LockedWOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission

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S-10
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 11:23:04 (permalink)
While the overall trend is down and will continue down at least for a few more years I would agree that we will probably see a small bump upward next year for the reason you mentioned assuming no radical weather issues.
#31
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 12:58:31 (permalink)
Sk, I have no problem with you. When people say "hunt somewhere else" and are disreguarding anything else, that is what I call greed. As for World Famous; I have my reasons....WF
#32
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 13:27:23 (permalink)
Not really talkin' about me, WF. Talkin more about you. But at times there is some truth to "hunt somewhere else" -- maybe others aren't disregarding other factors, they just not expanding on their opinions. That of course isn't my attempt to say others aren't greedy.

I know what it's like to hunt "no deer" areas. I've seen numerous times on this very board, folks talkin' about an immediate area I hunt and how there's no deer. I also see the others that likely haven't experienced HR to its full extent stating AR/HR is the greatest since sliced bread. But some just have different opinions on this "downward" trend.

Guess I get confused every year when harvest data is released and folks start yackin'.. like they expected to the buck harvest to jump to 160,000 or something. Then the same guys that say the reporting is flawed, use the numbers they want, to satify their agenda, but yet the numbers are flawed.


I jump on the "first-day rain" bandwagon... I'da been in bed by 10:00 a.m. without a tree umbrella.

119,000 antlered to be harvested this coming year. I'll try my best to be one of them.

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#33
wayne c
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 13:56:54 (permalink)
Sk says; Then the same guys that say the reporting is flawed, use the numbers they want, to satify their agenda, but yet the numbers are flawed.


Not sure what your problem is with that? IF they are flawed they dont support the gameless commission. If they arent flawed, they still dont support the game commission because they are clearly quite pathetic, and show "stabilization" is a joke. Not sure if that comment were pointed towards me, but if it was, i hope i cleared up your confusion.


I'll tell you what's REALLY sad. We have 970,000 hunters and only 105,000 harvest cards were reported. Why haven't you addressed this wayne ?


I agree, id like to see better reporting, but if hunters arent buying into the scam and dont want to help with what they see as complete mismanagement and arent reporting...while i dont agree with it, pgc only has themselves to blame. Its just another unfortunate side effect of the mismanagement. Doesnt really matter though...Pgc crosschecks and the system was found to be sufficient to guestimate the harvest remember?

Did you kill a buck last year ?


Not sure how that matters to any of this?? Statewide management success or failure hinges on my successful harvest or lack thereof? lmao. Ive played this game a time or three and am fully aware of how the story goes from here... Lets see if i was successful, and harvested a buck, i shouldnt be complaining. If i didnt, then i just dont know how to hunt and am a whiner.... Well i guess in that case i shouldnt be complaining.

119,000 antlered to be harvested this coming year.


Which is still pretty pathetic. And due to no "fix" of the antlerless allocations it liable to be a NEW modern record low the very next year thereafter. But that will be ok as long as its not a decline every single year straight.

post edited by wayne c - 2010/03/23 14:15:37
#34
wayne c
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 14:01:42 (permalink)
"Does anyone else think there is a strong correlation with the weather with this year's harvests and the 2007-2008 harvests?"


No. They made the weather excuse after the 2007/08. Problem was the harvest was down 11%. The next year 08/09 they predicted a great year with the best odds at a big buck ever in our lifetimes because of the rain on the first day the year before...the next year 08/09 came and went, weather was fine and harvest only increased 4%!!! And the big bucks?lol. no comment. Where did all those "saved by the weather" deer vanish to?? Then the NEXT year, which would be this past year we decline another 8%... Sorry, but the facts show otherwise. The herd is in continual reduction mode, and rain or no rain many decades low havests prove it. One day of rain doesnt make or break a season thats why its 2 weeks long. There are plenty of other high harvest days for one day to be made up. And the numbers ive shown above prove it. You dont "overcome" the effects of 900k hunters and a bazillion doe tags with one day of rain, though there could very well be VERY slight effects as we'd seen from 2007.. Though im happy things are going as they are. Makes it much easier for the legislators to dismiss the fee increase and makes it more likely that things will finally come to a head in the not too distant future.


As for "hunt somewhere else"... Not sure what that would accomplish when we are already stabilizing or reducing despite claims of stabilization, almost every wmu ALREADY. There is no room for adding more harvest unless you want the herd and the future harvests to plummet even further faster.

post edited by wayne c - 2010/03/23 14:23:48
#35
Fisherlady2
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 14:22:49 (permalink)
Please allow a non-hunter to pose a question.... I have been following these threads but since I don't hunt I can't provide an informed opinion regarding the PGC other than maybe a very uneducated "the only time I think wildlife has been managed right was when mother nature was left alone to do it before stupid humans got involved..."
 That being said I have been reading these threads but something I haven't seen mentioned other than very briefly on another thread.... does anyone have an accurate count on the number of deer hit/killed on roadways in Pa?  Have those numbers been tracked over time and is there any increase? Have those numbers had an effect on the deer herd available for hunting in some of the areas of contention?
 Like I said, I am not a hunter, can't voice an opinion on if the deer herd is being or has been managed right, I just wondered where those numbers may fit in the equation? And please excuse my lack of education in this area if that question was already asked and answered in a previous thread...
 
