No Deer in 2F ----

Wow, those mountain lions sure are reproducing fast.

Now your thinking like the PGC, you have 8 deer in your field so there must be that many all across 2F.
 
j/k don't get too worked up.  Thanks for the pic.

Jefferson County is still one of the top spots to find whitetail deer in Pa...

 
 
On or near POSTED property.

Esox... I knew you were kiddin....
 
And you are right.. there have been some GREAT bucks taken since the second year of AR around here ... and I keep telling folks a 2.5 year old buck or older is not as easy to hunt as a 1.5 year old..
 
We all got so use to shooting young 1.5 year olds it became like like a habit and we EXPECTED to get one .. and we took the first one that came along.... now many are passing on smaller ones because they know there are BIG BOYS around...
 
True HR reduced the number of deer to be seen.. but that was needed... but the population is once again begining to grow because the food sources are again growing at a rate to "keep up" with the number of deer in an area...
 
At least I know this is ture in MOST of 2F.. the ANF still needs to improve though...
 
 

Believe me when I say that fence does not even slow them rascals down... once or twice a month I have to re-do parts of it..

and when the rut starts those antlers tear up large sections of that fence...
 
I will say that they seem to tolerate me standing in the yard taking photos.. but if I try to get closer than that they're  gone back into SGL#54....

The ANF is one place I personally would not want to hunt at this time....
 
The habitat, for the most part, is not real good.... with fewer deer because of HR it is starting to get better..but I think a lot of deer have left "the building" and it will take a few more years to get back to what I would call a good hunting area...

there are deer to be had if you don't mind crashing thru blowdowns & thick slashings.

 
Is that not called hunting??????
 
Skipping doe season/not shooting does would not increase the herd drastically .... that has been discussed time and time again.
 
Habitat can only support so many deer.... that's a fact of nature.....
 
Poor habitat and HR have reduced the herd to a point that with time will allow us to have and maintain a larger herd... but not at this time... our forest could not support a lerger herd.. period...

are forest is fine there is plenty of food and evrything else

Musky ..
I'm not sure who is posting the bs.... you wrote--

By the way where did all the slashings and thickets come from, PGC and USFS says nothing is regenerating in our forests.

You will have to provide a link so I can read that statement from either group...


I have not read where either has said NOTHING is regenerating...since we have put in place the current deer program....

and in fact BOTH have recently tesified to the opposite... and DCNR spokemen have agreed.... re-generation is starting to show thanks to HR... and I see it getting better and better every year in my area on the SGL Tours...

I can show you miles of slashings and thickets on SGL#54 where you can barely walk... but guess what... they are made up of undesirable trees species.... of little to no value for timber and provide little to none in the way of good food sources for deer and wildlife.. except song birds   and they were created when we had those large herds that you feel the woods were supporting...

They are excellent hiding places for deer and that's where they all head once pressured.... other than that they are of no value..

Once an area is timbered and with the high numbers of deer we had before HR the deer eat all the new saplings of desirable trees as fast as they appear..and thus only the stuff they do not eat grows producing those useless slashings and thickets...   I think I have talked, created, and shared many webpages on deer exclosures and what better way to show the effect of deer on newly timbered land than that....

now our forests and SGLs are starting to show good regeneration of all species that were there when the trees were cut in the forests... and the #1 difference between then and now -----  the number of deer browsing in the area...

no i meant another 5 to 6 thousand more added to the population already there my mistake if ne thing a no doe season there for a year or two would do the population some good
 

yea it would add a good amount of deer if it keeps being hunted alot 5 or 6 thousand other deer added would add alot more how many yearlings do u think make it up there you got bear coyotes bobcats cars poachers and the elements come on now if i wanted 2 i could say over 20 thousand deer but im saying introduce some more mature deer because they need more mature breeding deer but u got hillbilles up there that whats everybody favorite line if its brown its down yea and the brown population is down it doesnt matter 2 me i hunt in 2b we have deer everywhere i aint gotta compete with nething but my job

Noted PGC biologist John Dzymen says that "an abundance of songbirds is an excellent indicator of overall forest health and forage availability".

