fishergirl57
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Upper 20 mile
Hey folks, upper 20 mile is like paradise to me. Until this year we parked either at the railroad tracks and hiked down in or at the farmers property. This year we went to get our permission to fish from Ron the owner of the farm but there was a big sign out "no fishing don't ask". Dang so bummed, is there any other way in that isn't posted? Maybe the berry farm?
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bingsbaits
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/11/29 11:45:29
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No, and you can thank the f-ing slobs that didn't ask permission and screwed up their deer hunt last year.
Having it on the FISHUSA fishing reports page sure didn't help.
Bunch of mouth breathing azzholes ruined one of the last places of solitude on the tribs.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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World Famous
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/11/29 11:59:45
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Truth...WF...Lay it on them Bings.
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workcanwait....
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/11/30 00:16:58
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Fished it a few times...PARIDISE LOST!
SILLY HUMANS...
Bings your timing and wording is always right on target.
So I will shut up now nothing else to add...WCW
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wrighter00
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/11/30 14:30:46
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PA has got to be one of the most back woods bumpkin hateful places on Earth. Before I catch any slack for misunderstood opinions I would like approach free thought and open mindedness. I understand that private property is private property, but unposted property being accessed without direct permission is a non issue. Without postings why would anyone have any inclement that the land owner may have a problem with them being there. It is regrettable that a deer hunt was ruined. It is also regrettable that a great Steelhead spot was ruined. On unposted property you could expect wayward fishermen to walk into your hunting spot. Blaming the fishermen soley is a lack of responsibility if you ask me. You have to make up your mind. Either the land is open or it isn't. Either you choose to be ok with the land being open or not. Changing your mind based on one year's hunting folly seems childish/spiteful. We certainly don't have to call them slobs for a misunderstanding.
Ok, lay into to me. Really let me have it if you must. I respect private property. What I don't respect is people blaming others for the uncontrollable. I'd love to see issues resolved with some reason. Alas, I fear this thread may be closed as quickly as stream access is in Erie. :P It just always seems like there is some asinine reason justifying closing more access no matter how silly it is. Can't we just focus on stocking another fishery already? It's always something up there.
My sympathies go out to this Ron fella as well as the fishermen, but perhaps empathy is more useful in these instances.
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wrighter00
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/11/30 14:54:11
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This whole thing reminds me of small game hunting a month ago. A friend and I were small game hunting my wife's family's farm when we spooked a buck that ran off the land onto the neighboring property. Upon walking a little further up we noticed the neighbor set up in a tree stand for archery just inside his land. The look upon his face as we walked up was horror that two small game hunters just ruined his chance at the only buck around. We waved and said hello, and he did also without losing the look of horror.
By PA logic and the logic of this thread this is the perfect reason for him to be upset and start a feud between neighbors, right? :P
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bingsbaits
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/11/30 23:09:23
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There are posters there. Mabee if the scab azz bastards would quit tearing them down.
Had fellow anglers with permission ask trespassers to leave as they were on private posted property and they were told to F off.
Bunch of entitlement pieces of shi1 that think because they have bought a licence they are "Entitled".
You're entitled to a boot up your azz for thinking you own something you do not.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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Lucky13
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/01 07:42:15
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Unless property is public and posted as such, it should always be treated as private and not accessible without permission. Why should the landowner have to spend the time and money to put up the signs? In NYS, if you are found on unposted property and told to leave, you are guilty of trespass as soon as you open your mouth and say anything, and if you ever return without permission. There is no differential in taxes for properties without posters, why would you think you have some right to be on the ground?
L13
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/01 09:16:56
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Gotta weigh in on this one.........
Posted land around a beaver dam on my property this year. I had trappers think they could just set their traps where ever they pleased. My Weimaraner found one of those traps with his right pawl. No telling what damage the dog would have suffered had I not been there at the time.
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/01 09:39:48
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I'm not sticking up for people who trespass, but in this case maybe a lot of anglers thought this spot by the railroad tracks was perfectly ok to fish without permission due to the angler maps on this very site. There is still a marked foot path "broken line trail" on the Fish Erie 20 mile angler map announcing to the world that this is a spot where you can access and walk to the stream.
I know the Fish Erie 20 mile angler map is not official or legal or anything, but a lot of people, especially new anglers who are exploring and looking to get away from the masses by taking a hike, probably wouldn't look into it any further than seeing the map on here. They go to where the map shows you can walk down to the stream, don't see any posters or any other signs before this year, and they go fishing. I'm confused as to why anyone would think there would be any other outcome, considering the 20 mile angler map on this site.
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bingsbaits
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/01 10:24:41
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No Trespassing signs at the trailhead would be your first clue......
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/01 12:39:16
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True, unless there aren't any "no tresspassing" signs at the trailhead due to "scab azz bastards" tearing them down. Then how would anyone new to the tribs who has looked at the Fish Erie angler maps know?
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fishergirl57
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/01 19:57:47
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Hey guys where's the berry farm, can you get in from the New York side and hike down in? Anyone know if all the property owners posted up there or just the first grape farmer Ron? Wonder how much property he owns and does he own both sides?
