ORIGINAL: wayne c

"I'd love to....nothing was ever in my system. And I didn't intend to get you so fired up...and if you weren't fired up, maybe it just seemed like it."

Maybe things just arent coming across clearly in text, as they do in spoken word in person. Thats a common problem with the internet. Im sitting here just about finishing up a workout listening to Hendrix and other classic rock tunes, sippin' an ice tea chattin' on a message board all at the same time. Im not hot under the collar about anything. lol. Not even luke-warm. Lifes good.

Same here. Keep fighting the good fight. The funny thing is, I dont think your position is wrong, I just dont agree with how you arrive at it.

"Managing wildlife and its habitat for current and future generations."

S-10...based on this statement from the PGC website, I believe that HR/AR is the PGCs attempt to fulfill this stated goal. That statement is what supports my belief. Doc stated that none of the people he talked to in the PGC were in favor of the merger. Based on this, it seems unlikely to me that the way the PGC is managing deer is an attempt to obtain alternate funding through a merger or anything else. I didn't get on nherer to debate. I was just trying to understand your position. And if you look back, what you will see is not a lot of facts from you but a lot of "if you do your research" statements by you. That really doesn't support anything. Since you were vague on this research that I should be doing ( as opposed to quoting your exact sources or even quoting them directly in your posts) mostly what I've learned about your position is,if I do enough reading, I might ot might not come to the same conclusions as you have. If that's what you have then maybe I've gotten the understanding of your position that I sought. But I doubt it's the same understanding you are trying to convince me of.

I'm out too, I gotta go hang stands in the morning. You cats have a good night.

ORIGINAL: DanesDad

"Managing wildlife and its habitat for current and future generations."


OK, as I stated earlier, this statement is on the homepage of the PGCs website. Is this not a fact? If this IS their mission, how does managing things to produce the MAXIMUM number of deer, as they did before AR/HR jibe with this statement? Or do you not believe that prior to AR/HR that the were producing as many deer as possible?

 
I get it that they are charged with managing all wildlife.  I also get it that when dealing with customers, and we as license buyers are their customers, that not all are treated equally.  In a business, which the PGC obviously is not (they are not alone in this as many government agencies don't follow a business model), you take care of your biggest and most important customers first and best.  As the degree of business declines, so does the amount of attention and service.
 
Deer hunters are by far the biggest customers of the PGC, perhaps by 1000X of the next biggest customer.  They need to be treated as such.
 
That is not to say, "don't service the other customers," but rather take care of the customer that is buying the materials to build a 5,000 square foot house before and better than the customer that comes in to buy a can of spray paint and use the restroom for free.

Apparently the Pa Farm Bureau doesn't represent all the farmers.

what organization do you know of that represents 100% of the membership...
I know of no single topic that if presented to 50 people all 50 will agree on...

Most organizations do or at least should represent the majority of their membership.
so the Pa Farm Bureau (IMHO) does represent all their members and they present the opinion of the majority of the membership on any given topic ... and just like any deer subject there are folks on both sides of the topic and the ones in the minority are the always the ones complaining and making the negative remarks about their organization..

We all know there are some people who think that posting their land because of low deer density and thinking that will increase the herd on their property... many that have done that are now changing their mind, they found they can not keep the deer there and did not get the results they thought they would get...


But if you talk to 50 property owners and ask why their land is posted you will find that lack of deer is not one of the top reasons when you get all 50 responses..

#1.. Trespassing
#2.. ATVs
#3.. Want the lease money and can control who is on the grounds
#4.. Liability concerns
#5.. around here.. style of hunting (Amish)
#6.. anti-hunting
#7.. maybe.. keep deer to themselves

I assume that Doc talked to 50 property owners and his survey put the reasons in the proper order. When I talk to these guys again I'll ask them if they remember ole Doc coming around and asking them to put down their complaints. Doc, isn't it you that is always saying the reason they don't get all those big bucks your always claiming you see around your area is they always stay on the posted property? Hummm

And that property is posted for the lease money reason.. not LACK OF DEER...
and I have been told that there are only about 5 guys that hunt it..

