Another question

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indsguiz
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2007/08/27 22:22:38 (permalink)

Another question

Gentlemen,
     Just got off the phone with my friend the Non-fisherman.  It seems his camp is located just upstream from Pulaski, before you get to the road & interstate bridges.  My Question:  Is the river wadeable in this area or is it boat only.  Can you fish from the bank?  Are spinners and live bait allowed in this area?  My buddy wants to know if you can fish the shore in a lawn chair  and drink beer?  He sees people "fishing" this way and he wonders if they are fishing for salmon.
      My friend has agreed to provide the riverside camp if I provide the fishing rods, lures, ect.  But I don't want to put the guy right in to Fly Fishing his first time out for salmon.  I can bring the small boat or we can just wade.  I prefer wading if it is possible.  Ray, your thoughts?

Illegitimis Non carborundum
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    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/28 07:40:17 (permalink)
    indsuiz -
     
    The majority of the Salmon River is wade-able.  If you are talking about the intersection (Roughly) of Interstate 81 and Route 13, that area has some very nice holes, from the Papermill, Clarks Falls, the mini- black hole, and the trooper hole (which is right under I-81). 
     
    The only area that is suspect to wading is west (toward the lake) of the Route 3 bridge, which is the esturary.  That is where you will see the boats. 
     
    If you buddy sees people fishing from lawn chairs using live bait and spinners, then they are not fishing for Salmon.  My guess is that he sees that type of activity from May through August when the river is filled with small mouth bass.  Once the Salmon begin to enter the river the smallies run...
     
    Now, you can use a spinner (if you choose - and I don't know how successful you will be) for Salmon, but it can NOT be a treble hook.  It must be a singular hook.  You can check out the regs. for further details on equipment. 
     
    As for fighting a 20lbs+ king from a lawn chair, please video tape it and immediately post it to YOU-TUBE, as it will be hilarious.  I think this would be a very UN-successful method.
     
    In all seriousness - I would teach your friend the C&D method for Salmon, it will take him about 1 to 2 hours to get used to it.  Go ahead and wade in the river, and he will have a blast... once he gets into fish, he will live at his cabin in the fall.
     
    Fish Off...
    MattyD.
     
     
    #2
    indsguiz
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/28 10:44:32 (permalink)
    MattyD.
         C&D, is that:  Cast and Drag, Catch and Devour, Chuck & Duck, WHAT?  I'm looking for the easiest way to get the man onto some fish in the shortest learning curve.  I'm thinking a medium/medium heavy rod about 7-1/2 feet and a nightcrawler under a small float.  I'll be fly fishing but I want him to experience fishing.  MY other choice is a pin minnow on the same rod, or a yo-zuri on a noodle.   MY guess is his camp is close to Rt. 11.  BTW thanks for your help.  I'm entering this thing totally blind, and I need HELP.  The biggest thing is; I don't know the water.
    post edited by indsguiz - 2007/08/28 10:45:37

    Illegitimis Non carborundum
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    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/28 11:40:36 (permalink)
    indsguiz -
     
    Route 11 - will put you in the center of town, which means everything is accessible to you.  The Salmon River from the lake to the Hatchery is about 13 miles long. There are many access points to the river, with either no or a very short walk in. 
     
    C & D - is Chuck and Duck.  Do you know how to teach that?  Is that a method that you use and are comfortable with?  If not I can give you very basic instructions, on the set up and the teaching of it.  I am NOT questioning your knowledge, only offering help to make this a good/great experience for your friend.
     
    You will not be able to use a yo-zuri on the river.  It is a treble hook, which is illegal on the Salmon River.  The idea of putting a nightcrawler on a line under a float may produce a brown or a steelie, but not a king (usually) - never say never because stranger things can happen. 
     
    I have brought complete strangers to the fly fishing world to the Salmon River and taught them the Chuck and Duck method and had them moving fish and fighting fish within two hours.  No, they did not land fish...that is a process that you need to learn...
     
    A few questions for you:
    1) When are you coming up?
    2) Am I reading this right  - as you say you are totally blind and that you do not know the water?  So you have never fished the SR (Salmon River)? 
     
