OLd Laws New Times
quote:The roster regulation has been in place since 1921. You'd probabley have to do some serious research to find the reason it was established. It's likely just one of many arcane laws throughout the country, that were enacted to adress some problem ( or percieved problem ).
No research is needed . The main reason camp rosters were required is because at that time there were camp limits on the number of big game animals that could be harvested by the group. Since camp limits no longer exist ,there should be no requirement to post a roster outside a cabin.unquote
I see thats explains a few things. Thanks for answer deerfly. Do you think that all the info that is reqired is a good thing? Seems to me it shows where you live and might increase the odds of someone breaking in if they know your from a differnt state or town.Would be real easy to check on ya. Also a pain in the butt changing the roster as one changes a weapon. One thing I didn't get a definate answer on is your home considered a camp when a roster is required ?
|
treesparrow
Expert Angler
- Total Posts : 651
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/02/21 09:27:15
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 03:12:56
(permalink)
Is it still against the law to keep venison longer than 6 months?
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 10:19:51
(permalink)
Treesparrow... NO that was changed...
|
deerfly 
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1271
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/05/03 16:06:32
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 16:47:58
(permalink)
Do you think that all the info that is reqired is a good thing? Since,as I read the regs, you do not have to provide the address of your permanent residence, I don't have a big problem with the information that is required on a roster.But if they are going to require a roster for 5 or more hunters hunting from a permanent camp and participating in driving deer or bear, why isn't a roster required for any group of 5 or more hunters engaged in the same activity? A few years ago I ask a Deputy WCO if we needed a roster if 5 or more hunters hunted from my residence and he told me a roster wasn't required.
|
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 17:21:25
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: deerfly
Do you think that all the info that is reqired is a good thing?
Since,as I read the regs, you do not have to provide the address of your permanent residence, I don't have a big problem with the information that is required on a roster.But if they are going to require a roster for 5 or more hunters hunting from a permanent camp and participating in driving deer or bear, why isn't a roster required for any group of 5 or more hunters engaged in the same activity?
A few years ago I ask a Deputy WCO if we needed a roster if 5 or more hunters hunted from my residence and he told me a roster wasn't required.
Thanks. I see now that the address is now replaced with the CID# instead. That's a good thing. Looks like they went trough the trouble of changing the form rather than elimimanating it. I also don't understand the need for it at a CAMP.I would like a WCO to explain.
|
pghmarty
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5951
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2004/12/05 01:02:33
- Location: Bradford Pa then Pittsburgh
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 17:24:53
(permalink)
If 5 guys leave the camp in a short yellow bus and are droped off in the same field you might need a roster. If 20 guys stay at a camp and scatter to their favorite spot you probably don't need one.  Camp in Marshburgh 30 years ago had a roster every year. Camp in Coryden probably not
|
spoonchucker
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 8561
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 17:36:00
(permalink)
"I also don't understand the need for it at a CAMP.I would like a WCO to explain."
Why ask a WCO to explain? WCO's don't write regulations, or set policy. WCO's may not know, nor do they NEED to know WHY a law/regulation exists. They need only know that it does, and enforce it according to policy.
If it's that much of an issue for you, contact the commisioners. Or attend the next meeting.
Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference. Step Up, or Step Aside The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody. GL
|
deerfly
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1271
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/05/03 16:06:32
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 18:06:35
(permalink)
Why ask a WCO to explain? WCO's don't write regulations, or set policy. WCO's may not know, nor do they NEED to know WHY a law/regulation exists. They need only know that it does, and enforce it according to policy.
If a WCO doesn't know why a law or reg. exists they are not qualified to exercise disgression in enforcing the law. If there is no valid reason for a camp to post a roster, then there is no valid reason why an WCO should cite a camp for not complying with the roster reg. When a law is enforced based on "policy" those that are subject to those laws have no idea what that policy might be and therefore are subject to the whims of the WCO enforcing the law.
|
tull66
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1049
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/07/15 07:43:43
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 18:08:53
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: pghmarty
If 5 guys leave the camp in a short yellow bus and are droped off in the same field you might need a roster.