I use 50 just as a figure of speech... I am referring to people I know or "sort" of know from the store and being neighbors... is it actually 30 or 50 I don't know.. but the reasons they tell me they have the ground posted is as I have listed.. and I have had similar conversations with staff at the PGC as to reasons for posted ground..

One interesting thing... all but 2 of the folks I have talked to with posted land around here in the past three years of working at the store have then said if I wanted to hunt there I could.. no ATVs and not a bunch of other guys...and no bait of any type..

the 2 that said no were because the land is leased to someone else...

the negative people on here are going to believe what they want and no one or any facts are going to change that.. if you want to believe the #1 reason land is posted is because of lack of deer no one is going to change your mind... not even the Pa Farm Bureau

Here's aprt of an article by John Hayes ===

No records are kept documenting private land that is posted, but about 80 percent of Pennsylvania land is privately owned. The state allows hunting and other outdoor recreational activities on most of the 1.4 million acres of state game lands financed almost entirely by hunters. Most of another 2.1 million acres of state forest land also is open to hunting, as well as thousands of acres in state and county parks.

But most hunting in Pennsylvania occurs on private property with the direct or implied consent of the owner, and hunters said access is drying up fast.

"It's getting harder and harder to find a place to hunt," said Dan Beard, who lives and hunts in Westmoreland County. "The game lands get crowded, and when you go to a place that's been open to hunting all your life, it's posted."

Some posted property is open to individual hunters with specific permission. "Implied" consent isn't always clear. Owners are under no legal obligation to signal their intentions regarding their property -- hunters can be asked to leave even without "No Trespassing" signs. And despite the misconceptions of many hunters, signs do not have to be signed or mounted on frames to be legal.

Pennsylvania's Recreational Use of Land and Water Act protects landowners who allow free access to their land from liability involving a sporting accident or a firearm discharged on their property.

Landowners control their property but they don't own the wildlife, which is managed by the Game Commission. State hunting regulations apply on most private property.

The "No Hunting" signs go up for a variety of reasons, and safety isn't always the primary concern.

In a 2003 report on the property-access decisions of Pennsylvania landowners, Penn State University researchers found that about 69 percent of owners post their land for reasons including control and use of the property, previous experiences with hunters, liability and safety. Thirty-nine percent of all posting landowners said that a single event caused them to post.

Among nonposting landowners, 11 percent said they were concerned about relationships with neighbors. Fourteen percent said they allowed hunting to control the deer population.

Some aggrieved property owners say the inconsiderate actions of a few hunters prompted them to ban all hunters. Trespassing is a common reason landowners post signs, but rarely do disputes escalate to violence.

Another example ==

Here in Pa, I hate seeing posted signs. More land seems to be posted every year. Because of that fact, I do not post my property.

Having said that, I think I will need to start (at least for deer season next year). Too many people taking advantage of me not posting it, including my neighbors.

I pay the mortgage, taxes and drive 40 min one way to work. One of the reasons for all that is so I have some place to sit during deer season. Only to have people put drives on while I'm sitting in my stand on my OWN property. No more.

Regardless of whether land is posted or not. I ALWAYS ask permission EVERY year prior to entering someone else's land.

Unfortunately, the few bad apples will ruin it for everyone

"But if you talk to 50 property owners and ask why their land is posted you will find that lack of deer is not one of the top reasons when you get all 50 responses..

#1.. Trespassing
#2.. ATVs
#3.. Want the lease money and can control who is on the grounds
#4.. Liability concerns
#5.. around here.. style of hunting (Amish)
#6.. anti-hunting
#7.. maybe.. keep deer to themselves"

I wouldnt put antihunting anywhere near the top, unless in your local area youre overrun with them. . WHile there definately are some, they are grossly outnumbered. Around here, the number one reason is those who want to keep the deer for themselves and friends & famuily...And that is only added to by the decrease in the deer herd on any huntable lands. Id lost lands id hunted on for years because landowners didnt like the declining deer herd. We've also been turned down asking permission with the exact same reason stated. Id say slobs doing things they shouldnt would be in a virtual tie...Maybe even first... Hard to say, but it could go either way. Id agree liability issues also rank high. Id give it a close 3rd. We dont have any Amish here, and may be one or two antihunter landowners.. Not enough to make much difference though.