    Your responses will help me lead you into fish the fastest way.
     
    Fish Off...
    MattyD.
     
    ps. - I like others on this board have been on this river for more than 15 years... so ask every question that you can...
    #4
    indsguiz
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/28 14:02:52 (permalink)
    MattyD.
             Many years ago, late 70's early 80's, we used to go up to Pulaski and then up to a dam where everyone was snagging.  I never liked the snagging part so I used to walk way downstream and fly fish the creek.  To tell you the truth I don't even remember the name of the creek we were on, or where exactly we were.  All I know is we stayed in Pulaski and drove to the snagging area.  We also went up to somewhere by Watertown where there were rapids and I did real well there on a big white bucktail streamer.  Sorry I can't be more specific.  It's been like 30 years.  However If i drove there I could recognize the landmarks. 
           Right now we are debating going up to the Salmon or over to the Erie tribs.  Two of my friends are from PA so a license will be cheaper for them in Erie and since I'm buying a NR license either place it makes no difference to me.  But I'm just there to supply fishereese and help my friends out.  I still can't imagine having a camp on one of the best salmon streams in the US for 20 years and never fishing!  They start going up in May and close the place up the 1st week of October?
    BTW:  a few years ago in Erie I saw a friend catch what I thought was a king on a nightcrawler.  He just threw it out and the fish actually "broke formation" in the pool and chased it down.  Biggest fish I've ever seen come out of the tribs.  Wore my friend out, he was used to panfish.  There are supposed to not be any kings in Erie, or so I'm told, but this fish had the black mouth and Kyped jaw like a king.  Tasted good to.
    post edited by indsguiz - 2007/08/28 14:09:44

    Illegitimis Non carborundum
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    rockfish123
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/28 19:16:02 (permalink)
    Hey mattyD, I noticed that you stated that the yozuri could not be used due to treble hooks.  I was wondering if there would be any legal issues if two of the hooks were removed from the treble, or replaced with single hooks, would there still be issues...  The other reason I'm asking is a bud of mine claims he uses rapala floating stick baits (approx 5 inches; wild fire color) on the Sandy and has amazing results!!!
    #6
    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/29 06:51:52 (permalink)
    Rockfish123 -
     
    My understanding of the rules is YES!  If you modify the lure- removing the treble to a singular hook - than you CAN use it. 
     
    If someone knows otherwise - please post...
     
    Fish Off..
     
    MattyD.
     
    #7
    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/29 07:59:24 (permalink)
    Indsguiz -
     
    -  Hooked jaw - black gums is usually a Coho - that is the most aggressive species of salmon and it is "possible" that they would hit a nightcrawler. 
     
    Ok back to the Salmon River... I think your best bet - truthfully - is too hire a guide for your trip.  The guides who serve this river will show you around, teach you very productive methods of fishing for Salmon, put you on fish and make sure that you have the best chance of landing fish. 
     
    If you are going to tackle this yourself, then you will really need to know how to C & D (Chuck and Duck) for the easiest, quickest method of getting to fish and your best chance of hooking up.
     
    The basic set up is as follows (I mainly fish the DSR - so there is a caviat here):  usually a 9wt Fly rod will do the trick.  You will want ample backing, please have 30lbs backing spooled on the reel.  Next the fly line, some use weight forward - floating, and others use running line, your choice there.  At the end of the fly line, I like to tie in a 2 foot piece of Red Amnesia line (this is mainly used as a marker for me and my netter to know where my fish is during a fight).  Attached to the Amnesia tie in a 3 foot section of 12lbs Maxima (some people will use 15lbs and others will use 10lbs or even 8lbs).  I then attach a swivel (this is a must if you are fishing the DSR) and off of the swivel tie in a 4 foot section of 10lb Maxima and attach your fly.  Above the swivel, you can add your split shot.  The amount of split shot will vary depending on the flow of the river and the type of water that you are fishing.  I can't tell you what to add... but I can tell you what it should feel like.  Remove enough line off of the reel so that you would have the equivalent of two rod lengths of line in the water.  You are not casting but flipping the line out there to a specific spot in the river.  Thinking about it as a clock... you would want to flip out to 10 and drift down to 3.  When your weight reaches the river bed... you should feel a "tick" then the current will move it downstream and you will feel another "tick", then a short while later you may feel a third and maybe even a fourth "tick" before you strip in your line and re-cast.  So, it should be something like... tick---pause----pause---tick---pause---pause---tick---pause---pause---tick---pause.  You will want to keep your forefinger and thumb of your free hand (the one not holding the rod) holding the line and you will want your rod tip up.  This will allow for you to "feel" everything... If during your drift you feel a "THUD"  you most likely just had a fish move through or hit your fly, slowly strip back and keep the rod tip up, when the line gets tight, give a quick twitch with the rod tip that will set the hook.  Hang on - because the ride of your life is about to begin.
     
