Regulation changes

NYSDEC has posted proposed regulation changes, many of which affect LO tribs and the SR. Instructions for comment and the link to the detailed changes are at http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/34113.html.
The comment period is short.

I meant to post a reminder about State of the Lakes meetings, but got busy and am too late for the Oswego COunty meeting which was last Tuesday. The SOL meeting will be held at RIT in Rochester this Tuesday and details are in the press release section of the DEC website. The 2011 summary is posted in the Biologists Reports section under the Lake Ontario Unit. http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27068.html

L13

Format for the meeting is supposed to be mainly Q+A with the hopes that attendees will have reviewed the 2011 highlights prior, as they are trying to be shorter, so less detail in the presentations. I'll be going (I believe I've only missed one in ~15 years). My only question is whther the increase in Atlantics is attributable to DEC/USGS efforts in the SR or because the Canadians are putting so many more on the north shore. I'm sure I'll hear other questions/comments concerning impact of no lake trout stocking, reduced survival of King and Coho eggs at Altmar, and reduced brown trout numbers due to hatchery problems. And I know Region 8 has asked for atlantics to try again in IC, so if I don't hear anything on that, I'll ask.

Of major note in the regs changes is the no weight in the line leader or fly regs for the 2 SR petting zoos, at least at the end of the LFZ Season, and for the late spring summer period on the UFZ. Since the major target during that period is Atlantics and the occasional Skamania, and I think this is what you would have to do in virtually every other fishery in the Western Hemisphere for Atlantics, all the time, I don't have a problem with it. It might even serve to clear some of the crowding and eliminate some of the "inadvertent foul hooking (we know none of those flyflingers are TRYING to line the fish now are they?)" if it was this way all the time.

L13

"Abundance of adult (age-2 and older) Alewife in spring bottom trawl surveys increased from the record-low levels observed in 2010 (Figure 2). Yearling (age-1) Alewife abundance was above the 1994-2011 average (post-Zebra/Quagga Mussel invasion) for the second consecutive year."

Baitfish abundance in the Lake has been down since back before the Fisheries Congress. DEC predicted bigger problems than have occurred if numbers were not intentionally reduced, and I think they have both been really good at management and really lucky that we have not seen the kind of collapse that has occurred in Michigan, where size is way down, and Huron, where the bait and the predators are nearly gone. Numbers and size of Yellow Perch are up all along the Lake when they run into the bays under the ice and in the spring, and this is another indicator of less alewives. While there are still smelt out there, I have not seen a smelt net for sale around here in over 10 years. DEC did report last year that the salmos are feeding on gobies when their habitat and temperature coincide, but gobies are benthic (bottom oriented) and most of the salmos are pelagic (feeding over open water), so the gobies do not make up for the lower alewife population once the schools move offshore in late spring. And DEC has managed all this with as much as 30% recruitment from natural reproduction of Kings, which is a significant wildcard, of unknown size until these first results from the trailer.

All of this shows up as well in the average size graphs, but the numbers for LO are still pretty attractive in relation to what has gone on in the upper GL. And as has been pointed out by past presnters on baitfish at the SOL meetings, there are other very significant factors in alewife abundance besides predation.

I don't think the DEC folks had any intentions of changing the mix in favor of steelhead, or away from Salmon, even if the harvest numbers out on the lake for chrome are way up. I just think they are reporting some somewhat bad news that all hit in the same year, especially the Lake Trout problems. If there were going to be reductions in stocking as a management tool, Kings are the main control on alewives as they strongly perfer a herring diet in all environments where they are found, but we must remember that the long term objective of the Salmon program has been alewife reduction and control, and the numbers say the biologists are "walking the tightrope" quite admirably.

L13

Based on the responses, this is a WB-L13 thread, and as we mostly fish feathers and occasional eggs, this will not matter to us, but the reg change highlighted at the SOL last night had to do with beads. Proposed reg is any bead has to be no more than 3.5 inches from the point. You have until 4/2 to comment, and there are numerous other ones for SR.

