The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd 
deerfly 
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 17:29:29
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Wow. Great stuff. Thanks for sharing Deerfly!!!!!
What we have here is a professional wildlife biologist, who has obviously studied into this situation in depth! And surprise surprise, hes saying exactly the things ive (and others) been saying for quite some time now. Guy REALLY knows his stuff!! Those last 5 deer links tell the tale.
I would highly suggest to anyone interested in these issues to take the time to watch those links!!!!
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 17:33:46
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dpms
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 18:20:54
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My rifle is a black rifle
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S-10
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 18:27:08
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DPMS--I suppose you would rather have the Audubon running things. You can't hunt tweety birds and they look on anything else as not important.
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deerfly
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 18:36:03
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ORIGINAL: dpms
USP.............
No, ACSL!!
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dpms
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 18:37:25
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ORIGINAL: S-10
DPMS--I suppose you would rather have the Audubon running things. You can't hunt tweety birds and they look on anything else as not important.
Actually I am in favor of the PGC running things.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 18:39:01
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ORIGINAL: deerfly
No, ACSL!!
Allegheny County Sportsmens League = USP = Allegheny Sportsmens Alliance = 
My rifle is a black rifle
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deerfly
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 19:04:37
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That may be your opinion , but let's see if you can provide any facts to support your opinion. Was the ACSL a coplaintiff in the USP lawsuit?
Did ACSL file their own suit against the PGC DMP?
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DanesDad
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 19:23:15
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Is the allegheny county sportsmans league affiliated with the USP? I'm asking because I dont know. I'm not trying to stir the pot.
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 19:39:54
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"Is the allegheny county sportsmans league affiliated with the USP? I'm asking because I dont know. I'm not trying to stir the pot." DD, Dont know if there is affiliation or not, But i'm sure whether its true there is a very loose association or even if they do not, some will say anything to discredit because this information goes against the grand plan ...but so what if they are accepting usp as allies or not in the fight against percieved deer management corruption? Pgc has quite a few partnerships we should be a bit more concerned with.
DPMS, PennFed is supposed to be a sportsmen org., but also embraces nonhunting environmentalists (some of which some might call extremists) and i havent seen you complain about that ?? On the other hand, ACSL boasts i believe it is over 200,000 members. By far the largest Pa sportsmen group im aware of, and though he very well may be, i dont even know if this guy is representing ACSL or just giving a presentation (not that it matters), but the guy is a wildlife professional with great credentials. He also is saying what alot of us already knew from our own studies, and makes 100% sense. Its hardly as if hes making ridiculous statements and holding extreme obtuse positions like some of the obtuse minded special interest groups. All he basically did was add percieved credibility with his credentials, to what many of us already knew.
I am not affiliated with either group. Though ive been accused incorrectly (and so have others that i know) of being usp on a message board or two, for one reason. People seeking to discredit the facts of the matter by attacking usp and associating anyone else who is outspoken against the plan, with them. On the other hand, i think it not surprising that audubon absolutely HATES usp with a passion. And i mean H-A-T-E-S lol. I always get a kick out of some of the higher ups at Pa audubon writing pieces where they tear into usp. Then go to some of the hunting message boards and see a select group of "hunters"... do the same and say the same things, at times word for word. Kinda makes you wonder some time ya know?
So now i guess its acsl's turn. lol. And lets not forget to attack the very hunter friendly, clearly intellectual wildlife professional.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 20:02:14
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dpms
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 20:44:35
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
DPMS, PennFed is supposed to be a sportsmen org., but also embraces nonhunting environmentalists (some of which some might call extremists) and i havent seen you complain about that ?? You referring to PennFuture? Not a big fan of them either, at least the little I know of them.
post edited by dpms - 2010/09/03 20:46:40
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deerfly
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 21:44:56
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I think he was referring to the PFSC which supported the PGC DMP from day one.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 21:45:56
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Not so sure I put too much of my faith in the The Allegheny County Sportsmans League.. On their homepage they boast they speak for 200,000 sportmens..  Then they list less than 50 pittsbugh clubs as member clubs... at 1,000 member per club that would be only 50,000 people they would then need 150,000 indivdual members at $20.00 a clip.. that would be $3 million in revenues plus the dues for the clubs...  even the PFSC with almost 400 member clubs and indivdual members only claims to speak for 100,000 sportmen.. ????????????????????
