Helpful ReplyLawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable" 
Ninja of the Steel
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 03:20:57
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I think "navigable" water ways in Erie is an excellent idea with benefits that far out weigh the cons. I'm not going to play lawmaker and write a declaration on how it needs to be done here but I will say having the attention of a Representative is a good start. I urge any sportsmen/women who enjoys Erie steelhead fishing to contact the Reps, write letters and get in their ear about it. We as Sportsmen have a stronger lobby then one may think. Instead of posting complaints and put downs about "the guy who posted a pic of 3 fish on a stringer", we need to be proactive in protecting and enriching the sport.
"The images of himself and his line kept disappearing into the rising vapors of the river, which continually circles to the tops of the cliffs where, after becoming a wreath in the wind, they became rays of the sun."
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flyway
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 08:29:56
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I think its best to leave the Erie Tribs alone. Following the model established by the Little J ruling, I would think the Erie tribs are not currently, and historically have never been navigable.
Theres plenty of landowners who did not ask the fish commission to stock giant non native trout in their yard, and have had to deal with a lot of people littering, cursing and a host of other issues on property they pay taxes on.
I would bet a lot of people calling for the tribs to be opened up, would quickly post their own stretch of private water if the opportunity presented itself. Maybe not, just my opinion.
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DarDys
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 08:55:57
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Cold
That's all a red herring argument and you know it. You're using an inaccurate counter-argument to muddy the issue and distract attention from the main issue. If you really want to get technical, though, the fish aren't trespassing, because they're not setting foot on the streambed. As far as the game animals, if they're stocked, then I'd say the same goes for them as well. And the issue of leasing their farm to hunters would be equally applicable if it were stocked with PGC pheasants. What if a landowner has nesting bald eagles? Should they be allowed to dust them with a 12ga.? Don't tell private property owners what they can and cannot do with their land, right?
Not as much a red herring argument as using a protected species. But just as deer can and are killed for damage they do to private property, why not the trespassing steelhead? They dig reds and they eat the aquatic bugs -- LOL. And just because you are not exposed to it, don't think for one second that there are not properties next to SGL that get pheasant stockings that are not posted and leased for hunting because there are many. Technically most would presume for deer hunting, but when they have buckwheat and switch grass , etc. they draw the license holder paid for pheasants. What is to be done about that? How about get over it. Private property rights vs. some stupid fish in only some locations made an even smaller ratio when the posted and leased for fishing view is used when compared to the posted just stay out portion. I am probably about to purchase a piece of ground that has about 600 yards of stocked trout stream on it. Guess what, it is getting posted. Not for me to have a private spot to fish, but to make sure my dogs don't get stray hooks in their feet when they are on my ground. I recall when there was a movement to open Fisherman's Paradise to bait fishing. The fly argument was it is 0.6 miles out of 6000 miles of open trout water. The bait stance was we bought a license and we want it all.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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trout man
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 11:35:19
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Good points DarDys. Yes they paid for their license. Yes a portion goes to trout/steelhead stockings. I even see the deer hunting view. But when you post your land, and offer access to a paying customer, that changes things. If you don't want people on your property, ok post it. I understand that. But its not right to make people pay for public resources. Resource that I helped pay for. How much property posted isn't relevant to profiting from what's deemed public.
Tight Lines
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Lucky13
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 13:29:18
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Maybe a look at the zoning would apply. If the land is zoned residential, and it becomes Pay to Play, doesn't that make it commercial use? Charge a higher tax rate for the commercial use, and there is a disincentive to go that route. Post it for the personal use of the landowner, fine, but as soon as money changes hands, it is no longer personal use.
Jes sayin.....
L13
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Cold
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 14:45:21
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DarDys
Cold
That's all a red herring argument and you know it. You're using an inaccurate counter-argument to muddy the issue and distract attention from the main issue. If you really want to get technical, though, the fish aren't trespassing, because they're not setting foot on the streambed. As far as the game animals, if they're stocked, then I'd say the same goes for them as well. And the issue of leasing their farm to hunters would be equally applicable if it were stocked with PGC pheasants. What if a landowner has nesting bald eagles? Should they be allowed to dust them with a 12ga.? Don't tell private property owners what they can and cannot do with their land, right?
Not as much a red herring argument as using a protected species. But just as deer can and are killed for damage they do to private property, why not the trespassing steelhead? They dig reds and they eat the aquatic bugs -- LOL.
And just because you are not exposed to it, don't think for one second that there are not properties next to SGL that get pheasant stockings that are not posted and leased for hunting because there are many. Technically most would presume for deer hunting, but when they have buckwheat and switch grass , etc. they draw the license holder paid for pheasants.
What is to be done about that? How about get over it. Private property rights vs. some stupid fish in only some locations made an even smaller ratio when the posted and leased for fishing view is used when compared to the posted just stay out portion.
I am probably about to purchase a piece of ground that has about 600 yards of stocked trout stream on it. Guess what, it is getting posted. Not for me to have a private spot to fish, but to make sure my dogs don't get stray hooks in their feet when they are on my ground.