L13

What are the other changes for the SR that you mentioned?

This is what I find on the webpage:

Existing paragraph 10.2(b)(4) is amended to read as follows:

(4) take or attempt to take fish by snatching or any other fishing technique that results in fish being intentionally foul-hooked;

Existing paragraph 10.2(b)(5) is amended to read as follows:

(5) fish at any time, unless otherwise posted by the Department, in Beaverdam Brook and its tributaries, Oswego County, from [the]their mouths to the upstream boundary of the Salmon River Hatchery property, or within 100 yards of any Department fish collection device.

Existing clause 10.2(c)(1)(ii)(g) is amended to read as follows:

(g) With the exception of Lake Erie tributaries use o[r]f more than one hook is prohibited, except that multiple hooks attached to floating lures are permitted as noted in "special provisions for floating lures" in clause (i) of this subparagraph.

Existing clause 10.2(c)(2)(ii)(c) is amended to read as follows:

(c) Hooks shall not have a gap (distance between the shank and the point) greater than one-half inch[.] except as noted in "special provisions for floating lures" in clause (i) of this subparagraph.

Existing subclause 10.2(c)(2)(ii)(i)(3) is amended to read as follows:

(3) Any hooks on a floating lure, other than an artificial fly as defined in section 19.1(c) of this Title, must be attached thereto by a ring or swivel[.] or from August 15th through October 31st, a bead chain attached to the lure with a ring.

Existing subclause 10.2(c)(2)(ii)(i)(4) is amended to read as follows:

(4) The distance between the body of a floating lure and the points of any attached hooks shall not exceed one and one-half inches[.] except the bead chain configuration permitted in clause(i)(3) of this subparagraph may not exceed a distance of three and one half inches between the body of the floating lure and the hook point.

New subclause 10.2(c)(2)(ii)(i)(5) is added to read as follows:

(5) The hook in the bead chain configuration permitted in clause(i)(3) of this subparagraph shall not have a gap greater than five-eights inch.

Existing subdivision 10.2(g) is amended to read as follows:

(g) Additional special fishing regulations for the Salmon River, Oswego County, from County Route 52 bridge upstream to Lighthouse Hill Reservoir. No person may fish at any time except from County Route 52 bridge in Altmar upstream to a marked boundary at Beaverdam Brook (Lower Fly Area) from September 15th through May 15th, and from a marked boundary upstream of the New York State Salmon River Fish Hatchery property upstream approximately 0.6 mile to a marked boundary at the Lighthouse Hill Reservoir tailrace (Upper Fly Area) from April 1st through November 30th. No person, while fishing in these places during these times, shall:

(1) fish from one-half hour after sunset to one-half hour before sunrise;

(2) use fishing tackle other than a traditional fly fishing rod, reel and line;

Existing paragraphs 10.2(g)(3) through 10.2(g)(11) are repealed and new paragraphs 10.2(g)(3) through 10.2(g)(10) are added to read as follows:

[(3) use other than single artificial flies, including weighted flies, which are permitted;

(4) use a weighted fly with more than a one-eighth ounce added weight;

(5) add weight to the line, leader, swivels or artificial fly in any manner such that the weight hangs lower than the attached fly when the line or leader is suspended vertically from the rod;

(6) use less than 20 feet of floating, sinking, or combination floating/sinking flyline, or shooting head immediately behind the leader and in front of any running line or other backing;

(7) use supplemental weight such that the weight is the primary means of propelling the cast rather than the fly line or shooting head;

(8) use a hook with more than one hook point or with a gap of greater than one-half inch;

(9) use a leader, including tippet, measuring in excess of 15 feet;

(10) place additional weight on the line or leader, whether fixed or sliding at a distance exceeding four feet from the fly; and

(11) fail to immediately release all fish without unnecessary injury.]

