i am at the end of my rope

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jlh42581
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2007/06/08 18:49:03 (permalink)

i am at the end of my rope

i am at the end of my rope with my shorthair. I just dont understand this dog at all, if i let her in the house to stay in her kennel while were gone(for example today, cause of the heat) she litterally craps and then slides/flings/romps in it. Should I just insulate her outside stuff and not let her in the house at all? She has shade. What about winter? This has happened at least 5 times, not an isolated incidence.

Also, this dog will not put her nose down in the field, she jumps, romps, runs... birds stand in front of her, she doesnt even look. Ive tried commercial scents dragged around, pretty much everything shy of a real bird. Shes going next weekend to meet some chuckars for the first time. Will this change her?

Ive spent so much time and money on this dog, I will not give up on her. But she has absolutely no respect for my house, my family, nothing! She steps on the fiances feet, chews wires.

What really gets me is short of the putting the nose to the ground she performs well. Heels, woahs, does water retrieves.

What can I do to make this dog WORK, and behave. She is litterally up my****every minute im awake and home. If she cant see me, she bawls.

What do I need to do? HELP!!!!!!!
#1

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    T.T.
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/08 19:01:20 (permalink)
    Not telling you to do it, as I don't think I could, but my Dad shot more "hunting" dogs than we ever successfully trained to hunt.  A gun-shy dog was worse than a cheating wife.(not that my Mom ever strayed, but you know what I mean)  He also couldn't tolerate a dog that couldn't hunt, yet wasn't "guard dog" quality either.  Worse yet, was if the dog was a menace to the house/farm.  I remember trying to get a dog to hunt, which it refused to, and then it would run the chickens and geese we had 'til their feathers were covering the ground.  He tried every trick in the book (he read from an old-school book), yet we only had a couple good hunters through the years.  Realistically, I think he only shot 3 dogs, but that was enough to tell me hunting dogs aint easy, and the few friends I've had over the years who had them confirmed that.  Good luck.
    #2
    fishin coyote
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/09 09:18:57 (permalink)
    Jlh,
    A couple of ?'s
    How old is she now
    Do you have toys for her
    Are you expecting to much to soon.
     
    I have/had many of the same problems as you
    Part of your problem is that she has separation anxiety.
    Here is what I've found out with mine.
     
    The following around the house(the up your arse)or stepping on the feet never stops. LOL thats just the way they are.
     
    Mine also dirtied her kennel.(but not at 1st) How long does she stay in there? Seems as some young dogs can't hold it as long as others. If she is doing it after only an hour or two then it may be due to separation anxiety. Put some toys and 1 of your old sweatshirts in with her or get her a companion.(Cats or small dogs are not good choices) Mine quit after month or so and now I can leave her in the kennel for 8-10 hrs while I'm at work. I also now lock her up with my springer, due to the springers sudden bad habits of getting in the garbage and such.(She's no longer top dog in the house)
     
    The chewing of the wires and such is that she is bored. Get her some toys that make some noise. I like stuffed animals.(Cheap ones although I don't like to clean up what is left of them)
     
    Do not expect her to start hunting as soon as you get out into the field, mine takes 5-10 mins of pure running just to settle down and get interested.  Mine also tends to hunt with her head up but when something gets her interest she drops her nose to the ground and works it out.
    Good luck it takes a lot of patience with GSP's
    Mike
    #3
    steelydaze
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/09 18:57:19 (permalink)
    Only thing I can say is make it fun for the dog when training they'll eventually get it. Alot of praise and treats when they get it right.
    #4
    jlh42581
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/10 17:07:20 (permalink)
    The dog does well for the most part. The kennel, she cant stay inside for more then 2 hours. Maybe she will with time. I guess I shouldnt complain too much. For 6 months old, she is a really good dog. She just gets under my skin sometimes.
    #5
    Pheasant Hunter
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/10 22:52:53 (permalink)
         Don't give up on her. It's just a stage, and if you can deal with it calmly, she'll get over it more quickly.  If you're gone long hours, it might be best to keep her outside during that time. Just make sure she has good shelter, with lots of shade, and plenty of fresh water, that she can't tip over. Make time for her every day, if possible, and try to make it fun for her. The more she's around the family, and gets positive attention for good behavior, the sooner the bad behaviors will stop. She's still a puppy and needs lots of attention. I agree with fishin coyote. She has separation anxiety and is bored, so she'll chew on anything and everything, just to occupy time. Wait until she discovers your shoes. 
         It does take some considerable time and patience, that first year to year and a half. But, hang in there and keep working with her and one of these days, you'll be surprised at how far she's come.
         Also, don't feed her right before you kennel her... that's just asking for trouble and setting her up for an accident. Feed her at least an hour or so before you're going to leave, and make sure she has at least 15 - 30 minutes outside, before she goes in the kennel for the day.
         As for her not being focused, it takes time. Once she has a few birds brought down in front of her, you may see a whole different dog. It took my Brittany most of her first season to "get it." She would hide behind me and cower, every time she heard a shot. She was so scared, she was trembling. After she saw a dozen or so birds go down, it finally just clicked. Now, I can't get out the door, if I'm dressed in orange and carrying a gun, and every shot has her scanning the sky for a falling bird.
         Just to clarify, I'm no expert. I'm just sharing what has worked for me, with my Brittany and 2 Chocolate Labs, and mine have turned out to be excellent in my home and in the field. They still take a good 5 minutes to settle down and hunt, when I first turn them loose, but after that, they're all business and never disappoint me.
    Good luck and hang in there!!!

