Dr. Trout
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 09:29:31
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 09:43:37
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just another comment to add for WF's question about why older bucks...
A whitetail buck will follow a roughly predictable pattern of antler development with increasing antler growth up to about his 6th or 7th year.
At that time, the ravages of age begin to show in a declining rack. One factor sometimes overlooked in the age/antler development matter is the time of year the buck is born. This directly relates back to the previous rut and estrous cycle. If the doe was not bred in the first primary rut and was bred in a later estrous cycle, sometimes even as late as February, then the resulting fawn will be nearly 3 months behind developmentally.
When fawns conceived in the primary rut are going into their second fall they will likely have forked antlers, possibly 6 or 8 points.
Fawns conceived in later estrous periods might only have spikes in their second fall.
However, this developmental gap seems to narrow after the second fall.
The only way you can influence antler development with regard to age is to pass up younger bucks.
In otherwise normal conditions you can expect to see some animals in record-book proportions starting around 4 1/2 years of age, rarely sooner.
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SilverKype
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 10:03:37
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
As promised here's the reply to s-10's post ---
doc, that is the concern and you know it. Better yet, you say Kip is your buddy and have posted his answers to your questions before so pose that question to him without suggesting what to say. Pose this question---- ("understanding that point restriction is the easiest to implement do you have (some) concern that shooting off the better 1-1/2 year olds will lead to smaller deer.") You claim I am reading something into the article that's not there and I claim you are trying to change the meaning of what he is saying. Lets see what the guy who wrote it says.
Should I now say I told you so ... or is it finally plain to see S-10 reads things that are not there ?????
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Removing the best 1.5-year-old bucks could cause problems down the road.
The question is, how do you define the "best" yearlings? Are you referring to the ones with the best survival skills? The ones with the best body weights? The ones with the best antlers? Or some other trait or combination of?
Kip Adams
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Fanastic response.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 10:20:14
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Kip is a STAND-Up guy.... I have learned alot from him over the years, "my guys" at the PGC know their stuff too but are not as free with permission to post some of their replies... they save them for the deer open houses , seminars, publications etc... but they do appreciate my support and like it when I say "folks at the PGC say ".... You should see the list of questions I have for when I get to spend some time with Kip one-on-one next week.. I sent him a thank you this morning and a link to this thread .. I don't know if he will reply... but if he does and I can I'll share his thoughts...
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 11:11:25
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Kip says that removing the best 1-1/2 year olds could cause some problems down the road without elaborating on what they are. He says removing large numbers of better deer leaving the smallest is a problem. Antler point restrictions targets only the better antlered bucks and leaves ALL the spikes and y's to breed yet he says he is not concerned about it and out program doesn't do that. Seems like a number of counterdictory statements to me even knowing the buck is only half of the equation and not all spikes have poor genes. Points to Doc for knowing what he would say.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 11:27:50
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leaves ALL the spikes and y's to breed NOT true exactly... many 1.5 years old that are AR legal survive too.... remember only about 50% of the buck harvest is 1.5 year old....and that's probably about the same ( 50%) of the number of 1.5 year olds that survive and surely you do not believe they would all be sub-APR bucks.. no 1.5 year old 6s or 8s or bigger survive ???? ??? And how about those older wiser bucks that we see all summer and never see in season or hear of getting shot.. they do not breed ???? and just how many of the mature older bucks survive... IMHO we really do not know because having the number of them pre-season that we have now is a situation we had not had in years past... In years past we harvested 80% of ALL LEGAL BUCKS available.... I do not recall such a figure being "put out there" now.... it what % of the total harvest each age group makes up... If some one has info on what % of the legal available bucks we are harvesting NOW... please let me know ..... off to work and sportsmens meeting tonight.. so....see ya all tomorrow ....  one last thought.... rememebr no matter what .... 90% of the breeding is done before any of the 1.5 year olds get shot....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/02/03 11:31:22
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 11:37:34
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It is not going to happen overnight because of all the variables but can be a long term problem which may be what Kip is refering too. Kip also said he is not concerned from "A HIGH GRADING" standpoint without mentioning from what standpoint he may be concerned.
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 11:46:36
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90 percent of the breeding may or may not be done before any of the 1.5 year olds get shot with the RIFLE (I would have to see current proof of that)but 25% of the AR legal bucks that are killed get shot with the BOW and the rut normally peaks AFTER BOW SEASON. Also most of the does that get bred in the second or third estros period get bred by the non legal bucks.
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World Famous
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 12:32:44
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As far as does that are bred in Feb. or Jan. the survival of the fawns would have been taken into account in the mortality study[If this wasn't taken into account, the study should be considerd tainted].This would happen whether the deer population is too low or too high. As I said Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest. Also, the idea of larger deer eating more of the available food. Is there any studies on this? And any study of the breeding habits of 5,6 or 7 yearold bucks in the deer population aas compared to the percentage of breeding by bucks from 1 to 4 years old?
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 13:07:13
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Found this while looking for something else. Only one side of the story but includes the first actual poll I know of regarding hunters opinion of AR. A Point of Contention in Western Pennsylvania - NRAHuntersrights.org ... A 40 percent decline in the buck harvest over that time period ... hunter spends deciding if a buck is legal ... The last time I hunted in PA, we put on a drive and a nice buck ran ... www.nrahuntersrights.org/Article.aspx?id=2680 · Cached page
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SilverKype
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 13:19:48
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ORIGINAL: S-10
90 percent of the breeding may or may not be done before any of the 1.5 year olds get shot with the RIFLE (I would have to see current proof of that)but 25% of the AR legal bucks that are killed get shot with the BOW and the rut normally peaks AFTER BOW SEASON. Also most of the does that get bred in the second or third estros period get bred by the non legal bucks.
