ORIGINAL: Loomis

Rod Building in general is meticulous for anyone; if you want to be good at it and have a finished product.  Build a rod and put dots on it then get back to me if you want to actually be in a discussion about it.....

I'm not really interested in what is or isnt difficult for some kid making a handful of rods per year out of his residence, let alone that kid's opinions. I'm talking about the companies that make hundreds, if not thousands, and have entire facilities setup to do it, and their reasonings for withholding that seemingly simple feature from all but their highest-end wares. In all the decades of rod-making, it's somewhat likely that the collective wisdom, experience, and intuition of scores of rod-makers might have eclipsed that of a 20-somethings aspirant in the first decade (half decade?) of advanced mastery of the art, wouldn't you agree? Just because something is difficult for you doesnt mean its difficult for everyone. And any real reason you've given (eliminating the smug response of "you dont do it, so dont even ask about it, because nobody should explain anything to you"), has really only served to justify my question. I ask why its not done more, your response was that its a meticulous process to find the spine. Then, I totally skipped over the point that dots wouldnt even have to be on the spine, as long as they were aligned with each other, and went on to point out that, as tough as that may or may not be, you'd have to do that anyway, so why not mark the spot for the addition of some kind of marker at a later time?

I'd like to point out, too, that it is really an honest question. Maybe there really is something about placing a few dots that is incredibly challenging, that takes hundreds of dollars worth of time and skill and material to do properly. If there is, by all means enlighten me, I have only expressed doubt that this is the case and asked for reasons why we see the situation that we do. But if you do...please...spare the attitude.

k.. I'm ready

"The big companies" do not put the dots on their lower models because it takes too much time to do in order to keep the cost low, whether or not you want to believe that is up to you, but it's not as easy as you think.

First off, thanks for explaining your situation. My intent wasn't to imply that you were some kind of bum, but to get you off your high horse and realize that in the short time you've been at it, while you may know alot, most of the information you share is a simple regurgitation of things others have told you who've gained that knowledge for themselves. I havent been at fly tying very long at all, but I try to help out any beginner I can by passing along advice that helped me. I dont try to claim tips and techniques as things that I invented or to pass myself off as some kind of expert in the field. Seems like you've brushed shoulders with prominent people, so now you feel the need to talk down to anyone you feel you're now better than. Knowledgeable, certainly, but lacking in humility. I'm glad my little jab got the more or less intended response.

When I first asked my question, had you responded with a little less smugness, I was going to ask about the process of including the dots, in specifics, and specifically what about that process becomes so time intensive or requires such advanced technique. In fact, I've done quite a bit of reading about your craft and I have the highest degree of respect for the discipline and attention to detail that is demanded by the process. In the process of my reading I think I may have even PMed you a time or two asking about it because you do seem fairly knowledgeable, especially for a kid (yes, a kid). If I hadnt (cant remember, it was a while ago) its only because skip and other rod builders I'd contacted elsewhere had already answered the question for me. In short: I'm not saying your ability or accomplishments aren't significant. To the contrary, they're pretty impressive. But to come across as an old hand just because the person youre talking to probably doesnt know any better is petty at best and an insult to those who've helped you get to where you are at worst. I dont mind a little of the patronizing tone when I'm asking about a field I haven't had experience in, but to imply that I shouldn't ask a question because I dont know the answer is kind of rude, dont you think?

Aaaaaaanyway, getting back to what I'm trying to figure out...

My question isn't "does it take more time". Obviously it takes more time to include something than to skip it (and yeah, I pretty much get the idea of 'time is money') It just seems to me that it the inclusion of the dots comes with an inordinately large price hike in most companies' product lines.

...except Echo.

Why is it that so many companies cant include them on anythign but high-end, but Tim & Co. can put them on their entry-level stuff? Is it because they're a smaller scale operation to begin with? They use cheaper labor or materials? (Unlikely) Or have they found a cheaper way of doing things?

Ah, so on a large scale (most often encountered with the lower end rods), it's a matter of time more than money. They'll sell just as many without the dots as with them at that price range (where you cant really be all that picky), so if you can produce 5 million rods per year without dots and sell them all or produce and sell 4.5 million rods per year WITH dots...and still sell them all, the dots aren't helping.