#36
wayne c
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 14:28:54 (permalink)
Jerry Feaser of the Pa Game commission stated that that data which is provided by the insurance companies is meant to garner attention for the companies and little else. Pa ranks highly in roadkill from year to year, because pa ranks high in human population/drivers & roads.

Though the totals im sure have decreased along with the 40+% reductions to the herd since around 1999 or 2000.

Roadkills also did not reduce our herd. The reduction timing was concurrent with seasons being added, years of 800,00+ to over a million doe tags and many added "opportunities" to harvest deer.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/03/23 14:34:09
#37
S-10
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 15:24:18 (permalink)
The number of roadkills seem to rise and fall according to the rise and fall of the deer population as a whole in the states that keep track of those numbers. They can calculate that percentage based on the number of tagged or radio collered deer that are killed that way. Some states also keep track of the number of deer picked up on the roadway and compare it to the estimated deer population. Basicly, the more deer that are running around the state, the more that are going to run out in front of someones vehicle.
#38
DanesDad
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 15:24:55 (permalink)
Suppose the PGC goes to a deer processor and looks at ten ear tags from harvested deer, then cross refers that to cards sent in and finds out three of the deer at the processor have corresponding report cards. Then suppose they go to 100 different processors and find the percentage to be the same (basically) for each one. How hard is it to estimate the kill accurately from that? It may not be perfect, but it will be close enough to the truth kill that the difference wouldn't matter.

Whether or not you agree with the numbers, I think we all can see that the overall population of deer in PA is declining. So what do we do about it? I know! Let's start doe season the second week instead of running it concurrently (LMAO)!!!
#39
eyesandgillz
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 15:30:34 (permalink)
In any given year, between 65,000 and 100,000 deer are most likely killed on Pennsylvania roadways.  Numbers are tough to nail down as the data is not tracked well. 
In 2003, Erie Insurance, just one insurance company, reported 17,525 deer collisions.  I think Erie Ins. is one of the only companies in PA that tracks and reports the data.  Either way, PA has been in the top 3 states for awhile now for deer-auto collision risk and right at the top for highway deaths as well. 
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=NeHHjvDaRMEC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=Erie+Insurance+Reported+road+killed+deer+in+pennsylvania&source=bl&ots=XhNAtItzQR&sig=Yb-PEoCc1Mgx05m8itsBGBGZQ8s&hl=en&ei=mBSpS87_BNG6jAePydnyAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#
 
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2004/11/11-05-04tdc/11-05-04dnews-03.asp
 
If you really want to know, you can start up the google fire and find some more recent data from Erie Ins. 
#40
S-10
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 15:47:35 (permalink)
Danesdad---How are you going to calculate the number of hunters that killed and butchered their own deer. For example=Kansas F&G believes their number to be around 55% self butchering. The PGC really does need accurate reporting to have an accurate count of the kill and they are in position to make it happen. IMO they should either make the change to assure 100% reporting or admit they really don't care and quit using it as an excuse.
#41
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 16:26:13 (permalink)
This was a fun thread to read for sure....
#42
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 16:36:02 (permalink)
That being said...im betting next year they'll say 102000 "antlered" and 204500"antlerless" and 39% button buck. In actualilty we'll all post on how we arent seeing the bucks(until the rut lol) and not many does but the GC will say we have a strong herd. if anyone noticed 2b still had tags in the rifle season...wonder why? why arent people buying that over populated WMU kinda telling me that there isnt a strong****population as the GC says...but yet look at the harvest report...5000 more from last year? 20000? I dont buy that one. if the tags werent sold out, that to me says more then their harvest report, its more or less a hunters report, if hunting is that good somewhere those tags would have been sold out..and not lingering around.


