DanesDad
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 3087
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/03/21 15:35:43
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/25 15:31:29
(permalink)
So, Doc, it seems that even with the longer antlerless season, hunters are not too discriminating when it comes to shooting BBs. It is more important for them to kill something, than it is to be picky. You see Doc, this is part of why so many people are against the PGC and what they are trying to do. Most hunters dont give a crap about the resource. They just want to kill something, so their friends and family will think they are good hunters. And they are upset because there are less deer now, so they kill less frequently, and their friends and family are starting to think that they cant hunt any more. Too many hunters have their EGOS wrapped up in whether or not they kill something.
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/25 23:08:06
(permalink)
wap... LOL.. no don't have the bible beside me but have been doing this for 8 years.... the fact that you claim the woods in your area have not changed for 30 years tells me all I have to know about those woods...poor habitat.. I got tired of going to meet guys and walk "their great woods" with my opinions.. most had no idea what species of trees, shrubs etc were growing there and even less at what deer prefer to eat. This may not be your case.... but I have found it so true so many times it's silly.... what is good wildlife habitat and what people see are like apples and oranges.... not every thing that is green is a food source for whitetial deer...
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/25 23:09:24
(permalink)
Danes Dad.. well said.. I agree...
|
jerminator7777
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 409
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2007/04/09 15:08:41
- Location: Pittsburgh, PA
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/26 01:58:41
(permalink)
Just a thought, not trying to start an argument or anything, but if you took a button buck or fawn in rifle you would be killing one deer. But if you killed a mature doe, you would realisticly be killing at least 3.
|
chasinrainbows
Avid Angler
- Total Posts : 189
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2000/09/14 10:12:36
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/26 18:56:09
(permalink)
BINGO, very well said jerm
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/26 20:25:21
(permalink)
But if you killed a mature doe, you would realisticly be killing at least 3. NO WAY is that true --------- #1... the doe would have to be a mature doe that had been bred not every doe gets bred here in Pa.... thanks to HR this is slowly getting better... but it is no where near 100% getting bred..... #2... the average mature does give birth to about 1.7fawns... so that would be 2.7 at the beginning of spring...BUT......... #3... 50% of all fawns born in the spring die.... so there is no way that you would bascially be killing 3..... at best on average you are only killing MAYBE 1.5 deer for the following season.... just the basic biologically facts about deer in Pa.........
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/26 20:26:50
|
KISHWAA
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 899
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2008/04/21 23:32:57
- Location: White Oak
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/26 20:54:28
(permalink)
im pretty sure killing a mature doe has a good effect on the population doc
|
jerminator7777
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 409
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2007/04/09 15:08:41
- Location: Pittsburgh, PA
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/26 23:08:55
(permalink)
Doc, im not trying to pick an arguement. Its seem like in most of your posts that is what you are trying to do. All I am saying is that if you want to kill the mature does that will be killing more than one deer at least, opposed to killing a young doe which has not bred. Since
post edited by jerminator7777 - 2008/10/26 23:19:22
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/27 08:09:20
(permalink)
I definitely am NOT trying to pick fights... just correcting stuff that is posted that is not scientifically correct... you wrote that it would be killing 3 not me..... As kishwaa posted killing the mature doe has many benefits to the herd... one of the best ones is it takes out a mature animal that eats twice as much as her fawns giving them (her fawns) a better chance to get enough food to survive winter... Trying to focus on young deer will also increase the number of BBs that are shot.... IMHO there are too many getting shot now.... guys have two weeks to shoot a doe... they should be more careful in IDing BBs... Lastly as a doe matures it has less young.. so harvesting the 2 to 3 year old does is the best thing to do....
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/27 10:38:10
(permalink)
The QDMA promotes harvesting an adequate number of female deer to keep populations in balance with the existing habitat. We generally recommend shooting the largest doe or does in a group because they are most likely adults. Adult does are the most reproductive segment of a deer population and their removal helps balance a herd with its habitat in the shortest time frame. The only exception to this general guideline would be in areas with low deer populations. In these areas, the harvest of does under 2½ years of age would be recommended because of their lower reproductive rates. Sounds like Doc and the PGC are still trying to get us to keep on reducing the deer herd.
|
bingsbaits
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5028
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/27 12:10:56
(permalink)
Lastly as a doe matures it has less young.. so harvesting the 2 to 3 year old does is the best thing to do.... At what age do they stop dropping twins??? 4-5-6 Sure are alot of those deer around. When was the last time you saw a 5 year old doe...Whats our average age deer 1 1/2.. You use the PGC averages to state your position. Which takes into account unbred does which are the younger ones not the older..
