PGN Article On Antler Restrictions

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dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 12:16:47 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

I don't think that is a valid question either but for different reasons than deerfly.

 
Don't worry, I am not sitting some secret data that will refute your answer.   Just curious as to personal opinions on a acceptable success rate for the average firearms only buck hunter in Pa. 

My rifle is a black rifle
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wayne c
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 12:47:31 (permalink)
"Since almost all bucks 1.5 years old are illegal, wouldn't one see more 2.5 year old bucks???....WF"


Actually thats not the case. Almost all 1.5's ARENT illegal. Antler restrictions were designed to save around half. A significant portion of yearlings do meet the minimum restriction requirements. And even the yearlings that do not meet restrictions are still legal for some hunters. Around half of our harvest is still yearlings, which shows many yearlings are meeting the restrictions, and others being shot by those who dont need to follow the restriction.

Also, you need to remember many fewer are being born in the first place, thanks to hr.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/08/26 12:50:52
#32
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 14:43:32 (permalink)
Mea Culpa.....WF
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DarDys
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 15:13:17 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

ORIGINAL: deerfly

IMHO I don't think that is the question we should be asking,since it is based solely on personal opinions.


It is personal opinion much the same as those that say our deer hunting stinks.

You had mentioned firearms only hunters and their disatisfaction with AR.  I asked what your personal opinion was in regards to average days afield for a rifle only hunter in pursuit of bucks and what a acceptable success rate would be in your opinion based on that time afield.

 
I don't think it is a valid question either.  Time served only counts in prison.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 15:26:38 (permalink)
It seems that no one wants to give an opinion on what I asked, for what reason, they only know. 

There are many that claim our deer hunting stinks.  Really just trying to get a handle on what good deer hunting is in others minds.  I feel that if I put in a the time that I do, my chances will be good.  I also feel that if I only hunt a few days a year, my chances will be poor.

Our success rates on antlered deer stands was 17% in 2008.  Is that "good hunting" or "bad hunting".
post edited by dpms - 2010/08/26 16:06:43

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#35
S-10
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 15:49:23 (permalink)
When you can convince me that our deer hunter numbers have dropped over TWICE as fast as hunters in general I may believe that 19% number. Deer hunting nationwide is by far the most popular form of hunting, it is one of the easiest forms, and it is the engine that drives the PGC programs. To claim that deer hunters are quitting hunting over twice as fast as they are quitting hunting in general flies in the face of reason. I would suggest it proves the adage that figures don't lie but l--rs can figure.
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S-10
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 15:59:18 (permalink)
In order for your 19% to be correct we would have had only 570,100 deer hunters last year. I don't think even the PGC would try to make that one fly.
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dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 16:05:17 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

In order for your 19% to be correct we would have had only 570,100 deer hunters last year. I don't think even the PGC would try to make that one fly.

 
My mistake.  It was 17% in 2008.  This was based off of roughly 720,000 antlered deer hunters and 122,000 antlered deer harvested.
 
Is a 17% success rate on antlered deer good hunting or bad hunting?

My rifle is a black rifle
#38
deerfly
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 16:10:25 (permalink)
Maybe DPSM was referring to his personal success rate rather than the statewide rate ,which was around 15% for buck in 2009.

Since breeding rates and productivity did not increase as the herd was reduced, that indicates that the herd in 2001 was at or below the MSY CC of the habitat. In 2001 the buck hunter success rate 24%, so IMHO the buck harvest success rate should be somewhere in the range of 20-25%.
#39
S-10
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 16:21:49 (permalink)
Lets see---- Each year the PGC quotes a lower percentage of hunters turning in their report cards which means they add numbers of deer to the reported kill and each year they claim deer hunters are quiting at a rate over twice what the numbers show hunters are quitting which increases the percentage of successful hunters. At the same time the number of deer killed is still trending downward. What happens when both the numbers they claim for reporting and deer hunter numbers reach zero.
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dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 16:27:14 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: deerfly

Maybe DPSM was referring to his personal success rate rather than the statewide rate ,which was around 15% for buck in 2009.

