Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
DarDys
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 10:52:05
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Big Tuna DarDys, I know your into the birddog thing butI remember you did shoot some deer in past year from you treesack. What's was it like this year for you on deer sightings?Here in Beaver co. It doesn't even seem like gun season,most of my hunting friends are in their 50's to early 60's and not one of them shot a buck. The deer are just not here.
I stopped venturing to the mountain ground in Clearfield County a few years ago because of the lack of deer. It took about 4-5 years of AR/HR to change the population from seeing 20-40 deer in a day, including legal bucks to hopefully seeing a deer. The genetics and food are just not there to promote big bucks, don't care how long they live -- chihuahuas never get to be Great Danes. It was a hard thing to give that area up since I hunted there for over 40 years. But I go hunting to shoot things and that was no longer happening. I now hunt private ground closer to home and counting the surrounding farms, there are over 2000 acres with less than a dozen hunters. Sightings are based on natural movement since the deer are never pushed. Monday I saw 14, with one being a half rack. I shot a CWD tag doe. On the surrounding mountains, which are GL, I heard about 20-30 shots all day, and this is CWD open. Heading out right now.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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r3g3
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 12:36:47
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Have hunted a few states over time and different places in most and DarDys has hit the nail on the head with genetics IMHO. Once took a 3 1/2 year old healthy Buck in the Cats-- it was a spike. With several knowing guys in that Catskill camp over a few years a number of mature bucks were taken - few if any that some consider 'shooters'. In one Ct. area I hunted alone for years mature bucks with great tines and heavy mass rarely, if ever, got over a 16 inch spread. Another Ct. area I now hunt has 2 1/2 year olds over 17 and 18 inches and slender horns -although nice tine length. Its different, in varying degrees, IMHO wherever ya go.
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Esox_Hunter
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 13:08:30
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I disagree. Genetics are overrated unless you are after B&C class bucks. Age is the biggest limiting factor when it comes to antler size and here in PA, roughly half of the bucks we kill are 1.5 YO. Yet, many of people still continue to assess the effectiveness of AR and antler size in general based on these young bucks. Virtually any mature buck (3.5+ YO) killed in this state will sport a very respectable rack. As of a few years back, PA ranked 9th I believe in P&Y entries per square mile. Just something else for everyone to consider.
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S-10
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 13:21:26
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The summary of Texas parks and wildlife antler study supported by the Pittman Robertson fund. Summary of ResultsThere are 3 equally important factors that control antler development in white-tailed deer: nutrition, genetics, and age. Antler development is genetically based, environmentally influenced, and reaches its peak at maturity. The key to quality deer management is to remove those bucks which have the least desirable antler characteristics at an early age. Kerr WMA studies show that yearling antlers predict a buck's antler quality at maturity. Kerr genetic studies indicate bucks with the best antlers will produce more progeny with exceptional antlers than will poorer bucks. The does influence antler production as well. Harvest of older does is important to insure younger does are products of better bucks. Habitat should be managed so that deer can achieve their greatest antler potential. There are no methods to "jump-start" a quality deer program. Top
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anzomcik
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 13:51:56
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I think what Esox is saying was that of coarse genetics play a part, but it isnt the end all limiting factor to a respectable PA buck. His statement said genetics play a big part in growing B&C bucks, not every buck can grow to be B&C, not every bass will make 5lbs, not every musky can grow to 50". I think it would be awesome to shoot a 120" 6 point, or a spike with heavy 12" tines. I shot a 120" 8 point this year, thats the biggest PA buck my side of the family (going back 3 generations) has ever shot. We are excited, that buck wont make P&Y we are still excited. How many people watch tv show that have "Cull" bucks they shoot, they are like 120-130" bucks (some of them) those are great deer, with poor genetics. I think i explained what he ment
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Esox_Hunter
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 14:14:35
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I think it's important to define what constitutes "desirable" antlers to you. As I mentioned before, if you are after record book books, genetics are certainly important and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. If you are talking about "big" or "respectable" racks meaning P&Y class to me, genetics don't play near as big a part, and many mature bucks will grow that type of rack here in PA regardless of their genetic makeup. I think it is well understood that PA will never be a big producer of record book bucks (B&C) and that may be in part due to genetics, but based on current data it is clear that we can now compete with other states in terms of "big" (P&Y) bucks. I don't know about you, but I don't know many hunters who are disappointed with a P&Y caliber buck. While it's not exact, but I've seen research that states that a 1.5 YO buck will have only reached ~25% of his maximum antler growth potential, and at 2.5 YO it jumps to about 60%. I recall seeing that ~80% of the bucks we kill in PA today are younger than 2.5 YO, which makes it fairly easy to conclude that we still kill a lot of bucks that haven't even come close to realizing their potential.