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DarDys
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 08:03:32
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While I can understand the logic behind the "if there are no posters, how do you know it is posted" stance, that is not the law in PA -- right or wrong. Gone are the days of going anywhere there are no posters, whether hunting, fishing, or just walking.
The ones that get me are the people like the guy that climbed into a tree stand on my neighbors property and then was upset others were hunting "too close" to him.
First, he had to park along RT. 99 which is illegal to do; he had to climb the fence along the highway; cross into a section of woods that is posted solid (why it needs to be with the first two stipulations, I don't know); cross onto another piece of posted property; cross through it onto my neighbors posted property; and then climb into a tree stand he didn't install.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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johnthefisherman
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 08:45:30
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Unfortunately, think of it this way. If people done regularly walked through your front yard, and, when ya objected, their response was "well, you never put up a sign that says I can't," would ya be very happy?
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Troutcommander1031
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 10:14:08
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Fisher girl please don't take offense not trying to be rude but you should not have spot burned a place like that pm someone next time and yes that place was great at one time till it was posted heard they had some trouble with guys but all of the years I fished it the old man was a great guy nice as heck his son on the other hand that owns it now @ ss hole
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 10:37:52
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I wasn't saying that no visible posters alone should give people the impression they could park there and hike down to the stream in this location. Nor does anyone have to walk through anyone's front yard at this location. I was just saying that the combination of the 20 mile angler map on Fish Erie with a marked foot path down to the creek at this spot, combined with no posters (ripped down by scab azz bastards), combined with another car parked there fishing with permission. Would give 99% of people unfamiliar with the area the impression that this land is open to hike down to the water without permission. Why would anyone think otherwise when you combine all three of those circumstances together? Not every landowner who allows fishing on private land away from their house, wants the masses to come knocking at their front door believe it or not. To me this situation at this particular spot seemed inevitable. If the land owner was getting this upset over fisherman; then a way to prevent closing it all together would have been for people with permission to help him contact Fish Erie to get his land off of being marked on a map as a walk in location, and someone helping to put up a permanent metal no trespassing sign that can't be easily ripped down. If those two things were done years ago, this thread probably wouldn't exist right now. Just Sayin!
post edited by SteelSlayer77 - 2014/12/02 10:39:39
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D-nymph
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 11:00:42
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SteelSlayer77
I wasn't saying that no visible posters alone should give people the impression they could park there and hike down to the stream in this location. Nor does anyone have to walk through anyone's front yard at this location.
I was just saying that the combination of the 20 mile angler map on Fish Erie with a marked foot path down to the creek at this spot, combined with no posters (ripped down by scab azz bastards), combined with another car parked there fishing with permission. Would give 99% of people unfamiliar with the area the impression that this land is open to hike down to the water without permission. Why would anyone think otherwise when you combine all three of those circumstances together? Not every landowner who allows fishing on private land away from their house, wants the masses to come knocking at their front door believe it or not.
To me this situation at this particular spot seemed inevitable. If the land owner was getting this upset over fisherman; then a way to prevent closing it all together would have been for people with permission to help him contact Fish Erie to get his land off of being marked on a map as a walk in location, and someone helping to put up a permanent metal no trespassing sign that can't be easily ripped down. If those two things were done years ago, this thread probably wouldn't exist right now. Just Sayin!
So, it's the landowner's fault, eh?
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 11:41:35
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D-nymph
So, it's the landowner's fault, eh?
Did I say that? If anything I was implying that it's partially Fish Erie's fault for advertising this spot as a walk in location with a marked foot path to the masses, when the land owner didn't really want just anyone walking in. It's also partially the fault of the people tearing down his no-tresspassing signs.
post edited by SteelSlayer77 - 2014/12/02 11:43:06
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Ironhed
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 12:10:30
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SteelSlayer77
I wasn't saying that no visible posters alone should give people the impression they could park there and hike down to the stream in this location. Nor does anyone have to walk through anyone's front yard at this location. I was just saying that the combination of the 20 mile angler map on Fish Erie with a marked foot path down to the creek at this spot, combined with no posters (ripped down by scab azz bastards), combined with another car parked there fishing with permission. Would give 99% of people unfamiliar with the area the impression that this land is open to hike down to the water without permission. Why would anyone think otherwise when you combine all three of those circumstances together? Not every landowner who allows fishing on private land away from their house, wants the masses to come knocking at their front door believe it or not. To me this situation at this particular spot seemed inevitable. If the land owner was getting this upset over fisherman; then a way to prevent closing it all together would have been for people with permission to help him contact Fish Erie to get his land off of being marked on a map as a walk in location, and someone helping to put up a permanent metal no trespassing sign that can't be easily ripped down. If those two things were done years ago, this thread probably wouldn't exist right now. Just Sayin!
Unbelievable.^ There is NO excuse for not knowing who's land your on. Period.