I can see "the numbers" being simialar to last years but im banking on not seeing so many bucks in your WMU's like someone posted earlier...its 45000 less yearling racked bucks(sure its been happening like that a awhile now but its going to catch up sooner or later)..thats what about an average o f2000 less bucks in each wmu? think about that number..that kinda blows my mind THEN if i were smart enough take 2000 divided by the land in acrage and what not and see how many bucks more would be in "your" woods..STOP **** HAVING THE LONG SEASON TO SHOOT YOUR DOE! it would reduce the BB DEATH ratio...
post edited by Bull Lifter - 2010/03/23 16:39:53
#43
S-10
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 17:00:10 (permalink)
Interesting tidbit-- Unless your 40 years old you were not alive the last time the buck kill was this low using the reporting rate the PGC says we had back then.
post edited by S-10 - 2010/03/23 17:03:46
#44
Bull Lifter
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 17:06:02 (permalink)
lol you know my age but we're only talking like 970 less from 2007-2008 lol, but come on...i make some sense eh?
#45
S-10
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/23 17:36:25 (permalink)
Yep, you have to remember though, in many WMU's HR is still full speed ahead. For every four antlerless you don't kill you have saved one buck. Did you know for every 1% they say the reporting rate dropped from last year they get to add about 2500 bucks to the kill total. I wonder what happens when it reach's zero.
post edited by S-10 - 2010/03/23 17:50:52
#46
spoonchucker
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 02:47:37 (permalink)
970,000 hunters ( not all of whom hunt deer ), and 308,000 kills. One kill per 3 hunters. Not a bad average IMO. Especially when nobody sees any

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#47
Ironhed
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 05:34:48 (permalink)
119,000 antlered to be harvested this coming year.



Which is still pretty pathetic.


Pathetic compared to what, Wayne?
The deer "killing" days of yesteryear? lol

Ironhed
#48
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 05:55:22 (permalink)
YES
#49
DarDys
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 07:53:17 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

970,000 hunters ( not all of whom hunt deer ), and 308,000 kills. One kill per 3 hunters. Not a bad average IMO. Especially when nobody sees any

 
Keep in mind that some hunters killed more than one, so it really isn't one out of three hunters that were successful, it was one out of three licenses.  Just like fishing, there are those that consistently do well and then there are those that couldn't catch a fish in a bathtub.
 
It is about time that the supporters of HR get away from the phrase "nobody sees any."  That is not what those that don't support it are saying.  They are saying they are not seeing many.  There is a huge difference between "any" and "not many."

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#50
SilverKype
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 13:23:51 (permalink)
Someone such as yourself Shawn, that desires to spend as little as time possible hunting, and hoping for immediate "success", how many do you need to see ? Are you tellin' me you actually enjoy viewing deer ?


My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#51
SilverKype
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 13:33:38 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: wayne c

Sk says; Then the same guys that say the reporting is flawed, use the numbers they want, to satify their agenda, but yet the numbers are flawed.


Not sure what your problem is with that? IF they are flawed they dont support the gameless commission. If they arent flawed, they still dont support the game commission because they are clearly quite pathetic, and show "stabilization" is a joke. Not sure if that comment were pointed towards me, but if it was, i hope i cleared up your confusion.


I'll tell you what's REALLY sad. We have 970,000 hunters and only 105,000 harvest cards were reported. Why haven't you addressed this wayne ?


I agree, id like to see better reporting, but if hunters arent buying into the scam and dont want to help with what they see as complete mismanagement and arent reporting...while i dont agree with it, pgc only has themselves to blame. Its just another unfortunate side effect of the mismanagement. Doesnt really matter though...Pgc crosschecks and the system was found to be sufficient to guestimate the harvest remember?

Did you kill a buck last year ?


Not sure how that matters to any of this?? Statewide management success or failure hinges on my successful harvest or lack thereof? lmao. Ive played this game a time or three and am fully aware of how the story goes from here... Lets see if i was successful, and harvested a buck, i shouldnt be complaining. If i didnt, then i just dont know how to hunt and am a whiner.... Well i guess in that case i shouldnt be complaining.

119,000 antlered to be harvested this coming year.


Which is still pretty pathetic. And due to no "fix" of the antlerless allocations it liable to be a NEW modern record low the very next year thereafter. But that will be ok as long as its not a decline every single year straight.





Well wayne... if the PGC told you, you had 30 dpqm in your area, you'd say they are wrong, or liars, or whatever. But when the numbers they post (such as 108,000 antlered harvest)-- you believe it to be true, and use it against them. They are only right when you agree and are wrong when you disagree. My comment may have been pointed at you, and others. Seems to happen alot here. Just seems a bit silly to me to believe stat a, but not stat b, because of desires. It is what it is. Just before AR, PA harvested about 200,000 bucks annually. AR is supposed to save about 50% of 1.5 year old bucks. And you're surprised.. by a harvest of around 100,000. What do yinz think is gonna happen ? 300,000 4.5 year old 12 points ? LAUGH.


My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
#52
DarDys
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 14:56:36 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Someone such as yourself Shawn, that desires to spend as little as time possible hunting, and hoping for immediate "success", how many do you need to see ? Are you tellin' me you actually enjoy viewing deer ?



 
Nope, you're right, I just like to blast 'em.
 