Since breeding rates and productivity did not increase as the herd was reduced, that indicates that the herd in 2001 was at or below the MSY CC of the habitat. In 2001 the buck hunter success rate 24%, so IMHO the buck harvest success rate should be somewhere in the range of 20-25%.


The data I saw was up to 2008.  Have not seen any for 2009 but will take your word for it.

My rifle is a black rifle
#41
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 16:42:17 (permalink)
I'll bite....

ORIGINAL: dpms
......
Is a 17% success rate on antlered deer good hunting or bad hunting?


for me personally,

Pre AR/HR, 17% would have been bad hunting.
Post AR/HR 17% is good hunting.

'Success' is relative.

"If you ever get hit with a bucket of fish, be sure to close your eyes." ><)))*>
#42
wayne c
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 17:14:07 (permalink)
IMHO Pa's buck success rate is poor, because its lower than most other states. With or without ar doesnt make a difference, because after the first year or two of saving bucks, those bucks were added to the harvest, aside from some natural mortality, they didnt disappear. Ar shouldnt have lowered the success rate after the first year or two. The number of legal bucks shouldve increased as the age classes filled up. Thats what was predicted when they said the harvests would "return to more normal levels" after the first year when the first years yearlings were saved. And thats also what shouldve happened. But it didnt thanks to so much hr.

Most states have higher rates of success than Pa. Only way to find lower is to go to extreme conditions and pathetic deer density states... Or try to incorrectly compare to a state that doesnt guestimate it harvest, but uses only that which is reported, then in that case you can only compare our reported harvest to theirs....and i assure you, you wont find many equivalents of our hunter numbers with only a little over 40k buck reported harvest. There are very few states, and none comparable at all that have that low of a harvest, estimated OR reported that im aware of anyway.

That 17% spoken of is also the HIGHEST of the last three years.. It was lower in 2007 and in 2009 than it was in 2008.

Another thing this discussion brings to mind--I have to laugh when you see at times pgc or supporters saying the success rates are comparable to other states, then proceed to average in our higher harvests from the early years of the program, as if that is what we have today. lol.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/08/26 17:26:39
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DarDys
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 17:56:32 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms

It seems that no one wants to give an opinion on what I asked, for what reason, they only know. 

There are many that claim our deer hunting stinks.  Really just trying to get a handle on what good deer hunting is in others minds.  I feel that if I put in a the time that I do, my chances will be good.  I also feel that if I only hunt a few days a year, my chances will be poor.

Our success rates on antlered deer stands was 17% in 2008.  Is that "good hunting" or "bad hunting".

 
Having rifle only hunted nearly 40 years, here are my numbers that you asked for:
 
Pre AR/HR Buck percentage kill = 94%; average days hunted less than 1.5 per season
 
Post Ar/HR Buck percentage kill = 17%; average days hunted 5 per season
 
So from my point of view, yes, post AR/HR hunting stinks.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#44
S-10
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 18:20:50 (permalink)
DPMS---If you rifle hunt for bucks daylight to dark for two weeks and only see one buck the entire time but kill it on the last evening of the last day is that good hunting or bad hunting?

If you rifle hunt for bucks daylight to dark for two weeks and see 12 bucks but either pass on them or do not get the shot and end up with nothing is that good hunting or bad hunting?
#45
deerfly
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 18:22:33 (permalink)
Is a 17% success rate on antlered deer good hunting or bad hunting?


IMHO the 17% success rate would be rated as average PA buck hunting if it was based on the same number of deer hunters we had in 2000. But a 17% success rate attained by reducing the number of buck hunters by over 200k is poor buck hunting. Furthermore, one should remember that the level of enjoyment obtained while hunting is based on the number of deer that they see , rather than the number of deer they harvest and there is no debating the fact that the average PA hunter is seeing a lot fewer deer than they did in 2000.


