Nymphing Tactics

Fishing new water is hard enough...but the biggest challenge for me I think is fishing large rivers.  After a recent trip to a large unfamiliar river it made me wonder how others would fish the same runs.  Yes we caught a fair amount of fish but I didnt feel confident in my nymphing in this river.  alot of the runs were 6-8 feet deep with ALOT of water pushing through them.  Most of the time I fished a 10' leader, alot of shot, and tried to keep a fairly tight to feel for takes.  Perhaps it is in my head but it seems like this technique creates alot of drag and is only good for very short drifts in this kind of water( although all my fish were caught like this).  Tight lining in smaller water...piece of cake.  So I was wondering how some of you Experienced fly-fishers would go about fishing water like this.  Especially you guys who have fished out west before.   

Thanks for the reply...but it really doesnt help...seems geared more towards a first timer.  Im not trying to fish the whole river???? You certaintly cant see fish in these kinds of runs either. Im specifically asking about nyphing in 6+ft deep fast runs.  Pocket water, tail outs, and shallow runs there are cake to fish like they are any where else.  This time of year like steelhead the larger browns congregate in these deep runs and faster plunge pools on their trek to find an area to spawn.  The few times Ive been to this place that has always been true.  Back to the question at hand how would you EXPERIENCED flyfishers fish these deep fast runs??  Keep in mind you will be using nymphs of some sort.  I would like to know the techniques you use and a basic description of terminal tackle.

Chris -  Fishing deep runs is all about correct weight distribution.  Heaviest shot closest to the fly line and then increment towards the fly with smaller shot .. getting smaller the close you get.  This can hinder the movement of the fly so it's important to be able to recognize what is too much shot or too little.  Don't be afraid to use heavier tippet if need be.  It may stiffen the drift a bit but will handle the shot better.  Every run/seam will be different.  Fish the edges and look for breaks in the water.
 
I'm not a big fan of really heavy thin flies but that's the ticket if the water is really moving.  Use heavy hooks and don't make the fly too bulky.  Tunsten beads are the way to go.  Add lead if you must although this can many times be overkill.
 
It may be a good idea to use a 6 weight if you have one.  Not necessary at all but I like to with big water.
 
Like GW said, shorten your leader.  Fluorocarbon also sinks faster if you want to go that route.

< non experienced by far but listening to you guys i am learning more and more.flyfishing is like golf some days you pick all the right clubs and some ya don't lol

You can't hurt my feelings. I give info slowly at first to feel a person out myself. Nymph fishing is one of those things that what works for me can and sometimes not work for someone else. To explain the whys as to how it works for myself is not clear. I fish water from 1 ft to 6 ft deep most of the time. You get this second sense to yourself as you do more nymphing over time. You strike at nothing, no indication that anything is near your fly and there it is a trout. the leader set up is a chopped up tapered leader. I'll take a 9 ft leader cut a ft off the butt end and tie that to the fly line, I'll cut 2 ft off the tippet end and add 3 ft of floro.. Tie the fly on and add 18 inchs more of the next step down of leader size and tie on a dropper.Rod is held high, tip is over my head height, rod is lowered at the bottom part of the drift to let the fly have line and to stretch out the drift. 9 out of 10 times my dropper is an emerger pattern. Nothing of any particular pattern just a wet fly w/ a clipped wing, (wht, yellow or light green in color). These are purely generic fly patterns. The top fly will be a pheasant tail or GRHE. Smaller early and late in the season. The weights added are small and smaller, I never carry anything of 1 large weight by itself. I like the lead that comes in a matchbook design, and use 1/3 to 1/2 a strip to start. Snagging bottom less weight and same is true of not touching bottom, add. Weight is started by placing 1 ft above fly and adjusted though out the day, but never closer than that ft. I do fish indicators in the rivers around me, but these are also kept small, I not looking for them to suspend the fly but to be my eyes. I mentioned about be observant, I learned the most about fly casting yrs ago when I stopped and watched a fellow fisherman cast. Looked at is stroke. This goes the same w/ any fly fishing. Stop before you even dress up and rig up and walk a small section of the river.

Heres another question,be it for yourself or someone else reading this, what are you wearing on the water? Do you blend in w/ the surroundings or stand out like a orange raincoat wearing fisherman. (Had to add that, that in itself is funny and where do we find this?) This does make a difference in the fish you catch and your abilities to get close to them to nymph. my clothing is muted in color and matches the surroundings right down to a tee shirt that may be visible through the openings in my vest or shirt. I wear long sleeve shirts, even in the summer months, so my wht skin is not visible.

How long have you been nymphing to give you an idea, I've been at it for better than 25 yrs and still learning. This does take time to " master" for a lack of better words and It'll take another 25 yrs to finally understand.

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

Thanks guys.  I didnt mean for it to sound like im questioning salts ability.  Sorry salts if it came out that way.  I emphasized experienced beacuse I didnt want to have another blind leading the blind thread. The rod im fishing for this is a 10' 5wt.  I think im ok with that.  Indicator fishing is certainly not an option.  The deeper the water the more variation in currents throughout the water column, fishing an indicator even properly mended will create alot of drag.  Some good thoughts on the weight distribution guys.  Something I will definately pay more attention to next time.  Any more tips/comments are greatly appreciated.   

7.5' definately isnt enough for what im talkin about.  I like to use a 7.5 for smaller water though.  I definately agree with high-stickin/tight lining giving you very short effective drifts.  Although that is generally how I would fish the deep and fast stuff.  Like I said above we caught some nice fish doing it.  But, I couldnt stop thinking all weekend "there has got to be a better way". 
 
I have tried indicator fishing there but I dont think I had the correct leader length.  Like you said it sinks the indicator then and creates tons of drag. I typically like 10', but what you said makes good sense.  Perhaps the way to go about it is 12-15' leader and an indicator??? 
 