    Visit my website, featuring outdoors and recreation in Warren County, Pennsylvania: http://warrenpa.ws
    #6
    griffon
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/11 08:43:03 (permalink)
    Jeremy,  When you were talking about getting a pup I had suggested that you get Joan Bailey's book and read it cover to cover.  I am guessing that you did not do that.  That said, do yourself and your family a favor  and go get the book.  My family has trained bird dogs for over forty years with many different breeds.  All of our dogs have been house dogs and most were very well established in the field (all dogs have varying degrees of ability).  I have used almost every training technique available and have practically every piece of media ever created regarding dog training.  In my humble, honest opinion there is no better method to create a well mannered bird dog and family pet.  I did not go into the detail that others may have when I gave my advice, there was no need as the book does that.  FYI, I will be investing in another Griffon this winter as I just put my old boy down last week.  I can assure you that my new pup will be trained using Joan's techniques.  Good Luck with your pup, Griffon. 
    #7
    pghmarty
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    bird dog
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/12 18:08:57 (permalink)
    Jeremy -
     
    Coyote and griffon gave you some good advice. I'll add my 2 cents.
     
    First of all I could not agree with Griffon more about the dog should be a house dog. I've had years of experience with shorthairs, mostly through rescue, and I can tell you that keeping a shorthair outside is one of the worst things you can do. They are EXTREMELY people oriented and need to be with you (that's the "up your butt" thing. If you can't get used to that a shorthair is not for you.) Also, keeping her outside for extended periods will NOT help the housebreaking or messing her crate or teach her house manners. Dogs do not want to soil their den and maybe she's confused about what her den is. Is it outside? is it inside? Is it the crate? A six month pup needs consistency. Pick a routine and try to stay with it. It is also possible that her crate is too big. She should be able to stand up and turn around and does not need much more room than that.
     
    Coyote is right on about giving her toys, chewies, etc. Puppies need to chew and need something to do. These things provide both. Once she learns what is hers she will leave the other stuff alone.
     
    I will leave the hunting stuff to people more expert than me. I have had a lot of experience in caring for these dogs, most of which come to me with less than an ideal past. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.
     
    All of the behaviors you describe are typical for such a young dog, particularly a shorthair. They are a wonderful breed but are not for everybody. They can be very complicated dogs and require a lot of your time. If for some reason you decide the dog is too much please do not take her to a shelter. GSP Rescue PA will take her. We are also there to help in whatever way we can. You can check out our website at www.GSPRescuePA.org.
     
    Good luck.
     
    BTW - The stepping on your feet is a GSP thing. It's part of their "velcro dog" personality and is a way to be close to you. Tell your fiance to get used to it.
    #9
    duncsdad
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/12 19:32:54 (permalink)
    Jeremy,
     
    Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier.
     
    I can't hlp you with the house/crate thing, my bird dogs split their time between a kennel and a heated "Mutt Hut."  They only com ein the house for about an hour or so each day.  That is not to say they are neglected, they, and we, just prefer them to be outside.
     
    As for the nose to the ground issue -- STOP NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    Pointing dogs locate birds through a scent cone produced by the birds "BODY" scent.  That is why they run with their heads up.  The scent cone gets wider as it drifts up and away from the bird.  In competition circles, if a pointing dog puts its nose to the ground it is culled and no further training time is wasted on the dog.
     
    By using commercial scents, which suck by the way, on a drag, you are inadvertantly teaching your dog to foot track.  While that is great for a flushing dog that tracks foot scent, all it teaches a pointing dog to do to push running birds which will more than likely flush at the next cover break which is always out of shotgun range.  Or, worse yet, it teaches them to pursue a moving bird and the bird gets bumped.  Once your pointing dog finds out how much fun it is to bust birds, you will have a long row to hoe to get it back to being staunch and steady.
     
    There is no substiute for live birds.  Remember bird is a bird dog's first name.  Whether you use quail, which I prefer, or chukars, because they are available, here is a simple method I use.
     
    Go to LCSupply.com and look up the garden hose tethers for birds.  Basically it is a a section of garden hose with string that attaches to each of the bird's feet.  LC sells them, but I made my own.  Hook up the bird to the tether, dizzy it by spinning in a sack, and place the bird in a piece of light cover that you can easily identify.  Repeat this with four birds.
     
