knots for leaders

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smallhook
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2007/07/23 22:31:44 (permalink)

knots for leaders

I'm having a devil of a time tying blood knots when on the stream.   Is there an easier knot I can tie to join tippet material to a leader?
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    beerman
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/23 22:47:05 (permalink)
    I use the double (and triple) surgeon's knot.
    Here is an illustration: http://www.animatedknots.com/surgeonsjoin/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

    changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes....nothing remains quite the same



    The Beerman ~ Greg
    #2
    2dog
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/23 23:53:10 (permalink)
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    Rtom45
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/24 07:40:48 (permalink)
    I'm also a fan of the surgeon's knot.
    #4
    RIZ
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/24 10:00:25 (permalink)
    i like the blood knot.  it has better strength than the surgeon's.  the uni knot would be a good knot but i tie the blood better.
    #5
    flytierwon
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/24 11:37:23 (permalink)
    double uni knot
    #6
    luvinbluegills
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/24 12:40:36 (permalink)
    I like the knot illustrated on the card that comes with Orvis leaders. I don't remember the name, but it's pretty much just a fold around, then double overhand knot. Super easy, very strong when tied correctly. 

    Faith is only as good as its object
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    #7
    salmotrutta
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/24 17:23:51 (permalink)
    Practice. Nothing beats a blood knot IMHO.

    Lyrical
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    dano
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/24 20:45:37 (permalink)
    I tie my own leaders and only use blood knots on the first 75% of my leader. After that, its double surgeons knots on the last few sections.
    The double surgeons knot seems to hold up better for me when joining thinner diameter mono.

    Gone Fishing
    #9
    SilverKype
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/25 13:30:44 (permalink)
    I've done a ton of testing with the blood and surgeon's.  I took two ... two foot pieces of 8 lb mono.  Tied the double surgeons on one end, and a blood on the other.  Holding them in a circle (with one knot on top and the other on the bottom and each hand on the sides), I pulled with socks on my hand.  To be fair, considering I'm left handed, I switched up a few times.
     
    To me, it looks like the blood would be stronger.  Not the case at all.  The blood broke EVERY time.  I think I tried it like 10-12 times.  It didn't matter on how many times I twisted the line for the blood knot either.
     
    The double surgeon's is much stronger than the triple.
     
    All that said, guess what, I use the blood knot for everything.  I could not tell you why though.  It's strong enough for me I guess.

    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
    #10
    Slate_Drake_9
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/25 19:27:05 (permalink)
    A properly tied blood knot is stronger than all of the other "common" knots flyfishers use.  The only draw back of the blood knot is the requirement that the pieces of mono need to be pretty close to each other in size.  If the difference is too big, which is probably the second most common reason they fail (number 1 is weakening of line by not moistening the knot prior to pulling it tight).  If you want to join two "drastically" different sized lines (say 5x to 8x) the triple surgeon's know is best.  Problem with any surgeon's knot (double or triple) is that they are more bulky by nature and they do not join the pieces of line in a straight line, as does the blood knot.
     
    Interesting side note.  Fishermen use the surgeon's knot and surgeon's use the fisherman's knot.
    #11
    thedrake
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/25 19:59:31 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Slate_Drake_9

    A properly tied blood knot is stronger than all of the other "common" knots flyfishers use.  The only draw back of the blood knot is the requirement that the pieces of mono need to be pretty close to each other in size.  If the difference is too big, which is probably the second most common reason they fail (number 1 is weakening of line by not moistening the knot prior to pulling it tight).  If you want to join two "drastically" different sized lines (say 5x to 8x) the triple surgeon's know is best.  Problem with any surgeon's knot (double or triple) is that they are more bulky by nature and they do not join the pieces of line in a straight line, as does the blood knot.

    Interesting side note.  Fishermen use the surgeon's knot and surgeon's use the fisherman's knot.

     
    i completely agree
    #12
    smallhook
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/26 01:13:12 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Slate_Drake_9

    Interesting side note.  Fishermen use the surgeon's knot and surgeon's use the fisherman's knot.

     
    I would want my surgeon to use a piece of thread that was long enough without the need to add a piece, but, my surgeon used staples both times.
    #13
    dano
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/27 22:49:09 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Slate_Drake_9

    A properly tied blood knot is stronger than all of the other "common" knots flyfishers use. 


    ORIGINAL: thedrake
    i completely agree

     
    Yes, you would think. But you'd be wrong.
    SilverKype's test results echo ones that have been done in a laboratory environment.
    Here are some results from an article I clipped and saved ( 1995)
    I posted two results because less stretchy hard material vs stretchy material are factors that come into play.  
    Also, various brands up to 15 lbs were used. Knots were tied using same diameters and brands.
    The tests were performed with a steady pulls of various velocities. Results are averaged.
    All material is monofilament.
     
    Leader to tippet
     % compared to actual tippet strength:
     
                                           characteristics of material
                                           less stretchy          more stretchy
    Blood Knot (4-barrel )  69.7%                   79.3%
    Blood knot ( 6-barrel)   78.1%                   91.2%
    Triple surgeons knot     96.9%                   98.3%
    Surgeons loop to loop   87.9%                   96.6%
    Overhand knot             72.7%                   89.7%                 
     
     
     
    Science and Fly fishing. You just can't get away from it. ****.
    Of course we don't fish in a laboratory so your own results may vary.
       
     

    Gone Fishing
    #14
    Slate_Drake_9
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/28 08:35:33 (permalink)


    Yes, you would think. But you'd be wrong.
    SilverKype's test results echo ones that have been done in a laboratory environment.
    Here are some results from an article I clipped and saved ( 1995)
    I posted two results because less stretchy hard material vs stretchy material are factors that come into play.  
    Also, various brands up to 15 lbs were used. Knots were tied using same diameters and brands.
    The tests were performed with a steady pulls of various velocities. Results are averaged.
    All material is monofilament.

