Stillhead
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Gone
Surprised nobody else posted it yet, maybe I missed it. A wire with posted signs is now strung across Elk at the first bend at the downstream end of folly's end property
post edited by Stillhead - 2016/10/24 18:29:55
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Stillhead
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I don't know the answer to that. All I know is for years it was open, the landowner just asked that everyone stay out during the 2 week rifle deer season. I don't know if it's still the same landowner or anything about it other than there is a wire strung across the creek with posted signs.
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Silverbullet_11
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How far down? There has been a wire with posted sign across the stream below the cliffs for years now. Is this further up towards Foleys?
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LipRippa97
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Ya it has always been posted about a half mile down from follys. Which is a **** shame cuz there is som amazing water down there! So I'd ask the same question...did someone post closer to follys?
A bad day fishing is better than a good of anything. I don't always exercise my shoulders...but when I do I fish for steelhead....
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Stillhead
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This is a new wire at the downstream end of follys property, if standing in the hole behind folly's shop looking downstream it's strung across the fast water at the bend.
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Silverbullet_11
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Re: Gone
2016/10/24 19:10:59
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☄ Helpfulby LipRippa97 2016/10/26 04:39:19
That's a darn shame. The state needs to step in and do something as we pay for the steelhead on those properties that people are posting and making money off of, but at the same time I don't blame the landowners taking advantage of the current law. It really sucks as most people are very respectful but a few bad eggs have ruined it for all of us.
post edited by Silverbullet_11 - 2016/10/24 19:16:31
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LipRippa97
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Yea that is unfortunate. I really like that stretch of water. Except for having to walk back when finished due to the previously posted land. Had a few stellar days in the winter down that stretch. Tree down in the water built a back flow up a lil bit at one stretch and me and a buddy hooked probably 35 out of it. Under fished down there. Appears that won't be the case anymore...
A bad day fishing is better than a good of anything. I don't always exercise my shoulders...but when I do I fish for steelhead....
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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Elk continues to shrink up more and more ......that makes it private water from upper Legion area ( Green's property ) all the way to that wire ! Basically all the best water has been posted and continues to expand !
Not much of a future for Elk Creek fishing or Steelheading.
More limited access with over crowded conditions just adds fuel to the fire......too bad .
It's like playing golf but only four holes are open to the public the rest is private !
Time for the Fish Commission to change gears on this program it's fading fast.
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fisherofmen376
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As long as duuds can pull into a parking lot and have a chance at a ten pahhnder, the circus will continue.
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." Matthew 4:19
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PooFLinger
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fisherofmen376
As long as duuds can pull into a parking lot and have a chance at a ten pahhnder, the circus will continue.
maybe thats why the fish are gettin smaller 🤔
Gill em to kill em then Rope em smoke em
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jat1007
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i know its old but how about that posted section behind the house in sterretenia..... literally just that hole is posted... the big ropes with signs is more of an eye sore than the three or four fisherman that can fit in that hole..... wonder if you can just stand upstream and drift down in too the hole.... hahah...
a stroke of a pen from the right person....could change all this posted WATER.... make the stream beds not "postable" property...
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jat1007
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the needs of the many (fishermen) out weigh the needs of the few... lol
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genieman77
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jat1007
the needs of the many (fishermen) out weigh the needs of the few... lol
When navigable waters act was passed in 1803, one could argue there was a need to facilitate the flow of commerce. Hard to argue there's a "need" for recreation that tramples the rights of a property owner though Big difference IMO from farmer/merchant needing a hi way (what rivers were back then) to get beans and bacon to market and recreation seekers Posted creeks bums me out too. But I'm not in favor of of imposing our recreational wants on the guy that pays the mortgage . That's tyranny of the masses......not a good thing LTA
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DarDys
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^^^^^^
A lot of posting, especially streamside, has to do with liability.
My homesite would qualify for Ag reserve under clean and green (because of a lack of agricultural viability to grow at least $2,000 of profit from crops, it does not qualify for Ag use). Ag reserve requires that the public have access, although it can be somewhat restricted.
Because of the liability, I am choosing to pay over $1,200 per year in addition property taxes.
The property has a stream (trip and fall); a tree house (fall); cut fields (hole trip and fall); cover grasses for training my bird dogs (live gun fire, animal issues); etc. I don't need the exposure.
Yes, one can still get sued even if the ground is posted, but the odds of the landowner winning go up dramatically if the injured person was willfully trespassing.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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SaltWaterRocks
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Actually, a law passed quite a few years ago(in PA) prevents recreational sportsmen from suing a landowner if they allow FREE use of their land. If you charge a fee, all bets are off. I have read several court cases which tried to hold the landowner accountable and, in each case, it was overturned. And since you are allowed to counter-sue for legal fees now, there haven't been any of this type of case in a while. Just my $.02.
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bingsbaits
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Bullship.. Just an excuse the landowners use to try and justify keeping people off of "their" property.
Nothing but a smoke screen so they don't seem like greedy basturds.