I know John VERY well and speak to him almost weekly... not so sure about the biologist part...

and I know all the guys that work for him very well and considered friends... and I believe they should know what is going on in the SGL around here..

John works in land management now and a lot of my opinions are based on what he tells me personally, what he speaks of on the tours, his lectures and articles he has had published in past.

And he has told everyone on the SGL#44 tour about the total lack of song birds in the areas we visit....

so your quote from him may have been taken out of context...

Also my "dream world" is based on reports on my message board, E-mails to me, and personal conversations with folks (foresters, loggers, and guys that work for DCNR at Clear Creek State Forest and the PGC personel I know around here....

so you have every right to your opinion and I mine...

but I choose to continue to go with the "facts" as I receive from those folks and the timber folks that report at the PGC meetings in Harrisburg...

so I'll continue dreaming based on their accounts of what is happening around here... 

This from Cal DuBrock of the PGC...
 

When a forest gets over-browsed, not only deer are affected, but also virtually all other species that live in the forest.
Research conducted on the Allegheny National Forest showed that as deer densities increased, songbird species and numbers decreased. The decrease in songbirds was attributed to the reduced amount of remaining woody vegetation where deer had browsed away a significant amount of the forest understory.
 
"Who cares about songbirds, shrubs and flowers? We want more deer." For some, this is the sentiment when it comes to deer management:
 
The focus must be on deer only.
 
Those with such an opinion, however, don't understand that the same habitat declines that affect songbirds and shrubs, also affect deer.
 
For a deer, habitat is food.
 
If there is no vegetation for song. birds to nest, there is no vegetation for deer to eat.

Nope .. just been hunting deer for over 50 years and have seen it all coming and going...
 
It fact hunting deer today is just about the EXACT SAME as when I started....
Many days afield with no deer seen in the exact same area I live and hunt today.... but seeing deer was not the sole reason I was there in the first place.. the tradition of deer camp.. not the let's get drunk deer camp of today..
time with my Dad and Uncle man to man  If we got a deer greta if not still a memory for a lifetime... BTW.. most years we did not harvest anything until the 1970s arrived... then it was every year either a buck or doe...
 
 I saw great habitat and as a result I saw first hand the deer herd grow...
 
I also read a lot of Roger Latham back then ... an excellent outdoor writer... he was among the 1st to see the deer herd destroying their own environment..
 
and as that happen here I saw more and more deer and smaller and smaller bucks....  then a few years of dead deer everywhere in the bad winters....
 
deer hunting became a don't worry about scouting, forget about the tradition of deer camp... just show up on Sunday night.. hit the woods Monday moring... sit down and wait for deer to be running by....  doe season was the same thing... sit down Monday morning and wait for a doe or BB to come running by...
 
I was not much different... stopped paying attention to habitat, scouting food sources... just wait for that Monday morning sit and shoot...
 
THANK GOD.. my Dad and Uncle taught me deer hunting with a small herd.. it was not hard to remember how to hunt deer instead of sit and shoot deer...........
 

Musky.. well if you have been on 6 then you and I have have "met" at least 4 times... I have only missed 2 since RSB started having them...
 
And yes you are right John does say songbirds show a decent habitat, but most of the ANF SGL#54 and SGL#44 are JUST starting to have songbirds return... and that too has been pointed out on the last three or four tours.. in the beginning you could not hear anything while in the woods on a tour... and also could not find anything growing outside the fences .. in the last 2.5 years that has started to change.. 
 
 
But he has never said our forest habitat is in good shape...  but.. he will now say he is seeing signs of re-generation in much of it anmd admits the lower deer herd is the #1 reason why...
 
question for you.... 
 
if you have been on 6 tours ... when it comes time for questions why have you never shown your opposition to the deer plan....
 
No one every voices opposition... we (John ,RSB, and I) often comment on why the "complainers" never show up for a tour .....