    Do not horse the fish in.  That will only lead to a broken leader or worse yet a shattered fly rod.  Do not place your upper hand on the graphite of the rod as this is a sure-fire way to snap a rod with these fish.  If you have NO control of the fish, it is most likely foul hooked... aim the rod tip at the fish and slowly pull the line... this will break the leader at the swivel.  If the fish, upon setting the hook,  comes up and shakes its head or drives it tail to the top of the water splashing around, you "most likely" have a clean hook, continue fighting.
     
    Snagging is illegal and has been for quite some time.  Unfortunately, there is still this theory that it is the only way to "catch" these fish, so you will still find it going on - but to a much lesser degree than it was, and it is not a blatant. 
     
    I hope this all helps... ask more questions if you have them...
     
    Fish Off...
    MattyD.
     
    #8
    salmotrutta
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/29 16:48:04 (permalink)
    Great info. there MattyD..  Golf clap... What weight amnesia do you use? I know it comes in different #'s.
    I sometimes use it while nymphing pools in the winter fishing for Trout. It helps to detect those subtle takes in the Cold. I may give it a go up there as well. 

    Lyrical
    #9
    JeffL
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/29 17:02:38 (permalink)
    If you don't want to use a fly rod- Use spin gear- 12-15 lb main line- Swivel - then 4 ft leader and fly or eggsack.

    use tag of swive to add weight- just enough to get down and tick bottom a couple times in your drift.

    There are so many Salmon in the river, I don't think you need to hire a guide- Steelhead another story.
    #10
    indsguiz
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/29 19:46:15 (permalink)
    MattyD,
         e-mail me please.  hemilovr@hotmail.com.  Maybe we can get together.  Like to see your schedule.  Do you guide?  I'd like to discuss rod weights and line weights with you.

    Illegitimis Non carborundum
    #11
    hot tuna
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/29 21:48:23 (permalink)
    matty:
    not trying to bust on you but to help folks understand
    there are 2 things mistaken in your set up, 1 of which would give you a ticket and fine:
    first it is not necessary to use a swivel nor a rule in DSR if fly fishing
    second you state that you put the sinker above the swivel , then attach a 4 foot leader to the swivel leading to your fly(bait)
    this surely will give you a fine by attaching your sinker above 4 feet, be it fixed or sliding
    if you insist on using a swivel put your weight below which is what's required for spin fisherfolks
    i think that's where your getting confused on the swivel rule
     
    i strongly urge people to read the regulations carefully and understand them fully, just because you may see someone else doing something does not mean its right.
     
     
     

    "whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
    #12
    metalslayer
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/29 22:48:04 (permalink)
    Yup above 4' will get u a fine--otherwise nice post helping out.

    Steel on a pin---so easy a caveman can do it.
    #13
    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/30 06:44:56 (permalink)
    Salmotrutta -
     
    I use 25lb Amnesia - again it is more for a line change and color marking, not so much for fighting fish...
     
     

    In Life We All Have Choices. I Choose to Fish!

