DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 17:27:33
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Danesdad----- The PGC's purpose has always been to protect the states wildlife, both game and non-game from harm as well as the habitat. The so called New mission statement is nothing different EXCEPT it denoted the official beginning of the PGC changing their priorties to the non-game birds and animals. It is merely a reflection of the enviromental movement to promote non-comsuptive used of the states wildlife resources. Pick up some old game news magazines and you can follow the change in priorties over the last couple decades. Interesting that they chose to purge most of their past history and the events of HR/AR but some can still be found on the net and especially in the old game news mgazines.
Do you think that the non comsumptive uses of the states wildlife resources can dovetail with hunting?
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DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 17:38:06
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Danesdad----You questioned why the PGC would want to have funding from outside the sportsmen as it would allow other interests to dictate how the PGC is run. How do you explain this other than trying to force sportsmen out of the picture.--------------------------------------- ----Apr 29GAME COMMISSION SUPPORTS REP. LEVDANSKY’S FUNDING PROPOSAL
Pennsylvania Game Commission Deputy Executive Director Michael W. Schmit today offered testimony on behalf of the agency before the House Finance Committee in support House Bill 1676 to provide for an alternative funding stream for agency operations. Rep. David Levdansky (D-Allegheny) sponsored HB 1676, and serves as House Finance Committee chairman.
Original post by FWC Fishing and Boating News
No I realize that they would want alternate funding so that they wouldn't have to be begging for license increases every couple of years. I believe that it is we, as hunters, that fear getting forced out. I believe that , for example, taking money from the general fund to run the PGC might allow the legislature more hands on control of PGC policy. I do not think that would be good for hunters. But it seems like the PGC isn't as worried about it as hunters seem to be. Now maybe they dont care or maybe they believe that it would still be business as usual. I think that the PGC supports Rep. Levdanskys funding proposal because it would give them an influx of cash. Were there some conditions attached to that funding? I dont know much about it. If there were conditions, maybe I'd be leery of the motives at work here.
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 18:13:11
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This may help convince you who is running things at the PGC even if seeing our money going for tweety birds doesn't. This is taken from a older article in the Audubom magazine. land trust means timber industry
No state had managed its deer more abominably than Pennsylvania, but now it's leading the way. Backed by the Pennsylvania Habitat Alliance-- a coalition of conservation, sportsmen's, and land trust groups put together by Pennsylvania Audubon and its partners--the state game commission is allowing and urging hunters to shoot more deer, especially does. If the herd is reduced to carrying capacity, deer will be bigger and healthier. Ruined range that can't support deer now will be able to do so, and there will be far more habitat for other wildlife, including other game species. "The commission has finally seen the light," comments Pennsylvania Audubon's director, Cindy
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DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 19:18:51
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I'll say this, that quote from Pennsylvanias Audubon director is a little worrisome.
S-10, I know you are not a kid so I assume you remember how deer hunting used to be. By that I mean, you would look forward to the first day of rifle. You would go out on that day and see no less than ten and sometimes upwards of 40 or 50 deer on that day. Granted, you weren't seeing 40-50 different deer (well maybe, but probably you saw at least some deer repeatedly). But nearly every one was antlerless. Maybe you got lucky and one of those deer was a buck and you shot it no matter what the antler size. Because, if you passed on it, you knew a guy over the next hill would shoot it. Do you really believe that was how it should be? I'm not even asking biologically or scientifically. Do you believe that 99% of the deer out there should be antlerless?