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 13:03:09
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^ Unbelievable? Why doesn't Fish Erie update their 20 Mile angler map, that's advertised to the world through this site, and take the foot path line from the tracks to the creek off of this guy's private property? Get the source PDF file out, and it would take less than 10 minutes to update and overwrite on your web server. The fact that this site could care less about advertising access to private property where the land owner clearly doesn't want people fishing, is what's unbelievable to me! You think the majority of anglers driving from out of state, or anywhere out of the area, are going to think otherwise when they pull up to the spot they marked on their GPS from looking at Fish Erie angler maps, don't see any no-tresspassing signs, and possibly even see a couple other anglers parked or leaving that same location? Weather it's right or wrong, you know what the majority of anglers are going to assume and what's going to happen.
post edited by SteelSlayer77 - 2014/12/02 13:06:07
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Ironhed
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 13:10:21
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Yep.
Point fingers all you want buddy.
Like I said, there's no excuse.
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 13:29:53
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Pretty confusing to the vast majority of anglers from out of the area, when there is an area right down stream on the angler map that says "Posted" and another spot that says "No Access", but the walking path from Gulf Road by the tracks is there and has neither of those words around it. If an internet site is going to put public information out like this, then they should have some responsibility to keep it updated and accurate, or at the very least post disclaimers saying that they might not be accurate. I'll just leave this here for now: 
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pensfan1
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 13:30:36
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 Fer-ghed-abaw-dit
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D-nymph
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 13:45:11
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SteelSlayer77
D-nymph
So, it's the landowner's fault, eh?
Did I say that?
Yes, you essentially did say exactly that.
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 13:54:08
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Um, no I didn't. Maybe actually read my post, eh?
I implied in my second paragraph, which you quoted, that 99% of it was a combination of the Fish Erie angler maps, people ripping down the landowners posters, and other anglers already parked there. No where did I say it was the landowners fault. I actually recommended people with permission/access who might have known the situation was getting out of hand before the tipping point, help the land owner by someone contacting Fish Erie for him about the maps, or helping to put up a metal sign that can't be ripped down.
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bingsbaits
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 13:54:32
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Steel I do understand what you are saying about folks going in there and not knowing. I was in that boat 5 years ago when I posted some pics of that section and was called out as a trespasser. ****ed me right off as I had seen no posters the way I went in. I trespassed on Railroad property and crossed the bridge. If the railroad wanted my azz more power to them. After getting straightened out and finding out who to ask for permission all was good.. That map should be changed it can give fishermen the wrong info. I see the Snakehole is posted on there. Last fall this piece of ground was SPOT BURNED numerous times on the Fisherie reports page.. I blame that on Fisherie, they can remove a bunch of pics and posts that run off about half the regular posters on here but can't delete something that is in direct violation of the sight policy. It's all a moot point now as we will probably never get to see that chunk of water again.
post edited by bingsbaits - 2014/12/02 13:57:57
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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bingsbaits
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/02 18:46:22
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Must add though that the complete onus is on the fisherman to have permission to fish on water not designated public water.
That is law.
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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wrighter00
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/03 14:23:12
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I'm seeing a lot of mixed feelings on this. You guys are right. Private property is private. No trespassing. That's a given. That being said, what the hell is the point of posting signs ever being created if no one was going to use them? Typically it's understood by show of the signs whether someone is ok with you accessing their land or not. There really is no other system we have to go by other than "NO TRESPASSING/NO HUNTING/NO FISHING" signs. Otherwise, you're paying the state taxes to have that land just like people are paying fees to have steelhead to fish for. Either you're working with the other people of the state or not. I get that this is America, but if you want a free for all then you'll get it. The fact that there are steelhead in the stream would be my first clue that fishermen may pass through my land to get to them. Legally or not, I would expect it and prolly plan my hunting accordingly, but that's just me. I'm a bit different than a lot of PA residents.
As a state, citizens, authorities, commissioners, land owners, tourists, game wardens, hunters, fishermen, sportsman, humans you'd really think we could plan these things out better without so much turmoil... and if we can't... stop stocking the **** waters and let them go back to dead waters in the winter. If there weren't steelhead there, I doubt there would be as much reason to close the surrounding lands. In Southwest PA, you'd never know if some potential trout waters could ever hold fish because you could never access them thanks to private property. That's nice. Keep your dead creek all to yourself...
That is a good point on the map from this site. Sorry, Ironhead. I run into college kids up there all the time. Some who came from mid state. If you think you're going to convince them or anyone not to go to the fish, you got another thing comin. That's what they bought their Erie stamp for. To explore and fish Lake Erie tribs. What happens when they get there and there is no where to explore or any way to get to the fish? Pile up at the few state operated spots? Again, you got another thing coming.
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wrighter00
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Re: Upper 20 mile
2014/12/03 19:06:02
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Property rights are built on good ol' American principle. Try to remember that before any of us white men came here no one owned the land or water... and all the native wild/fish life in these waters and on this land still thrived. Now that is not the case. I'm not sure if respecting someone's land is really an issue, yknow?
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