    Fish Off...
    MattyD.
    #14
    waDerboy
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/30 06:50:48 (permalink)
    Law is weight no further than 4 feet from hook so weight asbove the swivle and then 4 feet of tippet would earn a ticket. I rarely go longer than 3 feet anyways.
    DSR justs mandates a break in the line not a swivle unless they have changed their minds.
    #15
    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/30 06:54:52 (permalink)
    Tuna & Metal  -

    Thanks for the "fix" in my post... Interesting on the swivel thing... So, you can put a "tag" on the swivel and attach a split shot... but placing the split shot at the top of the swivel is illegal.  My BAD - but that is the setup shown to me by several guides... OOPS! - That must be way I have gotten away from C&D and gone to Spey Fishing... no split shot, just different sink tips at different rates.  Certainly no where near the hook ups - but more relaxing...


    Also - On the "Big Board" when entering the DSR... there is a portion that describes terminal tackle - including a swivel when fishing the DSR.  I always thought this was for Spin and Fly... certainly not a major issue, at least it provides a break point in the line for a clean release from a foul hooked fish.
    *** EDIT *** WaDerboy - posted just as I was typing - he fixes my mis-understading about the break point in the line at the DSR - Thanks!

    post edited by MattyD. - 2007/08/30 07:13:01

    In Life We All Have Choices. I Choose to Fish!

    Fish Off...
    MattyD.
    #16
    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/30 07:10:30 (permalink)
    indsquiz -
     
    I will email you later this morning... No I am not a guide, but I can give you a few names that will make your trip very enjoyable.  Of course..I am always willing to meet with a help out other anglers, to the best of my ability on the SR. 
     
    I will be up on the river from Sunday afternoon, September 30th fishing through Friday October 5th... I may fish again on Saturday October 6th - if I am not too burnt out...
     

    In Life We All Have Choices. I Choose to Fish!

    Fish Off...
    MattyD.
    #17
    waDerboy
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/30 07:23:37 (permalink)
    MattyD that is on the board as you stated but they just really want a break of some sort so that A) their 2 foot tippet minimum from weight to hook could be enforced and B) so that most line breakoffs would leave no more that 2 feet of mono in the river. They are not (as I know you know) storm troopers trying to ruin peoples day. They are just trying to improve the sportsmenship on that part of the river and keep the river and banks as clean as possible.
    #18
    MattyD.
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/30 07:41:32 (permalink)
    Thanks for the Clarification WaDerboy!  I just read that somehwere :)
     
    Actually to all - Again while WaDerboy was typing I went back to the Old Boards and found this link... http://www.fishusa.com/Discussion2/viewthread.asp?forum=AMB_AP329826884&id=18118 here you will find a great series of discussions, questions and answers.
     
     

    In Life We All Have Choices. I Choose to Fish!

    Fish Off...
    MattyD.
    #19
    salmotrutta
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    RE: Another question 2007/08/30 17:19:22 (permalink)
    LMAO! I remember that thread well. The key to the memory is Hot Tuna saying "Get a Life".


    Lyrical
    #20
    indsguiz
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    RE: Another question 2007/09/15 12:35:10 (permalink)
    Gentlemen,
         Well it looks like mother nature has made up my mind for me.  I will NOT be coming up to the Salmon River this year.  Even with a camp right on the river.  All the low water will make for a ZOO and I don't want my friend to be discomforted.  Thanks for everybodies help and suggestions.  Maybe see ya next year.  P.S.  I bought two new 9wt rod combos too.  Oh well They'll make dragging a steelie out of lake Erie that much easier.

    Illegitimis Non carborundum
    #21
    Lucky13
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    RE: Another question 2007/09/16 05:20:57 (permalink)
    IG- Based on the lawnchairs and opening and closing times, I'd wager your friend's camp is between Port Ontario and the Lake.  Unless you like still fishing, you would go upstream.  Nevertheless, an available camp during salmon season is a valuable asset, as for the next couple of weeks everything will be booked.  And there will be next years!
     
    L13
    #22
    10pts
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    RE: Another question 2007/09/16 19:07:52 (permalink)
    Matty.. does it have to be exactly  4 feet from the swivel?    and what is the BEST sized fly to use up there..  also  care to show me the way  up there if we meet on the river?  thanks 
    #23
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