In the high-end, then, I'd guess its just a matter of competition at that point. You have the capacity to produce more rods than you tend to sell at that price range, so you can take a little more time to get an edge on the competition in that range. And as soon as a significant portion of the community starts including it, it turns from a plus to a requirement in order to stay competitive.

Am I getting that right? Basically it has nothing to do with the manufacturing process itself, but rather its an issue on the business end?

nothing wrong with a little debate and no hard feelings, I just don't like to answer the same question 2 or 3 times hence my bitterness.

Definitely no feelings at all, man. No sense makin' enemies on the interwebs that you might otherwise get along with in person. I was kind of bummed that yet another thread was going south, but I still hadn't gotten the answer to the question I was asking, and when it seemed like I was being told to stop asking, yeah, I get kinda rankled. I'm glad to see that (hopefully), this is one thread that got a little heated, but managed to get back on track.

haha everyone was building up for the breakdown, sorry to disappoint everyone that knew me from the old boards.....

Im getting a little too mature in my "non-kid" age I guess...lol

your making me blush

People who know me know me know I'm a stand up guy, I'm not really too worried, but thanks for your input.

ORIGINAL: swinger

Are you going to pm the mod and complain about cold?

Swinger if your speaking to me.  Why would I.  I have no dog in this fight and I don't believe that any posts should be censored.  If you post, be man enough to stand behind it. If you can't then don't say it.    I don't think anyone here sad anything bad.  My comments to Loomis were in response to his potential future business.  It's clear from his posts and his website that he is new to the professional world of custom rod building.  I have been buying custom fishing rods for quite a while and believe me the choices in rod builders is wide open.  If he expects to pull a customer base from web forums (which clearly he does or he wouldn't have listed his website in his signature) then he needs to understand that every posts he puts up represents him as a person and businessman. 

Thats all, nothing more, nothing less.  I wish him the best of luck.

RS

Well to get this back on track, Im really considering getting the Echo 4wt Spey rod. It would be used for fishing the bigger waters for trout (Clarion, Alleghany) and possibly for streams around State college when I go there for school. (Would it be too big of a rod?) and also for throwing smaller smallie patterns and some light steelheading. What line would you put on this rod and which reel? I was looking at the Ross CLA or Lamson Konic, I already have a konic and love it. Id like to keep the total around $650? I can get the rod from ebay for $300. Thanks guys.

a 4 wt spey?  I would go with something atleast a little heavier that way you can cover the broad spectrum of water you are around and still have something for erie and ny.

From what I've seen, the typical spey rods start out at 6wt and go up from there. A 4wt spey is probably a rarity for a good reason, but that same rarity means it will be unique and distinctive and just might become your ideal favorite rod. If you've got the money and the desire to learn to use it properly, go for it! After all, trying something out of the ordinary and having it work out is one of the most rewarding aspects of fishing.

HC.......go cast a Beulah 4/5 wt switch rod.......might be just what you need..........it might just be the one stop shopping rod you are looking for.........

Just picked up my echo ion 7wt tonight...im really impressed I like it a lot more than I thought I would

I have a previous generation Echo 9' 6 wt  4 pc that was a demo that I got for a good price....I didn't know what to expect as I had never cast an Echo rod before and didn't know anybody else who had either.  I was very pleasantly surprised, they are great rods for the money (mine does have the alignment dots, which is a nice touch)  and imo casts as good as rods that cost quite a bit more.  I have a Sage Zaxis 6 wt to compare it to, and yes the Sage does outperform the Echo, but also cost 5x+ as much. 
 
As far as fishing Spring Creek goes, once again imo I'd be looking for a 3 wt in the 8'6"-9' range.....you will be dealing with some very spooky, very educated browns, and the less line splash you create with a lighter line, the better.  Not to mention you will be fishing over trico hatchs a lot of the time, very small flies to finicky fish, and the lighter rod will help in that regard.....great college choice for any fly fishing fan, thats for sure........

ORIGINAL: razmatazz05

 i also just got a reddington 4 piece with no dots.  makes lining up 4 pieces of rod prefectly a bit frustrating.  other than improvising on my own and making my own dots does anyone have and idears???  holla.

 
When you put the rod together put it together tip to butt instead of butt to tip.