    Leader to tippet
     % compared to actual tippet strength:
     
                                          characteristics of material
                                           less stretchy          more stretchy
    Blood Knot (4-barrel )  69.7%                   79.3%
    Blood knot ( 6-barrel)   78.1%                   91.2%
    Triple surgeons knot     96.9%                   98.3%
    Surgeons loop to loop   87.9%                   96.6%
    Overhand knot             72.7%                   89.7%                 



    Science and Fly fishing. You just can't get away from it. ****.
    Of course we don't fish in a laboratory so your own results may vary.
      


     
    Does this laboratory experiment address knot bulk or the fact that the lines are no longer in a straight line with a surgeon's knot?
     
    4-barrell blood knot...sounds like only 2/3 of a properly tied barrell knot to me, which will affect it's strength.
     
    Did they wet the knots prior to tying them? 

    What are the controls, other than line type?  Do tell.
     
    In my experience with "Science" as well as statistics, anyone can make their point with them using the same data, it just depends on how you look at it. 
     
    My laboratory experiments have been personally conducted while fishing "a lot" over the last 30 years in real (or reel if you prefer) life situations, where it matters the most.
    #15
    dano
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/28 12:06:19 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Slate_Drake_                

    1.) Does this laboratory experiment address knot bulk or the fact that the lines are no longer in a straight line with a surgeon's knot?

    2.) 4-barrell blood knot...sounds like only 2/3 of a properly tied barrell knot to me, which will affect it's strength.

    3.) Did they wet the knots prior to tying them? 

    4.) What are the controls, other than line type?  Do tell.

    5.) In my experience with "Science" as well as statistics, anyone can make their point with them using the same data, it just depends on how you look at it. 

    My laboratory experiments have been personally conducted while fishing "a lot" over the last 30 years in real (or reel if you prefer) life situations, where it matters the most.

     
    Slate,
      Good questions.
     
    I’ll try to answer your questions per that article I clipped and saved.
     
    1.) The article did not mention bulk or line orientation. It addressed only % of strength.
     
    2.) Yes, the 4 barrel blood knot was tested and showed poor results. But the 6 barrel is also tested and reported.
     
    3.)The article did mention that wetting the knot is recommended. It states that to better simulate fishing conditions and because monofilament characteristics change after only a couple of minutes in water,  the material was soaked for two hours before tying.
     Knot tying instructions were referenced mainly from information supplied by Kreh, Sossin, McNally, Harvey ( Harvey knot ) and Orvis ( Orvis knot ).
     
    4.) ( Your asking me to do a lot of re-reading here, Slate ). Not much written on control parameters.
    In fact, they mention very little in terms of controls. They do mention that test were performed under ASTM standards and laboratory conditions.
     
    5.)  I agree with your assessment on Science and stats. The articles primary objective was to find the strongest fishing knots and to share an objective report.
     
    Hope that clears up at least some of your questions.
     
    My personal evaluation is also streamside. I favor the glue coated barrel knot and use it on most of the sections of my leader. It is the straight orientation of the leader that I prefer. But, awhile back during fishing for salmon and steelhead, I had noticed failures with that knot using .013 and thinner diameter mono. I was not only loosing fish but tippet as well. Since then, I have changed the last couple of sections to the trip surgeons knot, I now have had far less failures. That’s a fact.
     
    I’m still looking for the strongest, best performing types of leaders for big fish. The best performing knots are those that are the tippet to fly knot. Knots like the Polamar and Trilene show test results near 100%. Unfortunately, that moves the weakest link to the leader-tippet connection.
    I’d love to try the uni to uni knot but I can’t tie a consistent one with cold wet hands.
     
    I continue to use the clinch knot as the fly connection only becase it is weaker than my leader knots and it sucks when you loose not only a great fish, but fish, fly and tippet.
     
    Only my opinion, though.

     

    Gone Fishing
    #16
    smallhook
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/30 23:41:50 (permalink)
    I was using a perfection loop to perfection loop tonight and it seemed to be fairly strong.  It held my 4 pound tippet material to my leader fairly good and a nice sized catfish help me test it.  Is this a mistake or did I stumble across something good.
    #17
    RIZ
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/07/31 10:19:53 (permalink)
    i like to use the blood knot for leader/tippet connection and clinch knots to the fly. i've used the double surgeons and do not like it at all.  as for the loop to loop using perfection and surgeon loops, they always break either at the knot of the tippet of where the loops touch.  i read that the clinch is stronger than the improved clinch, this seems to bear out.  the reason the improved clinch is used more, in my opinion, is it does not slip as often.  however, if you tie the clinch properly there should be not problem with slipping especially if you go through the eye twice.
    #18
    dano
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    RE: knots for leaders 2007/08/01 23:40:33 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: RIZ
      i read that the clinch is stronger than the improved clinch, this seems to bear out.  the reason the improved clinch is used more, in my opinion, is it does not slip as often. 

     
     I've always assumed that the "improved clinch knot" was an improvement to the original "clinch knot". I guess that sometimes it is.
    For me, that extra turn used to keep the knot from slipping doesn't work as well with fluorocarbon and other stiffer lines. It may have something to do with stiffness along with that extra turn used in the improved version that makes it tough to seat the knot properly. Maybe line properties are different than those past lines. I dunno.
     With fluoro and "improved", i found that with most of the failures the knot did not break but usually slipped.  I had far less failures and or improperly seated knots with the standard "clinch".
    Now, I use only the standard clinch knot because I can tie it quick and confidently and doesn't fail for me as often as the improved knot.  
     

    Gone Fishing
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