WHAT ?!?!?!?!? AND WHAT ??!!? Cut 25% in half if you want to know yer WMU bow kill for the last 3 years. If a late doe is bred by a non-legal buck, so what ? Do older bucks have better genes than youngens ?
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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DarDys
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 13:43:46
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The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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heyiknowyou
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 13:46:46
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
Do older bucks have better genes than youngens ? Â
of course they do, they got bigger horns and therefore better genes...duh 
post edited by heyiknowyou - 2010/02/03 13:47:46
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 14:16:04
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Silver-- Many of the non legal bucks are the scrubs, most of the good legal bucks are in the freezer. If you don't like my numbers count them yourself. I read the 25% on a PGC site a couple years ago but add these babies up. PA GAME COMMISSION RELEASES 2008-09 DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES 03/18/09 PA GAME COMMISSION RELEASES 2008-09 DEER HARVEST ESTIMATES 03/18/09 ... 52 percent of the 2008-09 antlered harvest ... antlered, 4,400 antlerless; archery, 750 antlered ... pennsylvaniaoutdoor.com/paforum/index.php?topic=432.0
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SilverKype
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 14:47:36
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What is a scrub S-10 ? A young buck ? I don't define that as a scrub but a young buck. Infact, I can count on one hand how many "scrubs" I've seen in my life. Show me a "scrubby" 4 year old buck.
I've already added up the numbers for the past 2 seasons. 2G buck bow kill is 12%. 4D is 17%. That's our WMUs. Your 25% would come from inflated SRA numbers where rifles aren't legal, and bow seasons are different than the rest of the state. It's not accurate to say all those bucks were killed before the rut. Further, they are tiny compared to the rest of the state and unique, which is why their seasons are so different. I hope we can agree that we only can relate to where we hunt. You're using data from elsewhere to support you argument.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 15:20:08
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I thought we were talking Pennsylvania, that's where we live. Statewide the buck archery kill is a bit over 25%, in my area, 1B, it's over 26%. Ohio is closing in on 30%. You are correct that there is a wide variation in the archery kill by WMU which except for the SRA's came as a surprise to me. Looks like folks don't like to travel to the forests to bow hunt. I can make a bit more sense of a few of your arguments by looking at the bow kill numbers by WMU. The 25% looks like a good number for a lot of the state with the SRA's offsetting the central states low numbers.
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/03 15:26:17
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Ironhed
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/04 00:27:27
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What is your definition of a "scrub", S-10?
Ironhed
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tmiller
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/04 07:03:52
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In my book a scrub is a buck that is at least three or four years old, that has only spikes or little y's. Big bodied but very little antler on it's head.
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/04 08:21:37
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Under current hunting rules a scrub to me is any two year old buck that doesn't have enough points to meet antler restrictions. In the area I live and hunt we have always had a lot (not all)of two types of bucks. One type is the 1-1/2 year olds with small tight racks with 8-12 points most of which get shot their first year. The other type is wide racks with 5-6 points that get wider and heavier but with the same number of points. These are the bucks that under the 8 point rule live to pass on their traits until someone shoots them by mistake or purpose. Some make 20". I saw a total of 5 of these while hunting this year either 2 or 3 years old judging by body size. Tried to get the grandson on them but couldn't make it happen. I can't comment on any areas but the ones I am familiar with.
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SilverKype
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/04 08:48:02
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As for the two year old bucks with 5-6 points. A deers skeletal system matures at 3. If the body is not healthy, the antler size does without. That's a proven fact. The average man's skeletal system matures around 18. So, if 1 deer year = 6 man years. You tellin' me you'd tell a 12 year old boy not to pursue a career in basketball because he's not tall enough at 12 years old ? As for the 3 year old buck with 5-6 points. Are you even sure this is all because of genetics. I don't think you are, because nobody is. Does feed matter ? We got a few, very few bucks that never get four to a side where I hunt. It's very rare but it happens. The average buck dispresal rate for my area around is 3 miles. So, I certainly hunt the area bucks future offspring. And in those areas, I've seen a total of two scrubs... by your definition. Here is one.. A 3.5 year old 6 point. 
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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S-10
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/04 09:01:58
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I see that type every year. Found a dead 17" 6 in extended season. The tight 8-12's have been around since at least the 70's. The 5-6's didn't become obvious until the start of AR . The buck your showing would make most folks very happy. To me, where I hunt it may as well be a spike. One thing I forgot to mention is the 5-6's do not have brow tines so for me at least the fix is easy, just count the top points and make the area three on a side AR. Remember, the same two types of bucks share the same area so yes, I would say it is genetics as opposed to feed.
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MuskyMastr
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/10 13:09:06
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Dr. Trout,
When you get the chance I would like to know what data Adams is using to make his determination that PA's regulations are not doing that. Not saying I am questioning him, I just think a blanket answer such as that should have some sound data to back up that conclusion.
Better too far back, than too far forward.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/10 14:19:09
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Musky ---
Kip is busy right now with the sports show giving presentations (2 a day) so I will try to get a response after the show closes....
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MuskyMastr
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RE: 2010 QDMA DEER REPORT ----
2010/02/10 14:20:58
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Better too far back, than too far forward.
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