But as much as I am on one extreme end of the spectrum, you are on the other.  Its those that are stuck in the middle that I have the greatest concern for.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#53
DanesDad
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 15:15:07 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: S-10

Danesdad---How are you going to calculate the number of hunters that killed and butchered their own deer. For example=Kansas F&G believes their number to be around 55% self butchering. The PGC really does need accurate reporting to have an accurate count of the kill and they are in position to make it happen. IMO they should either make the change to assure 100% reporting or admit they really don't care and quit using it as an excuse.

If they know from the reporting rate at butcher shops that 30% of successful hunters send in their cards, it is easy to figure out, (from cards they get that cant be connected to an actual deer in a butcher shop someplace)roughly how many were killed an butchered at home. In this example, my guess would be 30%....give or take.
My poiunt is, this method is not going to account for each and every deer killed by hunters, but there isn't really any need to have that exact number. Their method comes close enough. The difference between their estimate and the actual number is not significant.

I think people believe that we need an exact count because that would prove to the PGC that the population is down and then they would act to bring it back. Believe me, they KNOW the population is down. That's the idea behind HR. And , until they quit goofing with trivial, cosmetic changes and lower the number of antlerless tags, nothing will be any different.
#54
spoonchucker
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 15:20:13 (permalink)
In the spring, when fish movge into shallow water for pre-spawn. Do you fish shallow? Or do you keep fishing 25FOW, and complain that the PF&BC, should make sure there's so many fish, some spill over to where you want to fish?

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#55
DanesDad
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 15:20:26 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Bull Lifter

That being said...im betting next year they'll say 102000 "antlered" and 204500"antlerless" and 39% button buck. In actualilty we'll all post on how we arent seeing the bucks(until the rut lol) and not many does but the GC will say we have a strong herd. if anyone noticed 2b still had tags in the rifle season...wonder why? why arent people buying that over populated WMU kinda telling me that there isnt a strong****population as the GC says...but yet look at the harvest report...5000 more from last year? 20000? I dont buy that one. if the tags werent sold out, that to me says more then their harvest report, its more or less a hunters report, if hunting is that good somewhere those tags would have been sold out..and not lingering around.


I can see "the numbers" being simialar to last years but im banking on not seeing so many bucks in your WMU's like someone posted earlier...its 45000 less yearling racked bucks(sure its been happening like that a awhile now but its going to catch up sooner or later)..thats what about an average o f2000 less bucks in each wmu? think about that number..that kinda blows my mind THEN if i were smart enough take 2000 divided by the land in acrage and what not and see how many bucks more would be in "your" woods..STOP **** HAVING THE LONG SEASON TO SHOOT YOUR DOE! it would reduce the BB DEATH ratio...

The reason that 2B doesn't sell out is that they issue a huge number of tags (with the hope of reducing the population of deer in urban areas) and the reality is, there aren't many places to hunt. In the parts of 2B wheree there is some open land (where I live), the deer population is beat down like it is everywhere else. In South park and Mt. Lebanon, where there are small patches of privately owned ground in between housing developments (owned by bleeding heart yoyos that wont allow hunting, then want the PGC to use contraceptives), there are plenty of deer, but little opportunity.
#56
DanesDad
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 15:23:29 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

In the spring, when fish movge into shallow water for pre-spawn. Do you fish shallow? Or do you keep fishing 25FOW, and complain that the PF&BC, should make sure there's so many fish, some spill over to where you want to fish?

You are saying that hunters should find new places to hunt when their old spots dry up? Easier said than done, and not nearly as easy as switching from deep divers to shallow running lures in the same body of water.
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thedrake
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 20:12:43 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: SilverKype



Guess I get confused every year when harvest data is released and folks start yackin'.. like they expected to the buck harvest to jump to 160,000 or something. Then the same guys that say the reporting is flawed, use the numbers they want, to satify their agenda, but yet the numbers are flawed.




just thought this one deserved a quote...
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thedrake
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 20:53:25 (permalink)
This was one of the worst seasons for me as far as weather goes. I cant rememmber how many Saturdays were rained out for me in archery season, but it was more than I can remember happening any other year. Combine that with the weather on the first day or two of firearms season, and you've got a recipe for fewer deer killed.

Less people in the woods trying to kill deer means less deer will be killed.

I get a good laugh when I hear people complain about the low buck and doe harvest numbers, especially when those same guys constantly complained in the past saying we need to kill less deer. So, we killed less deer and now their mad about it, yet if we would have killed more deer than last year, they'd say we killed to many and we're decimating the herd.
#59
Dr. Trout
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RE: WOW! Congratulations Pa Game Commission 2010/03/24 21:17:47 (permalink)
I get a good laugh when I hear people complain about the low buck and doe harvest numbers, especially when those same guys constantly complained in the past saying we need to kill less deer.


I thought this one needed quoted.. GREAT POST !!!!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/03/24 21:18:04

DR. TROUT'S OUTDOORWORLD MESSAGE BOARD


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