Why HR/AR isnt popular

If you read hunting publications and magazines and such, it becomes obvious that to score consistently on big deer a lot of time must be expended. Securing permission to hunt on different properties, scouting and setting up stands is a major investment in time. Successful hunters spend many days in the woods before hunting season even starts. It's almost a year round venture.

Now go back to the "glory years" (before AR/HR). Back then, guys that worked five days a week didn't need to spend hundreds of hours in the woods in order to be successful. In fact, most, if not all, of their pre season scouting occurred on the four saturdays of the traditional small game season (when they weren't in fact scouting at all but chasing rabbits, pheasants, grouse and soforth), and the weekend between thanksgiving and the start of rifle. Once the buck season started, they often returned to time proven, traditional areas to deer hunt, often the very same stands would be used year in and year out.

So, why did that work? Because there were SO MANY deer out there, that hunters could go to the same places year after year and have a good chance to see deer. Basically, if hunters could find a patch of woods in the mountains somewhere, and they sat there a while, they would see some deer. Woodsmanship helped, but wasn't a requirement.

Back then, a guy COULD spend hundreds of hours in the woods scouting and developing stands and creating perfect setups...many did. But a guy could also unpack his rifle the friday after thanksgiving, take it out the next day and sight it in, then head to a traditional spot on monday and probably score.

Now zoom up to the present. Deer populations are down dramatically. Even the staunchest PGC supporters must admit this. To deny this is to deny reality. The days of being a leisurely hunter who kills deer are all but gone. Now, you have to WORK to score. And even a big investment in time and effort doesn't guarantee anything. Hunting is no longer a casual thing, at least not for the guy who wants to kill a deer.

Not everyone has the time to spend 10-20 days in the woods before the season even starts. I know I dont. And since woodsmanship wasn't really needed in the glory years, those skills have deterioriated over the general population of hunters. Add in the changes on society where guys have to work longer and harder just to stay afloat and kids are into all kinds of different activities that bring more instant gradification and it is easy to see why the casual guy is disgusted with the state of hunting in PA.

The mistake the PGC made was to make hunting harder for the casual hunter. There are a lot of hard core guys out there but there are way more guys that hunt to relax-not work.
I dont consider them lazy. They do enough work at work to want to bust their humps doing what they are supposed to be doing to relax. What the PGC may have lost sight of is that the casual guy pays the bills. Maybe he's the guy they need to take care of.

A good example of how it's done is the fish commission. They know which side of their bread is buttered. They make sure that streams are stocked-even streams that cant support trout year round. They load up urban waters where a wild trout hasn't lived in a hundred years. They dump hundreds of thousands of smolts into the tribs. Why? To appease the guy fishing for stripers at Raystown? To help the fellow who fishes for muskies on the Allegheny? The pymatuning ice fisherman? I doubt it. Those guys are gonna buy fishing licenses anyway. They stock trout to "reel in" the thousands of casual anglers who will probably only fish on opening weekend. Because THOSE guys buy the most licenses. Is there not a lesson here?

DanesDad
Well put.... You hit the nail on the head

you talking about the guy who was using the single shot TC slug gun?

ORIGINAL: sugarfuzz12

good read danes and good point. pa sold the most licience in the country for years not because of big bucks. because you could shoot deer and have a good expierence. i almost **** myself today, i saw a show on verses hunting big bucks in pa, problem was the guy hunting was using a shotgun in october hunting bucks. passed on 2 monster 3.5 yr olds with drop tines to shoot a 5.5 yr old. not even close to legit the leaves were still green.  not even close to being the norm for a pa hunter. sorry for the rant but for the normal pa hunter its not tv. how many of you can shoot monster bucks with guns in october? join the real world with the rest of us!

I agree....Good post DD........
 
Think about how many traditions are dying because of this.........How many people use to "go down to camp" the day after thanksgiving to small game hunt and look for a spot to deer hunt just like you said.......That no longer happens....People are so discusted that they don't even want to go anymore...I know some people that have a camp with 11 other people (11 other camps) in tidioute, they were the only ones to shoot a deer....they were the only ones to see a deer the whole season.....they saw 1 deer between all those guys............. it's ashame....    PA was never about "monster bucks" and never will be........It doesn't have to be a 160" whitetail to be a monster to some people.....

ORIGINAL: DanesDad


The mistake the PGC made was to make hunting harder for the casual hunter.

 
 
Nice post DD, but I don't agree with this statement.   I mean, I agree, but there was an underlying cause.
 