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 20:51:21
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Danes--- I am 68 very soon and have killed a branch antlered buck every year in Pennsylvania except two and those years I was hunting a particular buck. My lifetime average is passing up 6-7 bucks for every one I shot. 99% of the deer were never anterless, it's just that when doe followed buck season you would see the same doe over and over again throughout the 2 week buck season which made it appear that way. As has been said before the buck doe ratio was never as far out of whack as we were told. I have had my own AR for several decades but have the skill and spent the time necessary to be successful. Good bucks were always out there and the record books prove it. The Pennsylvania Audubon, and timber industry pushed this HR through and want public funding to sideline the hunters, pushed to have the commissioners chosen fron non hunters, pushed to have the mission statement changed so they could have ecosystem management rather than managing game lands for hunters, pushed for the merger of the PGC and have their fingers in most areas of the PGC. Hunting is a dying sport and they are trying to speed up the process because in the enviromentalists view an ecosystem is where all wildlife lives off each other and man the hunter isn't necessary or desirable. Everything I have said is documented by the way.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:04:06
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Here's the entire quote ==== No state had managed its deer more abominably than Pennsylvania, but now it's leading the way. Backed by the Pennsylvania Habitat Alliance-- a coalition of conservation, sportsmen's, and land trust groups put together by Pennsylvania Audubon and its partners--the state game commission is allowing and urging hunters to shoot more deer, especially does. If the herd is reduced to carrying capacity, deer will be bigger and healthier. Ruined range that can't support deer now will be able to do so, and there will be far more habitat for other wildlife, including other game species. "The commission has finally seen the light," comments Pennsylvania Audubon's director, Cindy Dunn. "This is precedent-setting. We think Pennsylvania can become a national model, where the hunter's role changes from resource taker to provider of an environmental and ecological service." Here we go again.. I hate to do it.. but feel I must... once again S-10 has posted old outdated material... and not mentioned how old the stuff is ----that quote came from the audubon magazine dated MARCH 2002... over 8 years ago --- here's a link to the entire article... http://www.audubonmagazine.org/incite/incite0203.html
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 21:07:59
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:13:44
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All you did was prove to any doubters that the Audubon was pushing this herd reduction from the start Doc. Thanks BTW-- If you read my post I said it was an old article but it shows some of the history of the Audubon trying to influence the PGC. The PGC purged most of the information relating to the history of AR/HR but they couldn't get rid of it all. I thought you would be spotting for that big buck now that you have got your excitement back being allowed to hunt on posted property and all. 
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:18:19
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BTW--thanks for highlighting where they want the hunter to merely be providing the hunting service as long as it is needed. Your doing a better job of proving my claims than I am. Thanks again. 
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DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:18:30
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Back in those days I NEVER saw 6-7 bucks in a year. I either shot the first one I saw, or I didn't see any. Maybe I didn't hunt in the right spots. 99% of the deer I saw were antlerless. Not necessarily does, but antlerless. I have no doubt some of them were button bucks. Passing up a buck then was considered insane because if you didn't shoot it, the next guy 100 yards down the line shot it. It wasn't gonna live until the next year either way. I dont believe that the ratio can ever get any worse than about 6-8 to 1. What was missing was bucks older than 1.5 years. Yeah, there were some around, and some were killed, mostly by law of averages (if there are enough hunters on a piece of ground, good chance one of them is gonna kill a nice one). But, as a percentage of the overall population, mature bucks were under represented. Were good bucks always out there, as you say? Probably they were but there were not as many as their could be.
As far as HR goes, believe me, I dont enjoy sitting in the woods and seeing nothing. And, truthfully, the woods look relatively the same to me now as they did then. A bunch of mature trees with little middle level or understory growth and a carpet of ferns. So, I cant tell if it's doing the forest any good. To me the best thing to improve the forest is to make selective clearcuts. If the forest isn't aged evenly, I think it will support more deer than a mature stand would. I think they need to be diverse in age. At the same time, a doe tastes as good as a buck and I cant eat antlers, so I'll shoot a doe if it's legal to do so. Believe me, I am ZERO threat to the deer population.
Hunting is a dying sport and eventually, it will die out (or be DRASTICALLY reduced) just based on changes in society. I dont think anything cant prevent that.
Do you think Alt was the point man for the change in philosophy for the PGC? If so, you should be happy he was run out.
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DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:24:37
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"This is precedent-setting. We think Pennsylvania can become a national model, where the hunter's role changes from resource taker to provider of an environmental and ecological service."
That part of the quote does change the feel of it a bit. I'm not certain the age of the quote matters (Doc, are you saying the PGC is going in a different direction now than they were in 2002?)' but it seems like the last part is intended to show that hunters are not supposed to be cut out of the loop. That said, I dont trust anyone from Audubon.