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 21:47:02
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deerfly
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 21:52:53
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Instead of questioning their claims about membership,why don't you point out the flaws in the information provided in the videos?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 22:37:15
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I did not look at the videos.... I checked out the organizatuion first and did not like what I saw... I do not want to add one more count to the views so they can claim xx number of viewers in support of their beliefs looked at the videos... ... just like I never go the USP website.. I don't want my visit to appear to be in support .... just me... I'm an odd-ball about things like that and where I visit on the internet.. 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 22:38:05
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 22:55:59
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"even the PFSC with almost 400 member clubs and indivdual members only claims to speak for 100,000 sportmen.." Ummm, no they dont Doc. They claim to speak for a total of 100,000 combined sportsmen AND NONHUNTING CONSERVATIONISTS. Lets keep the story straight here. Wouldnt want any confusion, just being sure all are on the same page here. That is a HUGE difference from what you said.
And even though penfed claims 100k members its well known the membership has taken a nose dive and the finances are in pretty bad shape. There had been talk of fundraisers to help out the finances and even lol.....on one site....GARAGE/YARD SALES mentioned! lol.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 23:06:44
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 23:02:12
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"I did not look at the videos.... I checked out the organizatuion first and did not like what I saw..." I checked them out as well. Appeared to be a very concerned sportsmen group. Seemed to be very family oriented and a well rounded group, and very interested in furthering the sport of hunting in Pa. Didnt have any problem with anything on the site. Only thing i could even fathom you wouldnt like, is that they dont support the deer plan. I also have no problem at all with their membership claim. That area is one of the highest populated in the state... Around one and one quarter million people in Allegheny county alone.
Outta check out the vids Doc. If you were truly open minded, it might just change your mind on some things. Or maybe you can straighten the guy out, if you think you know better than the biologist?
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 23:10:17
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 23:10:58
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Ummm, no they dont Doc. They claim to speak for a total of 100,000 combined sportsmen AND NONHUNTING CONSERVATIONISTS. Lets keep the story straight here. Wouldnt want any confusion, just being sure all are on the same page here. That is a HUGE difference from what you said Let's pracatice what we preach Wayne... this is DIRECT from their webpage ----- Our membership is made up of affiliated clubs and individual members. We currently represent approximately 100,000 members. The Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs is always striving to preserve, promote and protect our Outdoor Heritage of Hunting, Trapping, Angling, Boating, the Shooting Sports and the Resource. NOTICE THESE VERY VERY IMPORTANT WORDS" == "represent approximately 100,000 MEMBERS" .....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2010/09/03 23:13:17
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 23:26:22
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Yeah i guess "and the Resource" also covers the NONHUNTING CONSERVATIONISTS. Im seeing a little game playing here doc. You are not gonna stand up for the nonhunting conservationists?? Do you think they portray the group overall in a bad light by having them as members?? Why else did you try to act as if my statements on that werent 100% true?? Dont you think they would be offended by your acting as if you didnt want to acknowledge them? BTW, this was on the same page of the pfsc website: "The Voice of Sportsmen & Conservationists in the Commonwealth" HEY...you deleted the statement that i replied to, and now only part of its there lol! Let's pracatice what we preach Wayne... this is DIRECT from their webpage -----
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/03 23:36:51
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/03 23:32:58
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"NOTICE THESE VERY VERY IMPORTANT WORDS" == "represent approximately 100,000 MEMBERS" " lol. Much better.
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pikepredator2
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/06 18:44:37
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video 5 of 8 mentioned above talked about the "old forest" plan PA started 5 yrs ago and won't come to fruition for what was it, 300 to 400 years? Really?! By that time there will no longer be State Forests or National Parks as all that land will be residential areas for a population that is bursting at the seams. And the state is putting money into this now??? Those trees will have been long cut, and the state forest gone the way of the rain forests. Can't wait to view the last 3. I'm so negative, or so I'm always told. Wonder why?