 
Ultimately, the PGC screwed up by letting the deer herd explode and not managing them with the habitat.   The 3 day doe season, and the one deer and yer done concept is what spoiled PA hunters..   It's like giving a kid a bunch of candy then taking most of it away after realizing sugar is not good for yer teeth.  
 
 
Just cause I feel like ranting..
 
As we all know, the habitat in and around pittsburgh at current day is generally considered good.   I need not walk all properties to understand such.  The number of deer coming from thse areas speaks volumes about the habitat and hunting pressure.   The embyro counts on roadkill don't lie.  However, in decades to come, if those deer herds continue to grow, you're gonna hear the pittsburgh hunters struggling to find deer.  At present day it may be hard for some to comprehend, but when the browse disappears, the deer numbers drop.
 
I'm fortunate in that even in today's central PA hunting, I'm still able to go "back in time" so to speak and hunt properties (one in particular) where deer are everywhere.   It accounts for less than 1% of my hunting time annually, but I spend enough time there (and with others) to get the jist of what's happening.  This is a place where some hunters don't like others shooting doe.  Where it's just like the good 'ol days but with the addition of antler restrictions.  The folks who have hunted the property for decades (myself 2 decades) have witnessed the changes of what 60 deer per square mile do to habitat.  Many don't care..they don't want to, THEY JUST WANNA DRINK BEER AND SHOOT DEER.  Others, see the changes.   They also understand that deer don't do well in mature forests.  It's not fair to compare year to year but as the decades go by, the woods get more and more open, and despite the attitude of many not shooting doe, the deer numbers get less and less.
 
I know HR isn't the most popular item on the menu, and can be improved, but I still applaud the PGC's efforts.   And that's coming from a guy who went into November 12 of bow season seeing a total of 7 deer and went the first, second, and first Saturday of rifle not seeing a single one.   I know what deer are there, where I hunt public property, and I know I'd be lying if I was to blame the PGC for my lack of deer sightings this year.

DD, you are THE MAN!!! As an added point, the north central counties counted a lot on the revenue the deer season brought in. Look at the posts of the deer camps and the reduction of the amount of hunters. I'm sure the continued decline will continue to adversly affect the economy in these areas. The insurance co. and the timber co. don't give a rats butt about this but I'm sure the PGC has been hearing from them in the last 5 or 10 years on a regular basis in front of or behind the scenes.

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

ORIGINAL: DanesDad


The mistake the PGC made was to make hunting harder for the casual hunter.

Nice post DD, but I don't agree with this statement.   I mean, I agree, but there was an underlying cause.


Ultimately, the PGC screwed up by letting the deer herd explode and not managing them with the habitat.   The 3 day doe season, and the one deer and yer done concept is what spoiled PA hunters..   It's like giving a kid a bunch of candy then taking most of it away after realizing sugar is not good for yer teeth.  


Just cause I feel like ranting..

As we all know, the habitat in and around pittsburgh at current day is generally considered good.   I need not walk all properties to understand such.  The number of deer coming from thse areas speaks volumes about the habitat and hunting pressure.   The embyro counts on roadkill don't lie.  However, in decades to come, if those deer herds continue to grow, you're gonna hear the pittsburgh hunters struggling to find deer.  At present day it may be hard for some to comprehend, but when the browse disappears, the deer numbers drop.

I'm fortunate in that even in today's central PA hunting, I'm still able to go "back in time" so to speak and hunt properties (one in particular) where deer are everywhere.   It accounts for less than 1% of my hunting time annually, but I spend enough time there (and with others) to get the jist of what's happening.  This is a place where some hunters don't like others shooting doe.  Where it's just like the good 'ol days but with the addition of antler restrictions.  The folks who have hunted the property for decades (myself 2 decades) have witnessed the changes of what 60 deer per square mile do to habitat.  Many don't care..they don't want to, THEY JUST WANNA DRINK BEER AND SHOOT DEER.  Others, see the changes.   They also understand that deer don't do well in mature forests.  It's not fair to compare year to year but as the decades go by, the woods get more and more open, and despite the attitude of many not shooting doe, the deer numbers get less and less.

I know HR isn't the most popular item on the menu, and can be improved, but I still applaud the PGC's efforts.   And that's coming from a guy who went into November 12 of bow season seeing a total of 7 deer and went the first, second, and first Saturday of rifle not seeing a single one.   I know what deer are there, where I hunt public property, and I know I'd be lying if I was to blame the PGC for my lack of deer sightings this year.

