Big Tuna
DarDys, I know your into the birddog thing butI remember you did shoot some deer in past year from you treesack. What's was it like this year for you on deer sightings?Here in Beaver co. It doesn't even seem like gun season,most of my hunting friends are in their 50's to early 60's and not one of them shot a buck. The deer are just not here.

I stopped venturing to the mountain ground in Clearfield County a few years ago because of the lack of deer. It took about 4-5 years of AR/HR to change the population from seeing 20-40 deer in a day, including legal bucks to hopefully seeing a deer. The genetics and food are just not there to promote big bucks, don't care how long they live -- chihuahuas never get to be Great Danes.

It was a hard thing to give that area up since I hunted there for over 40 years. But I go hunting to shoot things and that was no longer happening.

I now hunt private ground closer to home and counting the surrounding farms, there are over 2000 acres with less than a dozen hunters.

Sightings are based on natural movement since the deer are never pushed.

Monday I saw 14, with one being a half rack. I shot a CWD tag doe.

On the surrounding mountains, which are GL, I heard about 20-30 shots all day, and this is CWD open.

Heading out right now.

I disagree.  Genetics are overrated unless you are after B&C class bucks.  Age is the biggest limiting factor when it comes to antler size and here in PA, roughly half of the bucks we kill are 1.5 YO.  Yet, many of people still continue to assess the effectiveness of AR and antler size in general based on these young bucks.  Virtually any mature buck (3.5+ YO) killed in this state will sport a very respectable rack.
 
As of a few years back, PA ranked 9th I believe in P&Y entries per square mile.  Just something else for everyone to consider.   

I think what Esox is saying was that of coarse genetics play a part, but it isnt the end all limiting factor to a respectable PA buck. His statement said genetics play a big part in growing B&C bucks, not every buck can grow to be B&C, not every bass will make 5lbs, not every musky can grow to 50".
 
I think it would be awesome to shoot a 120" 6 point, or a spike with heavy 12" tines. 
 
I shot a 120" 8 point this year, thats the biggest PA buck my side of the family (going back 3 generations) has ever shot. We are excited, that buck wont make P&Y we are still excited. 
 
How many people watch tv show that have "Cull" bucks they shoot, they are like 120-130" bucks (some of them) those are great deer, with poor genetics.
 
I think i explained what he ment 

Thanks Anzomcik, I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say.

As I recall, the reason for AR was to allow a buck to get to be 2 years old or older as we (the hunters) were shooting the majority of 1.5 to 2 year old deer preventing, the deer from reaching maturity.   We were told the older deer would in fact produce larger "racks" and be heavier bodied.  
 
During the "smoke and mirror" sessions one could see,  both excitement and, disappointment among the hunters.  Those wishing to kill for antler size and "record book" recognition were salivating (as in drooling) while visions of "record book" bucks, danced in their heads.  
 
Those wanting to kill for the meat, were shaking their heads in disgust as they constantly heard "meat hunters" could kill the doe.  
 
The real winner's, the "kill for thrill" dudes were wringing their hands in delight when, they learned of the PGC's plan of doe reduction.  
 
Every time the speaker mentioned less does means less chance for "smaller bucks passing on their inferior genes", heavy breathing could be heard.
 
Least not forget, the nutrition factor, we had to understand that deer would starve to death because some areas couldn't provide enough food, especially during the winter.
 
The "record book" racks were just as much a reality before AR as they are now except hunters may have had to travel to other parts of the state like, (what is now) WMU 2G, 2C, 4A or 4B.  
 
Before AR it wasn't uncommon to see 6 to 10 point bucks being taken in most areas of PA. and it didn't matter if the 6 point scored "180" and the 10 point scored "100", the ten point commanded the bragging rights and, few if any true hunters, gave a rats azz about Pope & Young or Boone & Crockett.   It didn't matter how many points your buck had because, in the minds of those hunters, we were proud to have bagged a buck. 
 
The nice thing about hunting today,  those same proud hunters still exist and, we're still disgusted with the results of the "smoke & mirrors.
 
S10 thanks for taking the time to post the "Summary Results", it brought back memories of what I was taught by the PGC, back in the early sixties.
 
Disclaimer:  These comments are the sole opinion of a proud PA. hunter having no record, in any books.

I remember when my dad shot a 6 point when I was a little boy. We had neighbors coming to see buck. It was a big deal. I remember playing with the rack think how big it was. I still have it. It isn't all that big but at that time It was huge. I hope some day my daughter or son can get a shot at one like that in 10-11 years from now. It's all relative.

So much has changed. Internet, Facebook, texting ,trail cams ,food plots ,tv channels, big box stores, optics, scent control, an aging hunting population. Things are always changing and old memories will alway be there.

A side note.
I am taking a friend hunting Saturday. He has never gone before. I hope to show him a legal buck and hopes he makes a clean kill. He is in his upper 20's. I am excited to introduce him to hunting. It's never to late

S-10
Genetcs ex.----- poor= yearling spike, three or four point with 5' spread
                        good= yearling eight point with 12" spread
                       

A bucks first set of antlers is a very poor indication of their antler potential.  There has been a lot of research on the once a spike always a spike myth to confirm this.  Further, your position assumes that growth is linear and it is quite simply is not.   
 
I frequently see spikes and tiny forkhorns in the areas I hunt.  That has been typical since well before AR.  Yet, miraculously the area I hunt is well known for putting out some of the biggest bucks in the state year after year.  
 