What if 2 of them are Jr. hunters and one of the adults is a felon? Is the short yellow bus school bus yellow? Is a roster required with a maroon mini-van? What about 5 women? What if you don't hunt fields? I think you raised more questions than you answered.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
|
pghmarty
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5951
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2004/12/05 01:02:33
- Location: Bradford Pa then Pittsburgh
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 18:54:35
(permalink)
http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/Gibber/GibGen.htm Corrected using a gibberish generator for some to understand I think you raised a felon? What if 2 off in the short yellow bus a felon? If 5 guys leave them and never you raised will required of the camp in the camp in trouble; Help a short yellow bus a rosters a roster. What maroon mini-van? What if 2 of the is is in trouble again For surely think you raised more droped more questions the same field you might never complain. - Nipsey Russel Is the short yellow? What if you raised will remember you might need a man when he short yellow bus and a ros Gibberish to Spanish:
Se requiere una lista con un hombre cuando se encuentra en los adultos es un delincuente? Es una lista. ¿Qué pasa con 5 mujeres? ¿Qué pasa si dos de los campamentos en un autobús amarillo corto y se Jr. campos de caza? Creo que su respuesta. _________________________________________________ Ayudar a un hombre cuando está en problemas; Ayudar a un marrón mini-van? ¿Qué pasa si usted ha planteado más preguntas que usted no cazadores y uno de un mismo campo es posible que tenga una lista requerida con un marrón mini-van? ¿Qué pasa con 5 mujeres? ¿Qué pasa si usted ha planteado más preguntas
post edited by pghmarty - 2011/06/24 18:58:35
|
spoonchucker
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 8561
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 19:24:53
(permalink)
"When a law is enforced based on "policy" those that are subject to those laws have no idea what that policy might be and therefore are subject to the whims of the WCO enforcing the law."
Not when it's agency policy.
You seem to want EVERY possible scenario/situation specifically adressed in writing. But then you'd be the first to complain when the "book" is 300 pages.
Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference. Step Up, or Step Aside The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody. GL
|
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 19:58:18
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: pghmarty
If 5 guys leave the camp in a short yellow bus and are droped off in the same field you might need a roster.
If 20 guys stay at a camp and scatter to their favorite spot you probably don't need one.
Camp in Marshburgh 30 years ago had a roster every year.
Camp in Coryden probably not
Probably ? Once again no one can give a definite answer. Five stump hunters meet up from the same camp and walk a logging road back to camp, are they required to have a roster ?
|
deerfly
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1271
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/05/03 16:06:32
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 20:32:15
(permalink)
"When a law is enforced based on "policy" those that are subject to those laws have no idea what that policy might be and therefore are subject to the whims of the WCO enforcing the law."
Not when it's agency policy. When the PGC implemented ARs they established and published the agency policy as to how the law would be enforced. However ,there is no published policy defining the difference between feeding and baiting deer during he hunting season or the need for a camp roster for more than 5 members that don't drive deer. BTW, do you know what the PGC's definition is regarding ,"driving deer"?
|
spoonchucker
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 8561
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/24 21:28:15
(permalink)
""When a law is enforced based on "policy" those that are subject to those laws have no idea what that policy might be and therefore are subject to the whims of the WCO enforcing the law." No! You can benefit by the "whims" of the LEO ( his discretion ), but you are subject only to the law. This is true in many situations. The speed limit ( by law ) on the interstate is 65mph. LEO generally won't even stop you between 65-75. Whether that is department, or individual officer policy you benefit by that policy. They can also subject you TO the law, but not more than the law ( IE: under normal driving conditions, they can't cite you for 64mph ). When it comes down to it though. If you exceed the speed limit, you should expect to be cited, and it is YOU who is subjecting YOURSELF to the "whims" of LEO. Another example. At lake Arthur ( as many places ), you're not allowed to fish off the docks. Many people do it though, and I've never seen anyone cited for it. Most of the time they are fishing one rod, tossing plugs, and have no other gear on the dock. Most times LE either says/does nothing. Sometimes they point out that it's not allowed, and ask the "offender" to move away from the launch. Now, if if they were set up with their lawnchair, bait bucket, and tackle box. They might get cited, but I doubt it unless they gace the LEO a hard time, or violating additional regs. Now do you really want take that discretion away from LEO? The reason for the law, is to keep the docks clear for folks launching/loading boats. Now at 3am a guy standing there tossing plugs might not be a problem, and it might be policy not to cite folks for it ( or even ask them to move ). But you know as well as I, that if it was stated/written policy not to cite people, there are those that would abuse any leniency of policy. So the law must be in place to LE the authority to deal with those situations.