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Esox_Hunter
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 14:15:42
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Thanks Anzomcik, I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say.
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r3g3
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 15:50:53
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Agree with all of the above on genetics- Yes, genetically different -but not necessarily inferior by most standards- are fine deer for many folks. My point was that they certainly can be different in different places- not that they arent shooters. That said, one hunters shooter can be anothers pass. Its good to know what your hunting area is able to produce and not be wasting time based on your personal expectations. Waited and passed for a few seasons in the Cats before deciding to take some meat-then found the 3 1/2 year old spike. Might well have been that some of the bucks passed on some seasons hunting there were the best the area could have produced and I didn't know it. Back in the days of old out around Sugar Grove PA there were lots of great horns and many doe. Recall some of us going to see a 12 point a guy had shot over by Lottsville. Most would call it a fork with lots of little half inch long stubs here and there- expectations, that guy was proud as a Peacock. Whatever rings your bells.
post edited by r3g3 - 2015/12/03 15:59:18
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 19:02:33
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As I recall, the reason for AR was to allow a buck to get to be 2 years old or older as we (the hunters) were shooting the majority of 1.5 to 2 year old deer preventing, the deer from reaching maturity. We were told the older deer would in fact produce larger "racks" and be heavier bodied. During the "smoke and mirror" sessions one could see, both excitement and, disappointment among the hunters. Those wishing to kill for antler size and "record book" recognition were salivating (as in drooling) while visions of "record book" bucks, danced in their heads. Those wanting to kill for the meat, were shaking their heads in disgust as they constantly heard "meat hunters" could kill the doe. The real winner's, the "kill for thrill" dudes were wringing their hands in delight when, they learned of the PGC's plan of doe reduction. Every time the speaker mentioned less does means less chance for "smaller bucks passing on their inferior genes", heavy breathing could be heard. Least not forget, the nutrition factor, we had to understand that deer would starve to death because some areas couldn't provide enough food, especially during the winter. The "record book" racks were just as much a reality before AR as they are now except hunters may have had to travel to other parts of the state like, (what is now) WMU 2G, 2C, 4A or 4B. Before AR it wasn't uncommon to see 6 to 10 point bucks being taken in most areas of PA. and it didn't matter if the 6 point scored "180" and the 10 point scored "100", the ten point commanded the bragging rights and, few if any true hunters, gave a rats azz about Pope & Young or Boone & Crockett. It didn't matter how many points your buck had because, in the minds of those hunters, we were proud to have bagged a buck. The nice thing about hunting today, those same proud hunters still exist and, we're still disgusted with the results of the "smoke & mirrors. S10 thanks for taking the time to post the "Summary Results", it brought back memories of what I was taught by the PGC, back in the early sixties. Disclaimer: These comments are the sole opinion of a proud PA. hunter having no record, in any books.
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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S-10
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 19:20:49
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Genetcs ex.----- poor= yearling spike, three or four point with 5' spread good= yearling eight point with 12" spread great= pen raised yearling with perfect breeding, feed and living conditions 14 point gross 170+ BC. Many states have studies showing a gradual decrease in antler mass when you shoot the eights and leave the small ones to breed. As for the PGC claims of greater bucks I have over 35 sets of PA eights and up I've taken from 1964 to the present and with the exception of perhaps 2 I defy anyone to tell me which are which. As for more p/y bucks, that is happening at the expense of the rifle hunters. With the new compounds and now crossbows we are killing more than a third of the bucks in archery season and many hold out for the better ones in their area including me.