    Put you dog on a lead -- about 25 feet is good for a pup and run her arounf for about 10 minutes so he gets accustomed to the check cord.  Then lead her with the wind in her face toward one of the birds.  As soon as she startes to get birdy (she may even point -- all of mine did), lightly tighten up on the check cord and command "whoa" (since oyu have worked on this with her).  Milk your way down the cord to her side and gently stroke her commanding whoa softly and tellign her she is a good girl.  Get a firm grip on her collar.  Have someone else circle around in front so she can plainly see them and have them lift the bird by the hose.  It will flap a lot and excite the dog.  Give the genlt whoa.  After a few seconds, have the person release the bird.  While it flies away, have that person fire the blank gun.
     
    After the bird lands, release the dog and head in a completely opposite direction of the bird (retrieve training comes later).  while you do the 10 minute run around thing, the other person can pick up the bird (it only flew a short distance because of the hose) for reuse.  Repeat this for all four birds, then quit.
     
    After a few sessions, you will start to see the wheels turning and Ginger will be on her way.
     
    If oyu have any other questions, just ask.

    Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion
    #10
    jlh42581
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/14 13:28:10 (permalink)
    Ok guys, thanks for the advise as usual. Im going to a smaller crate for when shes in the house. Being in the house all day is not what this dog wants. Shes one that comes in, and five minutes later wants to go back outside. I dont want anyone to get the wrong idea here. Im not gonna give up on her. I spend lots of time with her, prob more then most people who own hunting dogs do. To say I spend 2 hours solid of paying attention to the dog would be an understatement. She has me so locked up on time Ive fished twice in the last month. My fly box is completely empty. Im in constant search of finding ways to better the dog whether its better nutrition or helping her learn. Shes going to have her first experience with live birds on saturday. I just simply couldnt get her anywhere up untill now and finding birds has become a struggle. If anyone is willing to sell me any, you let me know. I wont drive 200 miles to pick up some pidgeons though, just so you know, lol! As far as the GSP rescue thing, yeah that aint gonna happen cause like I said, im not gonna get rid of her. I actually looked into the rescue for a dog and they recommended that I dont try to hunt those dogs. I think most anyone who isnt a pro trainer would look at this dog and be impressed. I honestly dont think she truely wants to be inside. She is inside every morning, and every evening from the time I get home until I go to bed. The only thing I did was eliminate the trouble she was having. Im going to buy a smaller kennel today, so if anyone needs one, check the general section for non fishing related items. You'll see it there.

    Thanks again.
    #11
    duncsdad
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/21 05:44:37 (permalink)
    Jeremy,
     
    How did you make out with the live birds at Warriors Mark?

    Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion
    #12
    MICK FISH
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/27 21:07:00 (permalink)
    I have always had labs.  In my experience they can not handle the bowel movements for any amount of time until 12 months or a little longer.  I can fully understand your frustrations coming home to find a crate and dog covered in feces!  You will be amazed what a difference you will see in the next 6-8 months!  Be patient.
    #13
    IUP30
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/27 21:31:45 (permalink)
    Really??? My lab messed in his crate one time and has been completely housetrained with no accidents since he was 4 months old.  Not saying he hadn't thrown up in that time...he'd always do that in the middle of the night waking me up with hacking.  Sucked!  Maybe I got lucky but that one time was absolutely TERRIBLE... let's just say he re-decorated the 2 walls his crate was next to...
    #14
    jlh42581
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/06/28 17:41:15 (permalink)
    She didnt do phenominal there but we brought two home. We ran into the guys from NAVHDA and they gave me some sound advice. She finally understands what the bird smell meens, after about two solid weeks of working with them every day. Im getting ready to build a pigeon recall pen here in the next week. Im looking for some pigeons if anyone has any. Im planning to also join the club in the near future. I almost 100% certain she can recieve a prize in NA.
    #15
    jlh42581
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/07/02 08:31:21 (permalink)
    By the way, went to the smaller crate. She pee'd in it once. Ive been letting her stay inside at night because she will be getting fixed on friday. Ive also started to control when she eats, not a mess since.
    #16
    Beedhed
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/07/03 22:29:42 (permalink)
    Check this link out.Lots of great information there.Lots of good people to help out .

    Good luck with your GSP

    http://refugeforums.com/refuge/forumdisplay.php?f=9
    post edited by Beedhed - 2007/07/03 22:30:05
    #17
    duncsdad
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/07/04 19:05:22 (permalink)
    Jeremy,
     
    Don't be surprised if Ginger won't work with pidgeons.  None of my English Pointers wanted anything to do with them.  Several English Setters that Ihave worked with didn't either -- other than a momentary point before moving on.
     
    Quail seem to work much better.  And every quail trained dog that Ihave been around have moved on to chukars, grouse, and pheasants without any issues.

    Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion
    #18
    woodnickle
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    RE: i am at the end of my rope 2007/07/05 07:46:17 (permalink)
    A friend of mine just released a bunch of quail, so I took my lab over to see what would happen. His lab caught and ate the birds. Needless to say we tyied him up, then took mine back to where they flushed. She started sniffing around and flushed one that only flew abought 8ft. Told her to find the bird and bingo she flushed it again. Called her back, praised her then quit. First time trying this and am very pleased. If you can take her to a bird farm an bring some treats and praise her when all is done correctly. Alot of fun too.

    #19
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