is now, the presence of latham at pgc pretty much explained it.
An extremist was influencing management, who was so extreme he was fired from the game commission...and you cannot deny it, its well documented.
Now, as the Dr. Eveland clips have stated, his SON is playing a role in rallying the environmentalist troops. So yeah, i guess one could only EXPECT some similarity. You have only reinforced the case that ACSL has made on the subject.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/13 18:11:40
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 17:51:45
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"You can believe some survey of a small number of hunters and throw that around as much as you want.. " No small survey. Its common knowledge. The product of MANY small surveys, of speaking with MANY people and using a little common sense to realize when so obvsiously very few support something. "I personally have NOT heard one person say to me.. I quit deer hunting because there are no deer." Rod Schoener outdoor writer for several newspapers had a column just yesterday where he said he is contemplating quitting, very soon if things do not improve.
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deerfly
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 18:31:08
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
If anyone EVER gets a chance === there is a Pa Game News special issue dated...
SEPTEMBER 1950....
I carry it with me all the time at the club and other outings/meeting....
you obviously have never seen or read it or you could not say what you just said..
For example... I'll type this all ... remember this is on page 36 and 37 and was written in 1950.....
There are 10 ways Pennsylvanians could benefit from a reduction of the numbers in the wintering herd and an annual, sustained harvest of both sexes of deer..
1...an increased amount of recreation through a greater annual harvest
2...and improvement in the size, vigor,and trophy qualties of the deer
3...a more favorable sex ratio and increased reproduction.
4...a decrease in the number of spike bucks and a consequent increase in the number of antlered deer with three or more points
5...a near elimination of winter morality resulting from malnutrition
6... a decrease in the undesirable effects of over-browsing upon forest reproduction and succession
7...a slowing of the rate at which the deer range is being ruined by overbrowsing and the maintenance of a higher carrying capacity..
8...a lessening of the amount of crop damage and the number of deer killed for damage
9...an increase of other forest game species, particularly cottontail rabbits, varying hares,and ruffed grouse which are adversely affected by the over-browsing condition of the forest
10...a better relationship between the sportsmen of the state, the game commission, and the landowners who are suffering deer damage...
Sounds like it could have been written last week instead of 1950s.....
so again === folks have complained about deer and the PGC since the beginning....
it's just some of those complaining now have the internet to complain on....
Do you have any idea what happened after all the dire warnings by the pGC experts at that time? Obviously not, or you won't have posted that. In 1950 the herd in the NC counties was at around 18 DPSM and based on what you quoted it appears the experts wanted to keep it at that level or reduce even more. But the deer didn't agree with the experts and as a result the herd increased to around 50 DPSM in 1975. During the same period the amount of forested acreage in the state continued to increase as did the buck harvests. So the experts were wrong in 1950 just as they were wrong in 2000!!
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 20:03:18
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BULL... study the history for this area..... hunters started whining about shooting too many antlerless and wanted the tags stopped or cut back.. politics entered and the tags were cut for this area so the herd took off. getting tags and not using them and burning them was the thing even back then ... and EVERYONE was on the shoot a doe and kill three for next year band wagon... that's basically where and when that idea got its start.. I can post articles for every decade where hunters are complaining about not enough deer... If you think it is just something that has happened as a result of HR you're "nuts" .. there have been the whiners and complainers since who knows when... probably started with disgruntled Indian deer hunters ,,,,
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/13 20:04:32
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 20:17:54
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In 1950 the herd in the NC counties was at around 18 DPSM another page of history for the N/C.. from a letter dated March 30, 1950...
Below is a summary of our findings of deer conditions in Potter County, Pleasant Valley Township, State Game Lands #59.
We checked two miles of stream in Fish Hollow. In these two miles on March 27th and 28th we found 26 dead and dying deer.
WOW == and you say there was only 18DPSM in the N/C in the 50s and they found 26 in just a two mile stretch ???? I'm not buying that 18DPSM.....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/13 20:18:56
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deerfly
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/13 20:56:12
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You are free to believe whatever you want, but the facts are that despite the warnings by the experts in 1950 the buck harvest increased from 23k in 1950 to 72K in 1975 and during the same period the amount of forested habitat increased instead of decreasing.
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