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anzomcik
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 19:34:34
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I remember when my dad shot a 6 point when I was a little boy. We had neighbors coming to see buck. It was a big deal. I remember playing with the rack think how big it was. I still have it. It isn't all that big but at that time It was huge. I hope some day my daughter or son can get a shot at one like that in 10-11 years from now. It's all relative.
So much has changed. Internet, Facebook, texting ,trail cams ,food plots ,tv channels, big box stores, optics, scent control, an aging hunting population. Things are always changing and old memories will alway be there.
A side note. I am taking a friend hunting Saturday. He has never gone before. I hope to show him a legal buck and hopes he makes a clean kill. He is in his upper 20's. I am excited to introduce him to hunting. It's never to late
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 19:48:04
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Anzomcik, did ya by chance have to wait til you were twelve years old to hunt? Good luck Sat. it'll be nice to see your buddy take a buck and even nicer to know he learned it's about the hunt and not necessarily the kill. By the way, I think it only fair he know, in advance, a miss could cost him a shirttail!! Yes, I too am missing (just) a few, shirttails (lol)
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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Esox_Hunter
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 20:11:01
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S-10 Genetcs ex.----- poor= yearling spike, three or four point with 5' spread good= yearling eight point with 12" spread
A bucks first set of antlers is a very poor indication of their antler potential. There has been a lot of research on the once a spike always a spike myth to confirm this. Further, your position assumes that growth is linear and it is quite simply is not. I frequently see spikes and tiny forkhorns in the areas I hunt. That has been typical since well before AR. Yet, miraculously the area I hunt is well known for putting out some of the biggest bucks in the state year after year. Two good friends of mine went on a guided whitetail hunt in Kansas this year. They saw lots of spikes and wee little 3, 4, or 5 points and both commented about how the 1.5 YO bucks looked just the same as they do in PA. This is on a property where B&C caliber bucks are killed somewhat regularly and 200" bucks have been killed nearby. And virtually any 3.5 YO buck (assuming its not busted up) will meet the outfitter minimum of 135" gross. How can this be if they have so many genetically inferior bucks around?
post edited by Esox_Hunter - 2015/12/03 20:12:20
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S-10
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 21:04:33
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The summary of Texas parks and wildlife antler study supported by the Pittman Robertson fund. Summary of ResultsThere are 3 equally important factors that control antler development in white-tailed deer: nutrition, genetics, and age. Antler development is genetically based, environmentally influenced, and reaches its peak at maturity. The key to quality deer management is to remove those bucks which have the least desirable antler characteristics at an early age. Kerr WMA studies show that yearling antlers predict a buck's antler quality at maturity. Kerr genetic studies indicate bucks with the best antlers will produce more progeny with exceptional antlers than will poorer bucks. The does influence antler production as well. Harvest of older does is important to insure younger does are products of better bucks. Habitat should be managed so that deer can achieve their greatest antler potential. There are no methods to "jump-start" a quality deer program. Top They simply have a higher average of superior bucks than we do. I still have a lot of scrubs where I hunt. I also saw a half dozen junk 2-1/2 yo or older bucks this year.
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anzomcik
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 21:14:50
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BTDT
Yes I had to wait till I was 12. I sat in a tree once with my dad when I was maybe 8. It was archery. He had a recurve and I remember 3 deer came in. He shot at them missed like 4 times ran out of arrows. It was simpler then. We did not prep in sent lock or wash down. I was a boy who wanted to go with dad. I can't remember if he practiced much but the end result was I had a story of hunting with dad.
I hope my friend can have a story to. I put off his hunt for Saturday because I have a die tag. So now even if buck doesn't show I can still show him what to do and take a doe with him there. But my luck is I shoot 4 times and run out of bullets. It will be fun
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/03 21:38:28
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That is a great story anzomcik. Good luck Sat. I will, as will others, look forward to hearing all about the day and hopefully see some pictures. You can be assured, deer or no deer your friend will, in years to come, remember the day he spent hunting with his buddy.