Thanks guys...some sound advice
Keep em' coming

Esox,
 
have u ever tried/read/or heard anything about Czech Nymphing? I  have been practicing it as of late and is has accounted for a decent amount of fish for me, Epecially in the yough and on some holes in Meadow Run, which tend to get really deep and fast and really are strange, if you've fished it during high water u'd know what im talking about.  Czech Nymphing is probably the best plunge pool tactic iv'e found so far.  Also, I am a huge fan of the drop shotting techniuqe on a fly-rod.  Call me crazy, but when the waters up and fast, you can really high stick from a decent distance away given you have so much weight on the leader itself, it helps it to slice effortlessly through the current.  If the water is off color ill use a barrel swivel to "drop" the shot off, for clearer faster conditions ill drop the shot off from behind a blood or surgeons knot.  When casting, this method has gotten the nick-name of "Chuck and Duck" because of how much weight is whipping at you, Ive gotten a black eye before myself.  But, I cant tell you how many fish iv'e caught using this technique.  Cast upstream, and pull upstream at a 45 degree angle to get the fly behind the sinkers, then use ur instinct to keep the sinkers "ticking" the bottom.  Your in all actuallity making a 90 degree angle from fly line to fly, and this allows your fly to roll just off the bottom.  Takes are hard to feel but your fly line usually comes to an abrubpt stop as when the sinkers drift past the fish they alert you to the strike.  Use Amnesia for a leader butt to see whats going on.  Hope this helps.

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

7.5' definately isnt enough for what im talkin about.  I like to use a 7.5 for smaller water though.  I definately agree with high-stickin/tight lining giving you very short effective drifts.  Although that is generally how I would fish the deep and fast stuff.  Like I said above we caught some nice fish doing it.  But, I couldnt stop thinking all weekend "there has got to be a better way". 

I have tried indicator fishing there but I dont think I had the correct leader length.  Like you said it sinks the indicator then and creates tons of drag. I typically like 10', but what you said makes good sense.  Perhaps the way to go about it is 12-15' leader and an indicator??? 

Thanks guys...some sound advice
Keep em' coming

A 12 foot leader is not easy to cast, but it should help you in deep water.

Some more advice....Always use 2 nymphs, and place them about 8-10 inches apart. Do this by tying a peice of tippet onto the hookshank of your first nymph, then connect the second nymph to that peice of tippet. I like to use two different nymphs to start that way you can find out which one the fish are taking, then switch to a pair of what is working. Place your shot about 6 - 10" above your first nymph, not between them. Space out you shot with a fingers width between them. I always use at least a pair of shot because I seem to get hung up less that way.

This setup works well for me, and i've got a lot of people on a lot of fish this way. Like I said earlier, using an indicator allows you to distance yourself from the fish. When tight line nymphing, people typically scare more fish than they realize, since they often stand right over top of them.

Im still screwing up the drag in the current with an indicator. I dont know Ive tried so many things. If i wasnt for a few hungry trout going after the hares ear I would of given up on it. most of my nymphing Im using a dropper and they are going after the egg more then the nymph. Also Im doing this after reading everyones advice and havent really had anyone to show me or let me know wether Im doing it correct or not. 

ORIGINAL: kyler16

Im still screwing up the drag in the current with an indicator. I dont know Ive tried so many things. If i wasnt for a few hungry trout going after the hares ear I would of given up on it. most of my nymphing Im using a dropper and they are going after the egg more then the nymph. Also Im doing this after reading everyones advice and havent really had anyone to show me or let me know wether Im doing it correct or not. 

 
Are you mending your line during the drift?

The indicator seems to be pulling forward of the nymph is it trun that your to make the depth 1.5 times the depth your fishing? I try not to use weight I try to my them as weighted so it looks more natural. yes Im mending so the slack isnt pulling the float. 

I'm glad I browsed this thread because it just brought a bad habit of mine into the open and is probably a big reason for missing a lot of takes...

Everytime I fish an indicator, I put it directly below the fly line, probably a quarter inch gap between the indicator and fly line. As silly as this sounds, I've never thought of placing it anywhere else on the leader, ever. I always figure my depth out with weight added or subtracted and figure that the indicator at the very top would be sufficient enough no matter the water depth. Or...does my method really hinder anything at all?

Makes more sense that takes would make strike detection easier with placing it on the smaller tippet taper.

Kyler,

You shouldnt be using your strike indicator only to detect strikes.  When used properly it gives you great control over you fly and presentation. They are very effective for depth control.  It also makes it very easy to read water, pay close attention and the indicator will show you every feeding lane in a given pool, run, ect.  Lastly they make it very obvious when drag is present.

As far as fishing without indicators, its pretty simple.  Keep the rod high, keep as much line off the water, and keep your line as tight as you can without creating drag.  With a decent rod you will feel the takes, generally just a little bump in the drift. Use red amnesia to connect your fly line and leader, it will help you see changes in your drift.  The downsides of fishing like this are primarily for me, getting much shorter drifts compared to those with an indicator.  There are many times though when indicators are not an option.  For one, low and clear water with wild(smart) fish, and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, big deep water(although im gonna give indicators another try for this next time).

IMO use an indicator if possible (if it is getting you a good drift and your not spooking fish).  Try a shorter leader next time if you decide to go indicator-less.  It will help you control your line a little better and give a better feel. 

http://www.fishandfly.co.uk/tledit0500a.html
 
Check out that website Esox, it will give you some help, but the best thing to do is buy a book.  Most things I have found about Czech Nymphing on the internet just kind of "hint" around it, they always want you to purchase a book, maybe some sort of omen, I dont know.  What about drop shotting did you look into that at all??