Trespassing as #1------What's the first thing you think when you see posted property-----I'll bet there are a bunch of deer in there------Posters are probably a bigger cause of trespassers during hunting season than any other reason. Look at how many people on here complain about people going on their posted owned or leased property. To post because of trespassers seems a oxymoran to me.

What's the first thing you think when you see posted property------I'll bet there are a bunch of deer in there-----

WOW... we sure were brought up differently then ..

my first thought is I have to stay out of there !!!!!

I can't beleive I would even think about how many deer might be there ????????

I can't beleive I would even think about how many deer might be there ????????

I was not refering to that property, I know there are tons in there.. but I learned that by living here not thinking about it
I was mearly replying to your comment about seeing a posted no hunting sign, and what would be the first thoughts thru one's mind...

some good hunting in this area is property bordering that piece of ground....some of it is SGL so it gets TONS of pressure and I think that only helps drive more deer onto the property.

Others are private posted property because of trespassing and that is due to the fact most in the area know the deer go there because it is not hunted... and as you said there are those that pay no mind to posted sign if their first thoughts were there are lots of deer in there....

now for "my 2010 deer plan"... predicting 3 months in ADVANCE !!!!

I posted that I am about to start scouting for deer... that's because for the first time in 40+ some years I am now allowed to hunt a posted property across the road from that property and is between farm fields and the that property.. It has been posted and patrolled since the 1970s and I thought it was a part of that property but I found out differently this spring... and acquired the owners permission to "try to get" one of those monster bucks on its way across the road..they do not hunt...





I am not allowed to take others with me... no baiting.. no permanent tree stand or any that would harm a tree.. no ATV.. no littering.. which was fine with me... I want to be on the ground anyhow in case I miss-judge the crossing area...

so if my plan works I'll be harvesting an antlerless in October and a legal buck this year in rifle season, also plan on hunting more than 4 hours in rifle season... which will prove as I have said along.. put in the time and effort and maybe move to a new area.. and a reward is possible...

now I have to scout to try to find the trails leading from the field to the road crossing...

any advice ??

I know the deer do not stay there, it's a simple matter of walking thru there to cross over to the un=hunted ground...

I see bucks run across the road there all the time... anywhere from 6 to 7am....

The trouble I will have is finding the path down the hill, crossing a creek and then heading to the road...

I'm guessing I have about a football field to hunt in... plus across the creek on property I can not get permission to hunt on it was timbered and is thick with striped maples, and other 4-5 foot tall trees .. very very thick like a slashing...

it should be a challenge...since I can NOT go over there to scout...

Shouldn't be too hard Doc, according to RSB the rut and breeding lasts for 5 months..
That should make it much easier to try for a buck......Being that they are easy to kill then...


I really wish PA would pass a law like Colorado, all land is posted and you must obtain permission from the landowner before ever stepping foot on private ground...When I was out there that was there that was the worst game law violation there was...As it should be here....

Bings--- The breeding bell curve does show a long season but the first and last 6 weeks is a bit like us at 70. We still do it but you probably wouldn't want to spend your time in one spot waiting for us to show up.

Danesdad----- The PGC's purpose has always been to protect the states wildlife, both game and non-game from harm as well as the habitat. The so called New mission statement is nothing different EXCEPT it denoted the official beginning of the PGC changing their priorties to the non-game birds and animals. It is merely a reflection of the enviromental movement to promote non-comsuptive used of the states wildlife resources. Pick up some old game news magazines and you can follow the change in priorties over the last couple decades. Interesting that they chose to purge most of their past history and the events of HR/AR but some can still be found on the net and especially in the old game news mgazines.