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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BloodyHand
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/04 13:38:46
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BeenThereDoneThat. Anzomcik, did ya by chance have to wait til you were twelve years old to hunt? Good luck Sat. it'll be nice to see your buddy take a buck and even nicer to know he learned it's about the hunt and not necessarily the kill. By the way, I think it only fair he know, in advance, a miss could cost him a shirttail!! Yes, I too am missing (just) a few, shirttails (lol)
In our neck of the woods, a miss means you have to eat a raisin. The raisins can be found in little piles on the deer trails. BH
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Guest
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/04 14:05:49
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Always enjoy the AR/HR discussion on here . . . for real. Fun stuff to think about and lots of viewpoints and experiences. Anyway, anybody doing any hunting this week? My son and I sat a new, green right of way edge in 2b in our pop up blind Wednesday evening and saw a grand total of 0 deer. Wasn't too surprised based on where we were, but time constraints and little brother along dictated that spot as our only real alternative. Headed back after school to where we were Monday evening on a different 2b property. Freezer's looking empty and mama said we're out of taco and chili meat, and I'm ready to smoke some meat in my smoker, so does better beware. May be able to get out for a bit Saturday morning if we don't score this evening. Anzomcik, hope your buddy scores on Saturday!
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DarDys
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/04 15:59:47
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The piece that some folks are missing in the genetics discussion is not about antler size, but rather antler defects.
From the Clearfield County spot I mentioned that I no longer frequent, our family has over 100 sets of antlers. Of those, there are four distinct gene pools. Two of those gene pools have a genetic defect for antler breakage.
With antler restrictions, those bucks will NEVER be AR legal, no matter go long they live or how well they eat (which in the mountains is not well most of the time). The antlers are not broken fighting other more dominant bucks, but rather snap when removing velvet.
So Day One of AR, about half of the buck population is out of the getting shot game, but still very much in the breeding game.
As the other two gene pools get shot off, especially the one that produces 1.5 year old sixes and eights, the population quickly shifts toward the broken antler cohort group. It is not long until they are in the majority. And do the majority of breeding, thereby passing along this defect marker.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/04 21:25:44
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BloodyHand
In our neck of the woods, a miss means you have to eat a raisin. The raisins can be found in little piles on the deer trails. BH In that case, I'd have to have some garlic along but, just a touch.
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/04 22:52:21
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Tried a new area of my little piece of Penn's Woods today with the same results as the other places, nothing. I did see signs there was, or must of been, deer in the area within the past 30 days. Wasn't a total loss, I did enjoy exploring new turf and the lay of the land was certainly fascinating, to a point. Lots of 'benches', hills and, valleys (filled with stuff you will sink, to your shins in). You know the stuff I'm talking about, when you take a step and wish you were wearing your "muck boots" instead of your ankle highs. Beside wanting to see what a deer looks like in the wilderness, I scoped the area for possible tree stand sights to use in second season archery, to which I am happy to say, found a few spots that may (with the changes in doe season) pay off in 5 years. Saw one other hunter, to whom I didn't know if I should apologize or, mother-Ph**k. While he walked directly toward my location, I was leaning against a tree watching him, as he made more noise than a Bull on crutches, trying to make his way through the woods. Less than 30 ft. from me I pushed myself away from the tree only to scare the bejesus out of this dude. When his head snapped up, I saw why he didn't know I was standing there, he had some of the thickest lenses in his glasses that I think I have ever seen. Here I am in my cute orange beanie and tailored orange jacket looking debonair leaning against a tree, with this guy coming straight at me and, 30 ft away............ HE DOESN'T SEE ME!!! In as much as I would like to tell the entire story, I think I'll just leave it right here and hope I can fall asleep tonight. But I will mention, he was hunting with a 30-06. I spent about 6 hrs still hunting and, exploring today and, truthfully have to say I enjoyed every minute of the adventure even though I will have to return to retrieve my azz which, I left dragging behind. Good luck to everyone venturing out in the morning and be safe.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2015/12/04 22:57:05
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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Big Tuna
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/05 02:04:25
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Pa.a little backwards save the inferior bucks to breed. Although I feel larger bucks breed more doe,the scubs get their share to add more junk to the gene pool. You'll hear more shooting today, it's doe week.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/05 09:14:54
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This morning ya won't have to wear "hunter orange" while seeking to 'harvest' the "Elusive White-Tailed Deer" in my little piece of "The Pennsylvania Wilds". Your gonna need a "fog horn"................ . I know ya ain't gonna believe this crap butttttttttttt, the air is frozen. I'm going fishing............. if I can find the dang boat!!!!! Be safe and good luck to those of YOU seeking.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2015/12/05 09:17:51
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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Guest
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/05 09:25:07
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BeenThereDoneThat. as he made more noise than a Bull on crutches
Never heard that metaphor before, but I'm gonna have to tuck that one away for future use. Will be sure to give you credit!