The solution to higher buck harvest rates should not be based on reducing the number of buck hunters. If that was the goal than instead of implementing ARs,the PGC should have set quotas for the number of deer hunters for each WMU just as they do in many other states.
post edited by deerfly - 2010/08/26 18:35:14
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dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 18:45:02 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: DarDys

Having rifle only hunted nearly 40 years, here are my numbers that you asked for:

Pre AR/HR Buck percentage kill = 94%; average days hunted less than 1.5 per season

Post Ar/HR Buck percentage kill = 17%; average days hunted 5 per season

So from my point of view, yes, post AR/HR hunting stinks.


Thanks for you opinion.  In regards to personal numbers, my success is essentially the same since 1983, when I began hunting.  There were a few years prior to HR/AR that I did not rifle hunt because of college or work.  Since AR/HR,  though deer sightings have been fewer, opportunities on bucks have been greater for me.  
post edited by dpms - 2010/08/26 18:54:51

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dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 18:50:28 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

DPMS---If you rifle hunt for bucks daylight to dark for two weeks and only see one buck the entire time but kill it on the last evening of the last day is that good hunting or bad hunting?

If you rifle hunt for bucks daylight to dark for two weeks and see 12 bucks but either pass on them or do not get the shot and end up with nothing is that good hunting or bad hunting?

 
1. I would rate that as fair because I got a opportunity.  Depending on the quality of the buck that was harvested, I may or may not seek out another location.
 
2. I would rate that as very good hunting.  I would hunt there more often. 
 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#48
Ironhed
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/26 22:19:27 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

When you can convince me that our deer hunter numbers have dropped over TWICE as fast as hunters in general I may believe that 19% number. Deer hunting nationwide is by far the most popular form of hunting, it is one of the easiest forms, and it is the engine that drives the PGC programs. To claim that deer hunters are quitting hunting over twice as fast as they are quitting hunting in general flies in the face of reason. I would suggest it proves the adage that figures don't lie but l--rs can figure.


S-10,
You wouldn't believe it if Jesus Christ wrote it himself.  So what's it matter?

Ironhed

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#49
S-10
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 08:02:11 (permalink)
Welll-- since the PGC saw fit to change the way they calculate the deer herd three times since the start of AR/HR with three different population models, admit they only implemented AR as something that might allow them ti implement herd reduction, now admit they aren't sure if AR will lead to significant antler reduction, now admit that deer play no role in the transmission of lyme disease and reducing the deer population will not reduce the number of ticks, don't have a clue on the yearling buck harvests in 2f and 2g but keep killing the deer, were found to be inadequately calculating the deer harvest by WMI, the forest health declined even as the deer population was reduced, did not get the breeding window tightened as thought, still claim coyotes do not impact deer even with the deer herd cut by half with the same amount of coyotes feeding on them, and in general ignore the hunters, landowners,CAC's, and businesses that tell them they have gone too far in herd reduction, then yes, if Jesus was making those claims with that track record I probably wouldn't believe him either. Fortunately, he isn't the one we are talking about.-----Oh, and don't forget about the 1,600,000 crop ravaging, tick laden, starving deer that started this whole thing that nobody in the PGC wants to talk about any longer.
post edited by S-10 - 2010/08/27 08:20:27
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tull66
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 09:32:45 (permalink)
S-10, I agree and was about to type pretty much the same thing.  
 
This argument reminds me Joe Biden making claims that the economy is improving and jobs are being created based on numbers and stats provided by his administration.  Anyone with a pulse knows otherwise.
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DarDys
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 10:56:04 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

DPMS---If you rifle hunt for bucks daylight to dark for two weeks and only see one buck the entire time but kill it on the last evening of the last day is that good hunting or bad hunting?

