Cross, just askin, did you have a lot of trail cams out before AR?

not as many, but yes. And the old kind with film and a dozen C batteries too :)

But my area of NW PA seems to have alot bigger bucks than most places in the state, so my experiences probably aren't representative of the whole state. No, I know they aren't (I get around).



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I would think we need to determine if social trends in less hunters/deer hunters as a whole is further sped along by HR/AR. Let's be fair now and not just rush to judgement based on partial information

What social trends would suddenly cause 205K hunters to quit deer hunting even though over 100K of those same hunters still bought general hunting licenses? Why did the number of archers only decrease from 284K in 2000 to 271K in 2008 which is a decrease of only 5%.

I am not about to do a lot of research just to satisfy your curiosity because no matter what I would find it is not likely it would change your mind, but here is a quote from Kip Adams on the subject of hunter stats.

Hunters lost and found – According to NSSF, 31 states lost hunters from 1995 to 2005. Massachusetts lost nearly 41% of its hunters while Washington lost 36%, Rhode Island lost 33%, New Jersey lost 27%, and Hawaii lost 26%. However, that means 19 states increased their number of hunters during that decade. North Dakota gained a whopping 40%, Tennessee gained 29%, Oklahoma gained 27%, Kentucky gained 19% and Arkansas hunter numbers increased 17%. Noticeably absent from these lists are the “Big 3”. Texas, Pennsylvania and Michigan are the perennial leaders in hunter license sales and from 1995 to 2005 Texas held steady with only a 2% decline while license sales dropped nearly 12% in Pennsylvania and nearly 16% in Michigan. That means Pennsylvania and Michigan each lost nearly as many hunters during that time period as there are in North Dakota!

Ok, since I was curious...........and had some time:

Using google to search for statistics on PA license sales, I found this. Since I know Mr. Bleech I will assume the data he procured is valid. Click this link and then follow the link for sales history.

http://www.goerieblogs.com/sports/nwpaoutdoors/?p=736


I did some math on a couple of the years. I didn't do every year, I don't have that much time but rather in 10 year increments with 1983 and 2003 years thrown in for an illustration I'll make later.

1962 total license sales (adding all lines given) 822,685
1970 total license sales (adding all lines given) 1,182,860 (a 43.780% increase in sales since 1962)
1980 total license sales (adding all lines given) 1,299,919 (a 9.896% increase in sales since 1970)
1983 total license sales (adding all lines given) 1,205,524 (this is 20 years before the new management plan)
1990 total license sales (adding all lines given) 1,156,895 (a 11.002% decrease in sales since 1980)
2000 total license sales (adding all lines given) 994,160 (a 14.066% decrease since 1990)
2003 total license sales (adding all lines given) 963,075 first year of AR
2008 total license sales (adding all lines given) 853,683 (a 14.130% decrease since 2000)

2008 being the last year data was available when this article was written in 2009.

Notable dates: 2001 first concurrent buck/doe season. 2003: Antler restrictions/HR implemented.

So what does it all mean? I'm not sure, you can cut this data up lots of different ways. But if you look at license sales from 1983 to 2003, the twenty years immediately prior to the new deer management plan there is a -20.111% decrease in license sales over that time period.

1993 to 2008, you see an -11.358% decrease. So to me, if HR/AR is really the culprit of anything when it comes to license sales, it's SLOWING the trend of decreased sales. Slowing a trend that ALREADY developed well before HR/AR was implemented.

Something is going on in PA for sure, but to say it's ALL HR/AR is absolutely crazy. And those of you who constantly say that is the SOLE reason just look more eccentric to the rest of us, and your message becomes lost in that.

If I am missing something here, or used this data incorrectly please let me know.



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DarDy is right. you need both the number of general license holder as well as the number of deer hunters to see the effects of the new deer management plan on the number of deer hunters and that is how I calculated general license sales decreased by 11% while deer hunters dropped by 23% since the plan was implemented in 2000.

So what does it all mean? I'm not sure, you can cut this data up lots of different ways. But if you look at license sales from 1983 to 2003, the twenty years immediately prior to the new deer management plan there is a -20.111% decrease in license sales over that time period.

You forgot to mention that the old HR plan was implemented in 1980 and the PGC has been trying to reduce the herd since then.

"Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I believe the point was that although it is a known fact that LICENSE sales are declining in PA, those that identify themselves as DEER HUNTERS are declining at a faster pace. In other words, of those still purchasing a license, fewer of them are doing so to hunt deer."

Excellent point Dardys.Im not sure how much more proof one might need?