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:39:02
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Alt was the man hired to sell the plan and promised a better job if the merger occured but it wasn't his plan. IMHO the plan is just part of the overall enviromentalist plan of making rural Pennsylvania the nature lovers playground and wildlife watching taking the place of hunting. Right now the Audubon likes it because the PGC is spending our money making habitat and viewing stations for their bird watching and the timber industry likes it because it saves a few trees and they don't have to spend as much money on better forestry practices. If it wasn't Alt it would have been someone else. What they did was right out of the management textbook when effecting a drastic change in business or industry. Hire or promote someone-- pay him well---he makes the change---he leaves---tell the workers he was a basterd but all we can do is forget the past and move on. How about it Dardys, sound familiar.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:55:08
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as usual we both read the same thing and come away with a different understanding of what we read....
I understand the article as meaning changing the role of a deer hunter from just a person who enjoys shoooting deer for sport, to a person that supports and understands his or her role as a provider of a servcie (controlling deer populations) for the good of the enviroment and habitat for all wildlife.. not just a sport of killing wildlife for self-gratification... or sport alone.
as always .... to each his own.......
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 21:58:53
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Alt was the man hired to sell the plan and promised a better job if the merger occured but it wasn't his plan Once again YOUR opinion, you can not provide one bit of proof of that accusation....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 22:04:57
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:02:17
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the PGC is spending our money making habitat and viewing stations for their bird watching where are these at and where is it written that this is true ????? and please share just how much they have spent on these projects.. I can' find it anywhere ?????
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 22:03:21
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:09:09
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Remember, when the service is no longer needed then we are no longer needed. As a legitimate sport (as it used to be called)it would always be there. Now with the herd reduced to where already in some areas predators can keep the population in control and gonocon for the urban areas you and I are not so old that we may very well see the day hunters(as a service provider) and we gave up being a (legitmate sporting activity without a whimper)are no longer needed. Don't forget that most Audubon members are not exactly in favor of hunting or hunters and they partner with much more radical groups than they are themslves.
post edited by S-10 - 2010/09/03 22:10:02
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:14:28
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Doc, you know it's true, we have discussed it before and there has been photos of the bird viewing stations posted on this site. Just read their projects on the PGC website. You know better than to try that BS.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:18:28
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Don't forget that most Audubon members are not exactly in favor of hunting or hunters and they partner with much more radical groups than they are themselves Many hunters partner with radical groups too .. so I'm afraid of them too !!!!! Even that allegheny sportsmen organization mentioned.. I see they are TOTALLY against the program Pittsburgh had about buying back guns to get them off the street... now that seems radical to me.. I thought it was a good idea... but again to each his own.... and I am not aware of any published percentages about how just many Audubon members are not in favor of hunting or hunters .. I'm not totally defending them --- just pointing out most organizations or groups have some radicals components in them in someone's opinion..
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 22:24:20
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:23:44
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NO... definitely NO.. I do not remember you showing anything about the PGC building bird viewing stations.. I do remember me talking about how many of the deer exclosures around here (which were created to show deer inpact) were actually becoming a place for many songbirds to nest and return to this area and I posted photos of some bird nests... I have also posted photos of the bluebird boxes the PGC places around food plots... but I never claimed they were building bird viewing stations....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 22:25:30
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DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:29:01
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
as usual we both read the same thing and come away with a different understanding of what we read....
I understand the article as meaning changing the role of a deer hunter from just a person who enjoys shoooting deer for sport, to a person that supports and understands his or her role as a provider of a servcie (controlling deer populations) for the good of the enviroment and habitat for all wildlife.. not just a sport of killing wildlife for self-gratification... or sport alone.
as always .... to each his own.......
Maybe it's a glass is half empty versus the glass is half full kind of thing.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:30:45
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I did find this on the PGC website... but it does not say a thing about the PGC funding ==
Pennsylvania is the keystone state for birdwatching during seasonal bird migration. With more than 400 species of birds documented in the state, including 186 breeding species of birds, a visitor to Pennsylvania will find year round opportunity to engage in birdwatching.
By highlighting sites, trails, and scenic drives, the Susquehanna River Birding and Wildlife Trail guide and this website introduce you to the many natural wonders found in Pennsylvania — from old growth forests to lush wetlands to vast grasslands.
The Susquehanna River Birding and Wildlife Trail Guide
Developed by Audubon Pennsylvania, this guide includes over 200 locations in 39 counties that afford ample opportunity to view birds and other wildlife. County maps, tourism information, and birdwatching tips make this a valuable resource for outdoor enthusiasts.