If you rifle hunt for bucks daylight to dark for two weeks and see 12 bucks but either pass on them or do not get the shot and end up with nothing is that good hunting or bad hunting?

 
Since there are very few, I would guesstimate less than 5% of gun hunters, that are able to hunt daylight to dark for two weeks because they have a life other than deer hunting, perhaps the better question should be:
 
If in the past you hunted 3 days per season and killed a buck every other year or every third year (perhaps even more frequently) pre AR/HR and post AR/HR you have killed one or none in the last 7 years despite hunting an area that has had no significant changes in habitat, people population, etc. except for the adoption of AR/HR, do you consider it good hunting or bad hunting?

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 11:56:43 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: DarDys

If in the past you hunted 3 days per season and killed a buck every other year or every third year (perhaps even more frequently) pre AR/HR and post AR/HR you have killed one or none in the last 7 years despite hunting an area that has had no significant changes in habitat, people population, etc. except for the adoption of AR/HR, do you consider it good hunting or bad hunting?

 
If you are still seeing bucks but passing or they do not meet AR, then I would still consider it fair to good hunting.
 
If, you are not seeing bucks at all, then I would consider it bad hunting and move on to other areas that still have good hunting. 

My rifle is a black rifle
#53
CrossForkWookie
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 14:45:20 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: S-10

Interesting also that in order to make that claim they have to admit that the number of folks who identify themselves as deer hunters has dropped more than twice as fast as the number of hunters in general. In addition they had to cherry pick early deer kill numbers that ignore the decade prior to HR/AR when the buck kill as well as the bucks entered in the Pa record book was on an steady increase.


Maybe you should compare other states statistics with ours to see if it's a PA thing or part of a growing trend nationwide.



.
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deerfly
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 16:38:37 (permalink)
From 1999 to 2001 general license sales were increasing ,not decreasing. But from 2001 t0 2008 , general license sales decreased by over 105K. Junior license sales were also increasing until 2004 and then they began a steady decline in sales.
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deerfly
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 16:43:08 (permalink)
If, you are not seeing bucks at all, then I would consider it bad hunting and move on to other areas that still have good hunting. 



In your opinion which WMU's still have good hunting? Are they the WMUs where the plan has been most successful or are they WMUs where the plan has been less successful?
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tull66
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 16:59:40 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: dpms
If, you are not seeing bucks at all, then I would consider it bad hunting and move on to other areas that still have good hunting. 

 
Try here:




Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas

California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware

Florida
Georgia

Idaho

Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas

Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland

Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi

Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada

New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York

North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma

Oregon

Rhode Island
South Carolina

South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah

Vermont
Virginia
Washington
West Virginia

Wisconsin
Wyoming


 
#57
dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 19:58:07 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: deerfly

In your opinion which WMU's still have good hunting? Are they the WMUs where the plan has been most successful or are they WMUs where the plan has been less successful?

 
I believe that there are pockets of good deer hunting within every WMU.  I also believe that there are pockets of poor deer hunting in every WMU.  Many consider my neck of the woods, 2B and 2A to have excellent deer hunting.  For the most part it does, but there are some areas way better than others.  I know many folks that hunt in these two WMUs and see few deer.
 
 
 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#58
dpms
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 20:01:54 (permalink)
tull66,
 
One of my best areas is a farm game co-op open to anyone that asks.  Great hunting exists in Pa. for those that want to find it. 

My rifle is a black rifle
#59
tull66
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RE: PGN Article On Antler Restrictions 2010/08/27 20:25:58 (permalink)
DPMS, You stated earlier you hunt in 2a/2b and there is no doubt some decent hunting exists in that area mostly due to high human populations and private/posted property.  Unfortunately this don't offer much to the guy who lives in Clinton county or the guy who invested in a camp in Forrest county. 
ORIGINAL: dpms
Great hunting exists in PA for those that want to find it.

 
Pray to the Almighty that everyone doesn't find it.
#60
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