477-4. Assurance of safe premises; duty of care; responsibility, liability
Except as specifically recognized by or provided in section 6 of this act, an owner of land who either directly or indirectly invites or permits without charge any person to use such property for recreational purposes does not thereby:
(1) Extend any assurance that the premises are safe for any purpose.
(2) Confer upon such person the legal status of an invitee or licensee to whom a duty of care is owed.
(3) Assume responsibility for or incur liability for any injury to persons or property caused by an act of omission of such persons.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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crawlerman2
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Maybe a tax break for the property owners that open their streamside property. Or increase the cost of the Erie stamp to $20 for 5 years to buy easements.
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genieman77
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Re: Gone
2016/10/25 11:30:31
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☄ Helpfulby crappiefisher 2016/10/25 22:02:53
bingsbaits
Bullship.. Just an excuse the landowners use to try and justify keeping people off of "their" property.
donno ..maybe ..but i don't think they need an "excuse" or need to "justify" anything to be quite frank my neighbors might think my back yard would be a great place for horse shoes, volley ball or baseball . I'm reasonably sure few would advocate I be forced to open it up to them. Yet for some reason, many think just because they "buy a fishing license", they have a right to other's property. who knows why..."entitlement" mentality maybe??  ..L.T.A.
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DarDys
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bingsbaits
Bullship.. Just an excuse the landowners use to try and justify keeping people off of "their" property.Nothing but a smoke screen so they don't seem like greedy basturds.477-4. Assurance of safe premises; duty of care; responsibility, liabilityExcept as specifically recognized by or provided in section 6 of this act, an owner of land who either directly or indirectly invites or permits without charge any person to use such property for recreational purposes does not thereby:(1) Extend any assurance that the premises are safe for any purpose.(2) Confer upon such person the legal status of an invitee or licensee to whom a duty of care is owed.(3) Assume responsibility for or incur liability for any injury to persons or property caused by an act of omission of such persons.Â
Well, even with the property being posted, in the two years I have owned it, I have had to go tell folks on five occasions to get out of my treehouse -- even with posters on the tree it is in and the ladder. These nice folks parked in my driveway and walked through my yard to get there. But I guess I'm the greedy one, after all, all I did was pay for the property and the taxes.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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D-nymph
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DarDys
Well, even with the property being posted, in the two years I have owned it, I have had to go tell folks on five occasions to get out of my treehouse -- even with posters on the tree it is in and the ladder. These nice folks parked in my driveway and walked through my yard to get there.
Your deer stand? Wow, I don't know what makes people do stuff like that. Parking in your driveway to hunt your stand without permission? sheesh.
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jat1007
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well were no talking about a back yard, were talking about a creek that goes thru property... there's a difference....and i said stream bed, there is only so many bodies of water and only so many tribs... over 80% of the stream goes thru property where there is no direct contact with the land owners or builidings etc..... most of the creek runs thru basically a gorge... its all about having control and screwin the next guy not hard to figure out...
maybe i am biased bc i dont own property a heavily fished body of water travels thru.
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jat1007
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thats just pure stupidity on their end.. DarDys
bingsbaits
Bullship.. Just an excuse the landowners use to try and justify keeping people off of "their" property.Nothing but a smoke screen so they don't seem like greedy basturds.477-4. Assurance of safe premises; duty of care; responsibility, liabilityExcept as specifically recognized by or provided in section 6 of this act, an owner of land who either directly or indirectly invites or permits without charge any person to use such property for recreational purposes does not thereby:(1) Extend any assurance that the premises are safe for any purpose.(2) Confer upon such person the legal status of an invitee or licensee to whom a duty of care is owed.(3) Assume responsibility for or incur liability for any injury to persons or property caused by an act of omission of such persons.
Well, even with the property being posted, in the two years I have owned it, I have had to go tell folks on five occasions to get out of my treehouse -- even with posters on the tree it is in and the ladder. These nice folks parked in my driveway and walked through my yard to get there.
But I guess I'm the greedy one, after all, all I did was pay for the property and the taxes.
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genieman77
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jat1007
over 80% of the stream goes thru property where there is no direct contact with the land owners or builidings etc..... most of the creek runs thru basically a gorge... don't know the percentages, Jat. do know more than a little is in sight of homes ..and some spots are literally their back yard Like Rick rd or doberman hole its all about having control and screwin the next guy not hard to figure out... That one I don't understand, Little Brother . You'll have to explain how closing a property someone else paid for with their own hard owned money, pays taxes on is some how "screwing" anyone?? seriously, i don't understand that logic maybe i am biased bc i dont own property a heavily fished body of water travels thru.
I'm glad to see you can be objective .L.T.A.
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jat1007
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"big brother" it limits fishing accessibility ... that is basically what this whole topic is about...
the majority of elk passes thru areas where homes are not visible, especially due to the stream bed is much lower elevation.... im not talking about trudging thru ppls property im taking about staying in the stream bed...
just like in hunting you have to be so many yards away from a structure or whatever the law is... something along those lines could be implmented and maybe everyone could be happy with a compromise ...
my whole point is that it would be nice if something could be done to open up some of these areas and get money grubbin guides to get a real job....