This website includes an interactive trail guide that features a searchable database for all 218 locations in the guide. Site descriptions, amenities, directions, and contact information are all included. To order a copy of the Susquehanna River Birding and Wildlife Trail guide to accompany you during your travels, send a $9.00 check, payable to "Audubon Pennsylvania-Bird Trail" to:
Audubon Pennsylvania - Dept. 064
100 Wildwood Way
Harrisburg, PA 17110
Bulk orders (10 guides or more) are $5.00 each. For birdwatchers on your gift list, a $13.00 gift packet is available which includes a copy of the Birding Trail guide, an Audubon static sticker, a logo magnet and pencil, and gift card.
Happy wildlife watching!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 22:31:10
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DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:31:11
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Alt was the man hired to sell the plan and promised a better job if the merger occured but it wasn't his plan. IMHO the plan is just part of the overall enviromentalist plan of making rural Pennsylvania the nature lovers playground and wildlife watching taking the place of hunting. Right now the Audubon likes it because the PGC is spending our money making habitat and viewing stations for their bird watching and the timber industry likes it because it saves a few trees and they don't have to spend as much money on better forestry practices. If it wasn't Alt it would have been someone else. What they did was right out of the management textbook when effecting a drastic change in business or industry. Hire or promote someone-- pay him well---he makes the change---he leaves---tell the workers he was a basterd but all we can do is forget the past and move on. How about it Dardys, sound familiar.
I have seen this exact tactic in the workplace. We called that guy the axe man.
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:33:58
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audubon.... Harmless birdwatchers or extremists with agendas? Read a few of their incite periodicals. Heres a fine example: AUDUBON INCITE The link pretty much shows their feelings about hunters, their thoughts on hero Gary Alt, and hinting at their "influence" on pas deer management. Also speaks of alternate funding. Pretty good piece. I think it shows the organization for exactly what they are. There are also other articles.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 22:37:08
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:35:06
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Where did I claim "you" said they were building stations. I said you know that it is true, that we discussed it before, and that someone(i don't remember who) posted photos of one the last time you denied their existance. They even have a website on bird watching if you can get through their enterprise portal to find it.I think it was the same thread when you claimed they didn't allow horseback riding or snowmobiling on the game lands until we proved you wrong. Having one of those senior moments again 
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:39:16
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There is also a large bird watching pavillion that was erected on gamelands 223 in Greene County near Garards Fort.
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S-10
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:42:51
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That's all for me.---have a early date with a deer trail. nite
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 22:45:53
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 IF you look just to the left of the center of the structure, and just over the top of the railing, you can see the back sides of the bird ID charts.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 22:48:07
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 23:03:37
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You may be right, I'll take your word it is there on SGL 223.. I searched but can not find who paid for it... and do you really really believe a couple structures like that cost that much money to build ??? enough to claim the PGC is butt kissing the Audubun for bird viewing stations like that.. to me that is a hilarious thought!!!!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 23:05:55
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DanesDad
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 23:03:56
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ORIGINAL: S-10
That's all for me.---have a early date with a deer trail. nite
dont spook em.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 23:05:01
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That's all for me.---have a early date with a deer trail. nite sound like an idea to me ---- another work day tommorrow with a holiday week-end.. BUSY.. BUSY BUSY......
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wayne c
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RE: For All You Complaining about the Deer =====
2010/09/03 23:18:53
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"You may be right, I'll take your word it is there on SGL 223.. I searched but can not find who paid for it..." I frankly dont care who paid for it. It doesnt belong on a Pa *GAME* lands. "enough to claim the PGC is butt kissing the Audubun for bird viewing stations like that.. to me that is a hilarious thought!!!!" Audubon doesnt have to butt kiss for anything. Theyve been helping call the shots since day one. With the deer plan. With gamelands usage having a say on ad hoc advisory committee in the past, as well as designating areas as special bird areas that overlap gamelands & thereby designate how that lands habitat will be utilized. Im not gonna convince you Doc, ive written that notion off a long time ago. But i wanted to point out my position was NOT that audubon conservancy groups etc were a bunch of pgc butt kissers. When theyve had their people in such strategic positions as has been the case, They didnt need to kiss anyones butts to get things done at pgc. In many cases THEY WERE/ARE pgc, and to an even larger extent dcnr. I believe one of the videos deerfly posted says a little bit about SOME of this, but of course a few minute video cant even begin to cover it.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 23:20:34
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