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Guest
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/05 09:33:54
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Son and I got blanked yesterday evening in 2b as well. Definitely has been heavy deer traffic there since it rained on Tuesday. Sounded a little more like gun season in 2b yesterday too. Sitting today out, unfortunately. Back at it Monday evening.
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Big Tuna
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/05 17:58:12
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The air was frozen today,never saw the long strands on ice molecules all over the trees,bushes,saplings,and weeds. My son and I hunted are two best spots,16 does. 3,5,1,6. 9 at the first spot,6 at the second. We cut them a break,there was enough banging. If every shot or volley was a kill they stacked them up today. Does being legal sure brought out the the crowd, I guess the Pa.hunters like it more than bucks only.
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anzomcik
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/05 18:51:27
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Slow day for us today. Deer were not moving to much by my stand. But I can't complain. Had my first time hunting friend out. The woods were spooky silent. I heard 132 shots by 9 am. The 133rd shot was the important one. My friend dropped the hammer and a great 9 point. It was the 4th deer we seen. 100 yard shot through a small opening in the beach brush. Deer ran 50-60 yards and piled up in full stride. The level of excitement he showed really brought a whole new level of enjoyment to this successful hunt.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015
2015/12/05 19:53:16
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First, allow me to extend a, hearty "atta boy" to my brother Rob who put jerky and baloney on his list of 'need to do' today. Anzomcik a big congratulations to you and your buddy, there's some memories. As for me..................., heh heh hehhhh................ stupid deer!
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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mopars0
Expert Angler
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015y
2015/12/05 21:20:18
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Congrats on a great looking buck .... BTDT ... I hear ya...was in my shanty at 6:30 by 10 ya could finally ( kinda) see after the heavy fog !! Stayed until 1:00 heard 3 shots ...... So called it a day.... Yep Stupid deer ...
post edited by mopars0 - 2015/12/05 22:19:06
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DarDys
Pro Angler
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Re: Gun hunting the "ELUSIVE PA. WHITE-TAILED DEER"-2015y
2015/12/07 07:22:03
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Had an interesting conversation with my local deer processor. He told me the PGC was in for a regular check and to collect heads for CWD testing.
He told the processor that they are seriously considering a deer irratication in one of the townships because the number of deer there set up the "potential" for CWD.
When asked if there were CWD positives from that township, the answer was "no," but due to the "estimated" population, there was potential.
The processor stated a PSU study (BTDT -- the deer program is run my UV PhDs) that delineated that if the three dominate strains of deer in PA, only one is susceptible to CWD and the other two are not, so would it not be prudent to just let nature take its evolutionary course and let the CWD prone group die off thereby leaving the other two that it does not affect.
The PGC guy said "no," they preferred to wipe out the entire population and start over with whatever survived.
(Note: According to Purdue University which is the leading CWD research institution, no deer have ever been found to die "OF" CWD. Plenty die with it of old age (CWD is thought to become fatal at possible ages 7-9), killed by hunters, or hit by vehicles. In other words they might die "WITH" CWD, but not because of it. )
Since this particular township is mostly controlled by two families who managed their thousands of acres for their own deer hunting (fair chase, not fenced), the processor asked how the PGC would gain access to any meaningful number of deer. The answer was "bait them off those large properties and kill them elsewhere."
The processor let both landowners know of the conversation and needless to say they were none to happy. Not happy to the point that they have already lawyered up and promise to drain the PGC of all their funds if need be fighting it in court for years. Of these families, one's business has an annual revenue of $6 billion, yes, billion with a "B," and the other is almost as loaded. So they have the financial wherewithal to take the PGC to task over this for a very long time.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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