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DarDys
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D-nymph
DarDys
Well, even with the property being posted, in the two years I have owned it, I have had to go tell folks on five occasions to get out of my treehouse -- even with posters on the tree it is in and the ladder. These nice folks parked in my driveway and walked through my yard to get there.
Your deer stand? Wow, I don't know what makes people do stuff like that. Parking in your driveway to hunt your stand without permission? sheesh.
It's not actually a deer stand, although I let a retired State Trooper hunt out of it during the senior season. It is a 12' X 12' platform with rails 15' in the seven trunk tree. It was built by the developer before I bought it. We use it for picnics, as it over looks the creek. Actually, I've never had anyone trespass to hunt out of it. Which is odd. I have had people in it literally with their pants down when I approached them to ask if they knew where they were (just in case they made a honest mistake in showing up there). I've also had one of the folks that I escourted out after I saw a light go up in the air from my kitchen window complaint to me that they hit their van door on a metal post when they got out of their vehicle. Guess what was on that metal post? Yep, a no trespassing sign. Claimed they didn't see it. I've had folks just wonder across and when I asked them if they were lost, they always said "no," they were just taking a short cut. Of course that short cut meant they crossed two other pieces of posted property before getting to me and would still need to cross two more before they got to where they said they were headed.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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DarDys
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jat1007
well were no talking about a back yard, were talking about a creek that goes thru property... there's a difference....and i said stream bed, there is only so many bodies of water and only so many tribs... over 80% of the stream goes thru property where there is no direct contact with the land owners or builidings etc.
The stream on my property is in my yard, albeit a distance away, so the discussion must include that scenario because property rights are not determined on a case by case basis.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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jat1007
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DarDys
jat1007
well were no talking about a back yard, were talking about a creek that goes thru property... there's a difference....and i said stream bed, there is only so many bodies of water and only so many tribs... over 80% of the stream goes thru property where there is no direct contact with the land owners or builidings etc.
The stream on my property is in my yard, albeit a distance away, so the discussion must include that scenario because property rights are not determined on a case by case basis.
"just like in hunting you have to be so many yards away from a structure or whatever the law is... something along those lines could be implmented and maybe everyone could be happy with a compromise ..."
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Silverbullet_11
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Re: Gone
2016/10/25 13:38:34
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☄ Helpfulby LipRippa97 2016/10/26 05:27:14
It's an interesting topic for sure. Is everyone aware of the Little Juniata river being deemed navigable, so it was opened up to public fishing as long as people stayed within the stream bed so there is a precedent. I am torn as I believe that everyone has a right to do whatever the heck they want with their property as long as they aren't breaking any laws. In this case however, a state funded resource on private property is being restricted to landowners on certain stretches. Some of the landowners are using money raised by fishing licenses for their own profit by leasing the areas to guides or charging trespassing fees. Basically the same thing happens within the DSR on the Salmon River, but at a corporate level compared to individual landowners charging. I am from Wyoming, and the state would offer payments, tax breaks, etc. to landowners that open their property for public access. I would like to see that, as it would be fair for everyone. If the landowner refuses to open the stream bed, they are restricted to not profit through use of guides or trespassing fees.
post edited by Silverbullet_11 - 2016/10/25 15:35:40
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Porktown
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SaltWaterRocks
And since you are allowed to counter-sue for legal fees now, there haven't been any of this type of case in a while.
Just curious if you happen to have any reference to this? My attorney has told me the opposite in a rather pricey dispute that I am in, involving real estate. Possibly real estate laws are written differently? Not allowing to sue for legal fees, really puts the clamp on an individual vs. large companies. They can, and will, keep cases active until you are broke. Ohio allows, PA does not, at least according to my attorney.
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bigbear2012
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Silverbullet_11
It's an interesting topic for sure. Is everyone aware of the Little Juniata river being deemed navigable, so it was opened up to public fishing as long as people stayed within the stream bed so there is a precedent. I am torn as I believe that everyone has a right to do whatever the heck they want with their property as long as they aren't breaking any laws. In this case however, a state funded resource on private property is being restricted to landowners on certain stretches. Some of the landowners are using money raised by fishing licenses for their own profit by leasing the areas to guides or charging trespassing fees. Basically the same thing happens within the DSR on the Salmon River, but at a much corporate level than individual landowners charging.
I am from Wyoming, and the state would offer payments, tax breaks, etc. to landowners that open their property for public access. I would like to see that, as it would be fair for everyone. If the landowner refuses to open the stream bed, they are restricted to not profit through use of guides or trespassing fees.
Pa does have a program to try to secure fishing rights to the properties along the creeks. However, as you can imagine, once the land owner is angry it is an up hill battle. Just very sad that we loose more and more each year. Yet there are still those that treat it like they have a right to another's property. Be gracious and thankful if you have access. 
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