Two good friends of mine went on a guided whitetail hunt in Kansas this year.  They saw lots of spikes and wee little 3, 4, or 5 points and both commented about how the 1.5 YO bucks looked just the same as they do in PA.  This is on a property where B&C caliber bucks are killed somewhat regularly and 200" bucks have been killed nearby.  And virtually any 3.5 YO buck (assuming its not busted up) will meet the outfitter minimum of 135" gross.  How can this be if they have so many genetically inferior bucks around?         
 
 

BTDT

Yes I had to wait till I was 12. I sat in a tree once with my dad when I was maybe 8. It was archery. He had a recurve and I remember 3 deer came in. He shot at them missed like 4 times ran out of arrows. It was simpler then. We did not prep in sent lock or wash down. I was a boy who wanted to go with dad. I can't remember if he practiced much but the end result was I had a story of hunting with dad.

I hope my friend can have a story to. I put off his hunt for Saturday because I have a die tag. So now even if buck doesn't show I can still show him what to do and take a doe with him there. But my luck is I shoot 4 times and run out of bullets. It will be fun

BeenThereDoneThat.
Anzomcik, did ya by chance have to wait til you were twelve years old to hunt?
 
Good luck Sat. it'll be nice to see your buddy take a buck and even nicer to know he learned it's about the hunt and not necessarily the kill.
 
By the way, I think it only fair he know, in advance, a miss could cost him a shirttail!!
 
 
Yes, I too am missing (just) a few, shirttails (lol)
 
 
 

In our neck of the woods, a miss means you have to eat a raisin. The raisins can be found in little piles on the deer trails.
 
BH

The piece that some folks are missing in the genetics discussion is not about antler size, but rather antler defects.

From the Clearfield County spot I mentioned that I no longer frequent, our family has over 100 sets of antlers. Of those, there are four distinct gene pools. Two of those gene pools have a genetic defect for antler breakage.

With antler restrictions, those bucks will NEVER be AR legal, no matter go long they live or how well they eat (which in the mountains is not well most of the time). The antlers are not broken fighting other more dominant bucks, but rather snap when removing velvet.

So Day One of AR, about half of the buck population is out of the getting shot game, but still very much in the breeding game.

As the other two gene pools get shot off, especially the one that produces 1.5 year old sixes and eights, the population quickly shifts toward the broken antler cohort group. It is not long until they are in the majority. And do the majority of breeding, thereby passing along this defect marker.

Tried a new area of my little piece of Penn's Woods today with the same results as the other places, nothing.  I did see signs there was, or must of been, deer in the area within the past 30 days.
 
Wasn't a total loss, I did enjoy exploring new turf and the lay of the land was certainly fascinating, to a point.  Lots of 'benches', hills and, valleys (filled with stuff you will sink, to your shins in).  You know the stuff I'm talking about, when you take a step and wish you were wearing your "muck boots" instead of your ankle highs. 
 
Beside wanting to see what a deer looks like in the wilderness, I scoped the area for possible tree stand sights to use in second season archery, to which I am happy to say, found a few spots that may (with the changes in doe season) pay off in 5 years.
 
Saw one other hunter, to whom I didn't know if I should apologize or, mother-Ph**k.  While he walked directly toward my location, I was leaning against a tree watching him, as he made more noise than a Bull on crutches, trying to make his way through the woods.  Less than 30 ft. from me I pushed myself away from the tree only to scare the bejesus out of this dude.  When his head snapped up, I saw why he didn't know I was standing there, he had some of the thickest lenses in his glasses that I think I have ever seen.  
 
Here I am in my cute orange beanie and tailored orange jacket looking debonair leaning against a tree, with this guy coming straight at me and, 30 ft away............ HE DOESN'T SEE ME!!!  
 
In as much as I would like to tell the entire story, I think I'll just leave it right here and hope I can fall asleep tonight.  But I will mention, he was hunting with a 30-06.
 
I spent about 6 hrs still hunting and, exploring today and, truthfully have to say I enjoyed every minute of the adventure even though I will have to return to retrieve my azz which, I left dragging behind.
 
Good luck to everyone venturing out in the morning and be safe.

This morning ya won't have to wear "hunter orange" while seeking to 'harvest' the "Elusive White-Tailed Deer" in my little piece of "The Pennsylvania Wilds".
 
Your gonna need a "fog horn"................            .
 
I know ya ain't gonna believe this crap butttttttttttt,   the air is frozen.
 
 
I'm going fishing.............if I can find the dang boat!!!!!
 
Be safe and good luck to those of YOU seeking.

Son and I got blanked yesterday evening in 2b as well.  Definitely has been heavy deer traffic there since it rained on Tuesday.  
 
Sounded a little more like gun season in 2b yesterday too.  
 
Sitting today out, unfortunately.  Back at it Monday evening.  

Slow day for us today. Deer were not moving to much by my stand. But I can't complain. Had my first time hunting friend out.

The woods were spooky silent. I heard 132 shots by 9 am. The 133rd shot was the important one.

My friend dropped the hammer and a great 9 point. It was the 4th deer we seen. 100 yard shot through a small opening in the beach brush. Deer ran 50-60 yards and piled up in full stride.

The level of excitement he showed really brought a whole new level of enjoyment to this successful hunt.

Congrats on a great looking buck ....
BTDT ... I hear ya...was in my shanty at 6:30 by 10 ya could finally ( kinda) see after the heavy fog !! Stayed until 1:00 heard 3 shots ...... So called it a day.... Yep Stupid deer ...