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Dr. Trout
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/06 23:53:36
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You sure do not read what you post... you mentioned sevaral times about the PFSC and (TO QUOTE YOU) = non-hunting conservationists members... then you post that the membership of the PFSC consists of ...""The Voice of Sportsmen & Conservationists in the Commonwealth"" All I said was they have 100,000 members.... where do you see anything about the PFSC and NON-hunting conservationist members ?????? or, as so often, are you just making something up to agrue your opinion.... Here's what a conservationist is according to a dictionary = conservationist (plural conservationists)
A person who maintains natural areas or protects threatened species.
Someone who advocates for these actions. I see nothing about them being NON -hunters??? Do you mean to imply that all conservationist are non-hunters or anti-hunting .. a person can't be BOTH ???? Was not Aldo Leopald a hunter and conservationist ???? How about Roger Latham ????
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/07 01:09:59
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"You sure do not read what you post..." Im thinking its more a comprehension issue Doc. And not mine. That'll be more than clear by the end of this post, as usual. "you mentioned sevaral times about the PFSC and (TO QUOTE YOU) = non-hunting conservationists members..." Yes. And you didnt deny. "then you post that the membership of the PFSC consists of ...""The Voice of Sportsmen & Conservationists in the Commonwealth"" Same thing....& conservationists. I didnt write their statement. It doesnt say hunter alone (including hunters that are also conservationists) it says AND conservationists. Though its not as if i just learned this from this statement, no need to over analyze the interpretation. Just pointing it out and how fitting it is. Im plenty familiar with the organizations makeup and policies that include taking in nonhunting environmentalists into membership. Its also not hard to tell what faction of the club sets the policy. Its not the average joe hunters, but the nonhunters + the "Latham" type hunters with strong environmentalist views that are pretty extreme.. "All I said was they have 100,000 members...." Yeah. After having changed your post. I was posting while you were. I saw the change as you made it And no, i didnt claim you said anything about "and conservationists"....You incorrectly stated first that pfsc spoke for 100k SPORTSMEN...before changing it to "members" thats why i said that is better.... "or, as so often, are you just making something up to agrue your opinion...." I think you need to put more effort into attacking the issue, moreso than attacking the poster when things arent going so well for you in debate. ...As i so often do? That doc is a blatant flat out lie. You cannot provide ONE single instance of where i EVER have tried to pass off a proven lie (any lie) as the truth. Can you say the same? After that last statement i have to say a resounding NO. "conservationist (plural conservationists)
A person who maintains natural areas or protects threatened species.
Someone who advocates for these actions. I see nothing about them being NON -hunters???" Being a conservationist doesnt mean NONHUNTER. Being both a conservationist AND a nonhunter = nonhunter. You dont make much sense at times doc. "Do you mean to imply that all conservationist are non-hunters or anti-hunting .. a person can't be BOTH ????" Absolutely not implying anything of the such. And im also saying PFSC has members whom are both, AND one but not the other....Conservationists and NOT hunters. Clear nuff for ya? "How about Roger Latham ????" That made Latham no less of an extremist. He was a noted turkey hunter. But unfortunately, he hated deer, and even got kicked out of the game commission for his extremist enviromentalist type beliefs. If you look into, you'll find "JR." is trying to carry on dear ol' dads legacy, and his name, too, is mentioned in the videos provided.
IF you want the last word on the topic, take it. This thread is about bigger and more important things than the enviro ridden "sportsmen" group we are giving far too much time to here imho.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/07 01:35:56
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wayne c
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RE: The Mismanagement of the PA Deer Herd
2010/09/15 21:07:17
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I was just doing a web search for odds and ends, snoppin' around, and came across this excellent piece on this topic: "The Systematic Dismantling of State Fish and Game Departments
September 7, 2010
*Editor’s Note* Information for part of this article came as the result of a link provided by a reader to the video concerning the recent “audit†of the Pennsylvania deer management program. Hat tip!
At work within your local communities are people whose bent is the dismantling of fish and game departments and clubs and organizations that promote America’s long heritage of hunting, trapping and fishing. This effort is not, however, confined to your local or state agencies and groups. National organizations are busy infiltrating these long standing constitutions with agendas that far exceed the imaginations of most people.
I have long been an opponent of the manipulation of states’ fish and game departments by environmentalists to morph these tried and true administrations into larger, super-departments often called departments of natural resources and the such. I have readily spoken of the dangers of such.