(3) fail to immediately release all fish without unnecessary injury;

(4) use a leader, including tippet, measuring in excess of 15 feet;

(5) use other than a single artificial fly with a single hook point and a maximum hook gap of one-half inch. The use of weighted flies is permitted as defined in paragraph (10) of this subdivision. The use of added baits or attractors such as, but not limited to, fish eggs insects, beads, spoons, spinners, or plugs on the line above the artificial fly is prohibited;

(6) place supplemental weight on the line or leader, whether fixed or sliding at a distance exceeding four feet from the fly. The use of supplemental weight is permitted as defined in paragraph (10) of this subdivision;

(7) add supplemental weight as permitted in paragraph (10) of this subdivision to the line, leader, swivels or artificial fly in any manner such that weight hangs lower than the attached fly when the leader is suspended vertically from the rod;

(8) use less than 20 feet of floating, sinking or combination floating/sinking flyline, or shooting head immediately behind the leader and in front of any running line or other backing. The use of fly lines is permitted as defined in paragraphs (9) and (10) of this subdivision;

(9) use other that a floating fly line, un-weighted leader and an un-weighted fly in the Lower Fly Area from May 1st through May 15th and from May 1st through August 31st in the Upper Fly Area. The use of sinking flylines, combination floating/sinking flylines, sinking leaders, metal leaders or supplemental weight including sinkers, split shot, twist-ons, swivels, attached to the leader, tippet, flyline or fly is also prohibited in both areas at these times; and

(10) use sinking flylines, combination floating/sinking flylines, shooting heads, sinking leaders, metal leaders, supplemental weight or weighted flies other than from April 1st through April 30th and September 1st through November 30th in the Upper Fly Area, and from September 15th through April 30th in the Lower Fly Area. The combined weight of any supplemental weight (as defined in paragraph 9 of this subdivision) and fly not exceed one-eighth of an ounce.

I'm not finding anything about beads other than you can't use them in the flyzone. But Dan Bishop said only within 3.5 inches of the hook point. Also the link I provided the other day is not working now.

Maybe he was referring to the bead chain on floating lures change. I'll send an e-mail to ask.

L13

post edited by Lucky13 - 2012/02/29 18:29:34

Also, Jana Landry reported that they collected fins from a number of the Atlantics they looked at in the Charter Boat survey, and did genetic analysis to determine if they were Canadian fish, and they all originated on this side of the border. The plan now is to use Beaver Dam brook as a natural hatchery for Atlantics, with USGS personel from the Tunison Lab in Cortland collecting eggs from fish that return there, raising them in the Tunison facilty and then stocking them into the Salmon River. Over time they hope to establish a Lake Ontario strain of Atlantics. No other tributaries are slated for introduction now, but who knows what could happen in 10 years if they continue to do well. And the scuttlebutt I heard about introductions in tribs like IC could be an evaluation program, and they are unlikely to talk about experiments that anglers could mess up by fishing for the fish.(IMHO)

They also reported that they continue to put Skamanias into the SR, I think they said ~50K fish per year.

Some of the observations about size of Steel here could have to do with very little difference between 3 year old and 4 year old steelhead year classes in size as measured in Hatchery returns. But the baitfish indexes say there is still adequate forage out there. Some of the king problems (very small returning 3 year old year class last fall) are related to the poor egg take in 2008, the drought year. They also reported that although they hit egg take targets for 2011, they had poor "eye up" of eggs (~50% Kings, only 9% of cohos) and also lost some of the fingerlings, and this same phenomenon is reported on the Ontario side as well as in Michigan. There were also brown trout problems at the Rome hatchery that will impact 2013 stocking, and they lost all Lake trout at Vt during Irene, so there will be no Lake trout for 2012 stocking. Steelhead are at target levels of 620,000 for 2012. And of course, approximately 40% of the retrning Kings in the river were wild, although this does not affect the hatchery because very few of the wild fish swim up beaverdam brook and into the ladder, as they are homing on the main river.

The full report will be on the website later in the spring, and the summary will gove you a good idea of what was reported if you could not get to one of the meetings. There is one more next week, I think in Lockport.