 
Whoa.  A voice of reason.
 
Nice post.
 
 
.

Actually, the best deer hunting statewide for numbers of bucks killed and PGC record book bucks was 2000 and 2001. Hard to figure how that was possible when the habitat had been destroyed for decades.

I've been hunting for 45 season in Pa.and several years in W.V.,N.Y and Ohio.I've seen it all and killed a pile of deer( I will not quote the numbers because most of you will think it's B.S.) It a shame of what PGC let US HUNTERS do to the herd,we all bought into it and shot does,before the AR I only shot 4 bucks in Pa. that would be not legal now,2 spikes,and 2-5 pts,I've got a couple of bushel baskets of 7-9 pt bucks all before the AR, true most only have 12 -14 inch spreads,but a fair number are larger, I hunt mostly Beaver Co.and still see quite a few deer but put in some time.There's always been big bucks,my best deer was shot in 88,a very impresive 8 pt that's a 140 class deer,yes I've seen some big deer since the AR,but I saw some giants before,I agree with you DD,and most other comments.I hope PGC can change it around but I'm not to sure they will.

ORIGINAL: Big Tuna

I've been hunting for 45 season in Pa.and several years in W.V.,N.Y and Ohio.I've seen it all and killed a pile of deer( I will not quote the numbers because most of you will think it's B.S.) It a shame of what PGC let US HUNTERS do to the herd,we all bought into it and shot does,before the AR I only shot 4 bucks in Pa. that would be not legal now,2 spikes,and 2-5 pts,I've got a couple of bushel baskets of 7-9 pt bucks all before the AR, true most only have 12 -14 inch spreads,but a fair number are larger, I hunt mostly Beaver Co.and still see quite a few deer but put in some time.There's always been big bucks,my best deer was shot in 88,a very impresive 8 pt that's a 140 class deer,yes I've seen some big deer since the AR,but I saw some giants before,I agree with you DD,and most other comments.I hope PGC can change it around but I'm not to sure they will.

You are the kind of guy that will probably continue to by a license and hunt under any conditions. So am I (tho not with anything near your success level). But we aren't carrying the PGC financially. It's those weekend warriors that do. Because there is way more of them than there are of us. Way more. Even though I dont have a problem with how the PGC is doing this and believe that ultimately it is moving in the right direction, I think they are alienating their main source of revenue. It seems like financial suicide at a time when finances are lean anyway.

Actually I have to admire them somewhat for sticking to their guns in the face of how doing so could ultimately ruin them. They must really believe in this!

So what you're saying DD is that hunting, isn't ( shouldn't be ) about hunting,  ( and the experience that goes along with it ). It's about making a kill, and heading home with your "trophy".

"3. AR alone probably would have been fine and more accepted if the PGC didn't allow so many doe tags. Protecting yearling bucks forced too many unsuccessful buck hunters to shoot 1 or 2 more doe than they usually would have. Couple this with more tags and we have what many of you are observing. I realize this was the full intention of AR/HR. Let the hunters do the dirty work and we can sit here guilt free in the name of conservation. I know no one 'forced' the good people of PA to shoot does. Too many of us live in the moment, not the future. I think the conservation part of HR could have been achieved more subtlely and have a better outcome if it was eased into rather than jumping in with both feet."

I agree with that one.

""Every PGC employee who has ever tried this has lost thier job.""




tried what  ????


AR ???   ....

if it were AR he was flat out lying.. we have had different  forms of AR restrictions before....

and no one was fired ?????

You must also remember Dr Alt was the PGC Black Bear Biologist.. and was not fired either... and has been quoted as saying he did not know bears ate fawns....  ??

I heard him twice and talk to him once.. he never claimed to be an expert on whitetail deer.. he was the "spokesman" chosen by the PGC to present the DMP...

and you also must remember he was the one that threw that 1.6 million deer figure to the general public.. not the PGC.. but the PGC did not "throw him under the bus" for saying something stupid like that.. they just let it ride..........

the hr/ar does not work for everyone. and it will never make EVERYONE happy. the thought of putting meat on the table or a kid seeing the herds of 30-40 doe walk by the stand has been put off, for the "trophy deer hunter" and the factor of the pgc wanting to doe herd to be tremendously reduced.

I love it when I'm talking to somebody about HR and they're talking about how much harder it is now to see deer, then I ask "did you get a buck this year" and they reply "No, I filled all my doe tags, but that was the only three deer I saw".  Some hunters are just never going to get it.