The somewhat stealth adversaries of those fish and game agencies whose function is actually to advocate for fish and game, begin simply by reducing or eliminating hunting, fishing and trapping opportunities. As the prospects for a chance to go afield diminish, interest wanes, license sales drop, revenue to state fish and game departments evaporates and thus begin the calls for general taxpayer money to pay for the day to day operations with claims the department is no longer relevant. This appeal for taxpayer dollars, disguised sometimes as an honest effort to “bail out†fish and game, is closely followed by the insistence that a more diverse representation be permitted to sit on the governing boards of our fish and game institutions.
It should also be noted that a more subtle, back door approach can be quite successful as a means of early infiltration into the affairs of fish and game. Conservationists in name only (CINOs) slither their way into the ranks of game management in order to change the balance and direction fish and game should go. This is often achieved through our education system of indoctrination in which these same CINOs have had their influences.
If we look around, we can see this permeation in action through many different levels of success. Whether it’s delta smelts in the San Joaquin Valley area of California, wolves in the North Rockies, Southwest or Western Great Lakes, black bears and pumas in Florida, mountain lions in California, Canada lynx in Maine and other northern tier states, the systematic destruction of deer in Pennsylvania or Atlantic salmon, you name a state and more than likely you will find a “controversy†over some species that provokes demands from the environmentalists to halt or drastically reduce hunting, trapping and/or fishing opportunities.
A clear example of this infiltration is taking place in Pennsylvania. Several years ago it was decided by the ruling class of the Fish and Game Commission, which, as it turns out has been successfully compromised by members pushing their ecosystem form of management, to begin a program to systematically destroy the whitetail deer herd all in the name of saving the forest.
For decades Americans have successfully utilized the model of Maximum Sustainable Yield in management of our forests and wildlife. But those of the infiltrating party have switched to a non scientific, political form of management called the Ecosystem Management, which is for the most part in direct opposition to sustainable yield.
John Eveland, a wildlife ecologist, forester and wildlife biologist, says that in Pennsylvania’s case, where citizens were told that too many whitetail deer were destroying the forest, resulting in placing other species in danger, real science shows those claims not to be at all true. He says that out of some 465 species of birds, mammals and flowers found in Pennsylvania’s forest, any eating of shrubbery by deer might possibly have effects on 4 or 5 species. He also points out that studies show that when deer were at the maximum in Pennsylvania, the effect deer were having on shrubbery, etc. was minimal.
John Eveland was video recorded with his presentation before Pennsylvania sportsman’s groups and can be viewed in an 8-part series by following this link.
Eveland’s claims are that this is all a result of the infiltration by individuals, representing groups whose agendas are to reduce or eliminate hunting opportunities, stating this as also being a danger to Second Amendment rights.
While Eveland’s research, presentation and conclusions are quite eye opening, some would question whether he goes far enough in exposing where the ideas of Ecosystem Management come from. It is easy to perhaps recognize and point a finger at a person in your community who is outwardly verbal in support of Ecosystem Management vs. Maximum Sustainable Yield but where does all this garbage originate from and is it a trickle down confiscation of hunting, trapping and fishing opportunities and rights or a more blatant, conspiracy by powerful forces to promote agendas? You, of course, will have to make that decision for yourself.
Some point a finger at the United Nations Agenda 21, through the use of gray and fancy wording make it sound as though they have the best interest of everyone and everything at heart. But do they? Agenda 21 calls for all nations to be able to prosper from the sustainable management of our resources and beseeches the States’ governments to adhere to the program developed by the U.N.
Agenda 21 clearly indicates that as it pertains to forestry management, we should be protecting the entire ecosystem, while steering away from the proven science behind what has already shown to be successful.
While we are not aware that our own Federal Government is outwardly mandating its agencies to utilize the principles and elements of Agenda 21, rest assured there are plenty of those who subscribe to this kind of government control, as it is an issue of control over people and not the protection of wildlife or natural resources.
The next time you hear someone make comment that outdoor sportsmen are making too big an issue over certain wildlife management concerns, begin asking yourself who and what is really behind the actions being discussed. It may not be as simple as you think. That handful of outspoken sportsmen, more than likely, are much more informed than you may even know.
Get involved! Get educated!
Tom Remington
post edited by wayne c - 2010/09/15 21:08:53
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