post edited by spoonchucker - 2011/06/24 21:57:27
Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference. Step Up, or Step Aside The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody. GL
|
DarDys
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4939
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
- Location: Duncansville, PA
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/25 08:36:23
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: spoonchucker
"When a law is enforced based on "policy" those that are subject to those laws have no idea what that policy might be and therefore are subject to the whims of the WCO enforcing the law."
Not when it's agency policy.
You seem to want EVERY possible scenario/situation specifically adressed in writing. But then you'd be the first to complain when the "book" is 300 pages.
Actually, the digest is a "Reader's Digest" version of the game code which probably well exceeds 300 pages.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
|
deerfly
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1271
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/05/03 16:06:32
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/26 16:51:44
(permalink)
I've often wondered what the internal policy is regarding enforcing this provision of the code.
Sec. 2308. Unlawful devices and methods.
(a) General rule.--Except as otherwise provided in this title, it is unlawful for any
person to hunt or aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt any game or wildlife through the use of:
(7) A vehicle or conveyance of any kind or its attachment propelled by other
than manpower. Nothing in this subsection shall pertain to any motorboat or sailboat if the
motor has been completely shut off or sail furled, and the progress thereof has ceased.
Then there is this quote from the Diget regarding road hunting. Road Hunting: It is unlawful to 1) hunt from a vehicle; 2) shoot at
wildlife on a public road or right-of-way open to public travel; 3)
shoot across a road unless the line of fire is high enough to pre-
clude any danger to road users; and 4) alight from a vehicle and
shoot at any wildlife until the shooter is at least 25 yards from the
traveled portioned of the roadway Based on the the quote about road hunting, it is illegal to hunt from a vehicle,but it is legal to alight from a vehicle and shoot at wildlife if you are 25 yds. from the traveled portion of the roadway. But ,based on section(7) it would appear that it would even be illegal to use an ATV to get to your stand or to take posters or drivers to their location.
|
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/26 17:40:56
(permalink)
Oh GREAT ! Now Deputy Dog can write a citation for using an ATV to transport hunters if he wants to. Sounds to me like the game codes and policies need a major overhaul. Unbelievable !!
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/26 22:26:35
(permalink)
You guys are really UNbelievable... It clearly states it is illegal to ... it is unlawful for any
person to hunt or aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt any game or wildlife through the use of:
Then you interpret that as saying .. based on section(7) it would appear that it would even be illegal to use an ATV to get to your stand or to take posters or drivers to their location riding on an ATV is not illgel (with permission) except on SGLs... You can hardly be considered as hunting if you have an unloaded gun while traveling to your stand or taking others to theirs... that is traveling NOT HUNTING.... traveling with a loaded gun would then be HUNTING thus illegal to do.... ghez I would think a 10 year old could understsnd that... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/06/26 22:29:24
|
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 01:05:15
(permalink)
You can hardly be considered as hunting if you have an unloaded gun while traveling to your stand or taking others to theirs... that is traveling NOT HUNTING.... How dumb am I ? I thought hunting could still be accomblished with out a weapon. Thank you Mr WCO. My 10th birthday is next month.
|
pghmarty
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5951
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2004/12/05 01:02:33
- Location: Bradford Pa then Pittsburgh
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 04:27:20
(permalink)
I travel with a loaded pistol.
Get a carry permit.
|
deerfly
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1271
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/05/03 16:06:32
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 08:59:19
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
You guys are really UNbelievable...
It clearly states it is illegal to ...
it is unlawful for any
person to hunt or aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt any game or wildlife through the use of:
Then you interpret that as saying ..
based on section(7) it would appear that it would even be illegal to use an ATV to get to your stand or to take posters or drivers to their location
riding on an ATV is not illgel (with permission) except on SGLs...