L13

Always wondered why they chose little s...y for the atlantic program... although it does probably have colder water than the salmon river during hot summers...

I am anxious to see myself what kind of numbers of atlantics will show up in the lower river this spring as they did show up in substantial abundance the past 2 years. Was told by a dsr river keeper that the biologists believed they were following bait fish... I hope I get a shot at them this year...

Lucky, anxious to hear your input and also thanks for the info as well

The pattern in Cayuga and off Champlain is for the spingers to follow the smelt into the lower reaches of the rivers, so they ought to be in Douglston looking for food as well. Streamers should rule for those fish. When they stocked Little Sandy and Lindsey, it was because of an abundance of suitable habitat and cooler water, and they did all right for a while in those streams. They also put them in Irondequoit Creek, and they came back around the first week in July the first year that they returned. Some of us had a short ball (I got a 12.5 and a guy WB and I knew was in the East Rochester Paper with an 18 and a 12) but the fish could not handle the heat stress so if you caught one you killed it even if you released it. The next year, the tribs they stocked were off limits for fishing from 5/1 until mid September or so. They discontinued because the streams were too warm, and the Atlantics were too expensive to raise (10kings = 1 steelehad, 10 steelehead = 1 Atlantic in the hatchery). There is also a great inland progam in Cayuga, Seneca lately and in a lot of ADK lakes as well as Champlain. This new SR program is federal with DEC cooperation, and to me it makes great sense to use natural spawning areas to draw returners and then give them a hand with the eggs in a hatchery. One of the problems pointed to before was competiton from Pacifics, this may overcome some of that, and they can select for creation of the LO strain. We are very fortunate in having one of the best fisheries programs in the USA on LO, these guys are very dedicated to providing a great fishery and using the best science they can to do it. So I have a tendency to trust their judgement, I've enjoyed the results for a good part of my life!

I spoke with one guy last night who said he has had pretty good luck in the UFZ in the summer, same as I have heard, dawn to around 10 AM, dries and low water wets, and said he's been to maritime Canada and it is really the same story there. The biologists don't know why they are all of a sudden doing better, but let's keep our fingers crossed!

As to the browns, they mostly spoke to the lake, where the norm is good fishing in spring from Irondequoit Bay to Oswego, but said last spring it was good west as well. The big tribs for browns are 18 Mile the Oak, and this past fall Maxwell had major runs. WB and I always saw the browns as langiape (a little something extra) to the steelhead, but I have noticed what you say, HT, as well, that there are certain areas they like, and also that some years one color will key them up, I remember way back when the bus was fishing well in Dougtown, the run upstream from the bus would produce browns, and they had a real thing for pink when nothing else in the river would go near it. So maybe the storms have changed the bottom so that they are in different spots.

L13

ORIGINAL: Lucky13

As to the browns, they mostly spoke to the lake, where the norm is good fishing in spring from Irondequoit Bay to Oswego, but said last spring it was good west as well. The big tribs for browns are 18 Mile the Oak, and this past fall Maxwell had major runs. WB and I always saw the browns as langiape (a little something extra) to the steelhead, but I have noticed what you say, HT, as well, that there are certain areas they like, and also that some years one color will key them up, I remember way back when the bus was fishing well in Dougtown, the run upstream from the bus would produce browns, and they had a real thing for pink when nothing else in the river would go near it. So maybe the storms have changed the bottom so that they are in different spots.

L13

9-11 lockdown closed-down some great BROWN spotz..
Fish are still there,

fisherfolks,off limits..

RT, I hear you about necessary inconveniences.I was working on Chambers St. Unfortunately it was a front row seat that day. We did what we could to help who we could, as did most on that day.Was in the frozen zone for many days after.I wish I could forget that smell.Lost some friends and acquaintances.Was working on foundation walls years earlier ,but was lucky not to be there when bomb went off. 9/11/01 NEVER FORGET