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/27 14:09:17
(permalink)
bing.. Most does do not have twins... and that applies to those on "deer farms" too.... In general they slow down on having fawns at 4 or 5.. again a statement that is NOT true... You use the PGC averages to state your position. Which takes into account unbred does which are the younger ones not the older I was using the figures from the road-kill studies done by WCOs each Jan-March... and they keep and report that info according to age and it is seperated into the various ages... and it is very very very rar here in Pa. that a fawn is bred her first fall.... A fawn born this past spring could/should be bred if the food sources allow it to reach 80 pounds by the end of the rut... this very rarely happens in Pa. BUT it is possible and I suspect we will start seeing fawns reaching a breeding weight of 80 pounds their first fall real soon.. As for average age of harvested deer.... the bucks are starting to be 2.5 years old as an average the antlerless is not doing as well... almost half of the antlerless harvested are less than 1 year old.... roughly 24% BBs and 22% female fawns...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/27 14:11:20
|
bingsbaits
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5028
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/27 15:19:00
(permalink)
Guess I'm just trying to play the odds and bet that an older doe might have twins in the spring and let her go and take a yearling that might not even be bred...And in archery you can be a little more discerning between the BB's and the doe...
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
|
S-10
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5185
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/27 15:51:55
(permalink)
If you take an older doe YOU ARE REDUCING the deer herd more than by taking a younger one. Reducing the deer herd WAS THE REASON Alt wanted the older doe taken and the younger ones left. The PGC is trying to downplay the negative effects of shooting the older doe but as the QDMA article I posted above states, taking the older doe is the best way to quickly reduce the population.
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/27 18:12:16
(permalink)
but as the QDMA article I posted above states, taking the older doe is the best way to quickly reduce the population. Not sure what article that's from but I know this is from an article by Kip Adams of the QDMA... and it may be the one you are refering to... and I do have his permission to post this article... NOTE it say to reduce to balance with habitat.... that's the key..... and he says in the "shortest time frame".... The QDMA promotes harvesting an adequate numbe of female deer to keep populations in balance with the existing habitat. We generally recommend shooting the largest doe or does in a group because they are most likely adults. Adult does are the most reproductive segment of a deer population and their removal helps balance a herd with its habitat in the shortest time frame. The only exception to this general guideline would be in areas with low deer populations. In these areas, the harvest of does under 2½ years of age would be recommended because of their lower reproductive rates. Selecting for the largest doe or does also minimizes the chance of harvesting a button buck and it provides the most meat for the table. The largest does however aren’t necessarily the oldest. Like humans, female deer come in many shapes and sizes. I have seen 3½ year old does win “heavy†doe contests where entrants ranged from 1½-6½+ years old. These deer were harvested on properties in close proximity to each other with comparable habitats, so the weight differences weren’t a function of nutritional differences. Conversely, I have recorded 75 lb. (dressed wt.) 5½ year old does from northern ranges. These deer were healthy and they had abundant kidney and body fat (2 measures of nutritional fitness), they were just small in stature. With a little training hunters can separate live antlerless deer by sex (female vs. buck fawn) and they can separate females into fawn, yearling, and 2½+ age classes. However, it is extremely difficult to accurately age live adult females to a specific year. For example, we can estimate a doe to be 2½+ years old based on body characteristics but it is difficult to identify whether she is actually 2½, 3½, 4½ or older. Fortunately, the oldest females aren’t necessarily the largest so when hunters select for the largest doe(s) they are automatically selecting across a range of ages. Harvesting deer from all age classes is good for the deer herd and it provides important data to use for establishing future antlerless harvest quotas. Even if hunters could accurately identify the oldest does in a population it would be impossible to remove all of them. Research projects have shown mature does can be extremely difficult to harvest. In captive studies, a mature doe is often the last deer remaining when all deer within an enclosure are harvested. Finally, removing some of the oldest does benefits hunters. Mature does that have lived under intense hunting pressure are master evaders and they teach their “tricks†to other deer in the group. This is one reason hunters see fewer does 1-2 years after initiating aggressive antlerless harvest programs. These populations probably contain fewer deer and the remaining does are much better at avoiding hunters. Thus it is good to remove some of these “masters†on a yearly basis. The take home message is it is extremely difficult if not impossible to correctly identify the oldest does in a deer population. Then, even if hunters could identify them it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to harvest all of them. So, continue harvesting an adequate number of does and be confident you’re doing the right thing by selecting for the largest doe(s) in the group. Kip’s Korner is written by Kip Adams, a Certified Wildlife Biologist and Northern Director of Education and Outreach for the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA). The QDMA is an international nonprofit wildlife conservation organization dedicated to ethical hunting, sound deer management and preservation of the deer-hunting heritage.
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/27 18:17:02
|
jlh42581
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1885
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2004/10/13 07:56:43
- Location: Bellefonte
- Status: offline
RE: No Deer in 2F ----
2008/10/29 09:52:31
(permalink)
There is a second rut, not just one there sanchez
|