You can hardly be considered as hunting if you have an unloaded gun while traveling to your stand or taking others to theirs... that is traveling NOT HUNTING....
traveling with a loaded gun would then be HUNTING thus illegal to do....
ghez I would think a 10 year old could understsnd that...
Let's see if you have the understanding of a ten year old? You said you post here to refute the erroneous information by others but yet you apparently didn't bother to check on how hunting is defined in the regs. ENERAL PROVISIONS
Sec. 2301. Amended June 28, 2004, Act No. 2003-48.
Sec. 2301. Prima facie evidence of hunting.
(a) General rule.--For the purpose of this title, any one of the following acts shall
constitute prima facie evidence of hunting:
(1) Possession of any firearm, bow and arrow, raptor, trap or other device of
any description usable for the purpose of hunting or taking game or wildlife.
(2) Possession of the carcass or any part or parts of any game or wildlife.
(3) Pursuing game or wildlife in any manner prohibited by this title or
commission regulation.
(b) Lawful cooperation or assistance.--Notwithstanding any other provision of this
title to the contrary, any person who has lawfully taken the bag or season limit for a particular
species of game or wildlife or any person who meets the requirements of section 2701(c)
(relating to license requirements) may aid, assist, abet or cooperate in any manner
specified by this title or commission regulations with another person who is engaged in any
lawful activity permitted by this title or the regulations of the commission.
Cross References. Section 2301 is referred to in section 2325 of this title. Is road hunting considered to be hunting illegally ,or is it just "traveling" as you claim?
post edited by deerfly - 2011/06/27 09:01:55
|
Dr. Trout
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 4417
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2002/03/03 03:12:33
- Location: Jefferson County (2F)
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 12:58:28
(permalink)
If you do not understand what "road hunting" is there's no need for me to reply...
it would be wasting my time...
I posted what I believe is the facts..
you can take them or leave them.... or as RSB suggests.. write to PGC law enforcement to get their thoughts since you obviously believe no one here, except yourself...
|
RhnstnCowboy
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 2583
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2008/12/10 11:39:55
- Location: The Ohio State Reformatory
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 13:12:21
(permalink)
Have you caught any good suckers lately Dr. Trout? Did the suckers spawn well this year with all the rain?
"Part of being a Leftist is the smug conviction that you and people like you are smart, while everyone else is stupid and/or evil" - T. Fleming
|
countryfisher
Avid Angler
- Total Posts : 168
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2005/10/31 14:20:02
- Location: Albion, PA
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 16:49:18
(permalink)
Carry permits apply to concealed weapons, not long guns
So if you spot deer from your truck with your bow or rifle on board, your permit does not apply to them, but you can have your pistol ready to roll
|
deerfly
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1271
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/05/03 16:06:32
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 17:39:22
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
If you do not understand what "road hunting" is there's no need for me to reply...
it would be wasting my time...
I posted what I believe is the facts..
you can take them or leave them.... or as RSB suggests.. write to PGC law enforcement to get their thoughts since you obviously believe no one here, except yourself...
I not only understand the definition of road hunting but I also posted the definition of road hunting and it refers to the use of a vehicle, not just a car ,truck or SUV. The only difference between road hunting and traveling from one hunting spot to another is the intent of the hunter. So, if a hunter is driving down a road and sees a legal deer, parks,walks 25 yds. from the roadway and shoots the deer ,was he road hunting or just traveling? If you believe what you posted was facts ,you obviously have a hard time determining the difference between facts and personal opinion. The law clearly states it is illegal to use a motorized vehicle to aide or abet in harvesting game.Using an ATV get to you stand or to take standers or drivers to their desired location s ,is clearly using a motorized vehicle to aide or abet in taking game.
|
bingsbaits
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 5039
- Reward points: 0
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 19:31:52
(permalink)
If there were any deer left so one could take some game your arguement might hold water.  
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
|
deerfly
Pro Angler
- Total Posts : 1271
- Reward points: 0
- Joined: 2010/05/03 16:06:32
- Status: offline
RE: OLd Laws New Times
2011/06/27 20:59:49
(permalink)
Even if there aren't any deer left in an area, if a hunter was pursuing those imaginary deer on an ATV he would still be in violation of the code!!
|