I recall when there was a movement to open Fisherman's Paradise to bait fishing. The fly argument was it is 0.6 miles out of 6000 miles of open trout water. The bait stance was we bought a license and we want it all.
I don't know what's so difficult to understand about the profit being the key difference, but you're typically not one to let facts get in the way of dogma or personal agenda.
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DarDys
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 15:37:52
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True. I don't. So what percentage of fishable trib water is posted? And as a subset of all the fishable trib water, how much of it is posted and is being leased on a pay to fish basis? I really have no idea. Taking a SWAG I would think less than 10%, probably less than 5%. Maybe as little as1%.
post edited by DarDys - 2014/03/23 15:44:39
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Cold
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/23 16:06:59
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True. I don't. There ya go. I'm done with you.
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DarDys
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 11:05:06
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Cold
While I personally would benefit from this, morally, politically, ethically, I hope it doesn't.
Funny thing is I was agreeing with you. I just fleshed out why I thought it was morally; politically; well, not ethically; wrong.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Porktown
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 12:18:32
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I'm on the side with Cold & DarDys, if they are on the same side... Also 100% on the side of the folks stating that efforts should be focused more on easements. Probably not a bad idea to think about 5-10-20 year agreements, rather than their all or nothing approach. Make it worth while too. I could be on the side of "land owner profiting" if it came to public access.
I too would be against a full navigational blanket legislation, although would benefit from it like most of us. Many owned the property before the steelhead circus, and don't want anything to do with it. I don't blame them for posting at all. Even those that bought knowing it is steelhead filled, for their own stretch of private access, I don't blame them for posting as well. I do feel that profiting from the state provided recreational resource is wrong. Doing a blanket legislation to "punish" the low percentage that is profiting, while punishing all stream side land owners is absurd. For those that own the property and post it, I see nothing wrong with them fishing or letting others fish by permission, as long as they aren't charging or making a profit from it.
I used to be in favor of the "all posted should be nursery waters" and even the navigable waters argument, until I have heard some of the horror stories of slob circus headers. That 5% or so of the crowd has always been there, but the crowds have grown, so too the amount of slobs. There are some really nice folks that let their property be used for years, then have 1-2 groups of slobs out of thousands of upstanding anglers, ruins it for everyone. Should that nice person that has been a friend to anglers for years, be subjected to the same "punishment" of land they own as others that never wanted anyone fishing their property for whatever reason? Others paid top dollar for their own private paradise, and property value would plummet if this were now nursery water, whether they currently fish it or not.
If someone parked in my driveway, blocking me from leaving my house, then going bathroom in my back yard, dumping their trash on my lawn, peaking in my windows and being loud from sun up until sun down, Id be pretty upset. Then the state telling me that I couldn't use part of my lawn, unless I let others do the same, Id be irate.
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 13:54:31
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Porktown
If someone parked in my driveway, blocking me from leaving my house, then going bathroom in my back yard, dumping their trash on my lawn, peaking in my windows and being loud from sun up until sun down, Id be pretty upset. Then the state telling me that I couldn't use part of my lawn, unless I let others do the same, Id be irate.
How many land owners are there who actually deal with this on a regular basis in Erie? I'm willing to bet it's only a handful of people who mostly have property near major public access areas on Elk and 20 Mile. You make it sound like every land owner along every trib in Erie deals with it, but that's hardly the case. In my years of fishing Elk creek and other Erie Tribs, I've literally never seen anyone taking a dump along the creek ever. Not saying it doesn't happen, just not nearly as often as Pork makes it sound. There are really only a handful of properties like this. What percentage of Elk & 20 Mile Creeks even have a home within sight of the creek or a yard that actually goes right up to the creek? I do feel bad for those few landowners who do put up with it and think more should be done to help them out. However this is no different than having a public road going through the middle of your property in my opinion, and the commonwealth does already own the water itself. We shouldn't infringe on the rights of millions of citizens who already own the water, to protect the rights of a handful of people. Are you guys who are opposed to this legislation, in favor of making new laws that say no new roads can ever be built or go through anyone's private property in the future? Are you the same people who come out on dirt township roads and try to act like you own the road and say it's a private road to try and stop people from using it? Anyone who supports legislation to make the Erie Tribs navigable; Take a few minutes to write your local representative and let them know. If you're unsure of who to contact, just use this page right here, you can enter your address or select your county: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/findyourlegislator/ Then after you know who to contact you can email them through this page: http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/contact.cfm?body=H
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Porktown
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 14:14:33
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I don't think that my response inferred that the worst behavior happens often. In fact, I even said 1-2 groups of slobs out of thousands of upstanding anglers. That said, it only takes one time, then all of the "minor offenses" are enough to disturb someone. For instance Ed mentioning the dobermen's on the other thread. I would be shocked if this was the guy's first reaction to someone tresspassing. He likely was fed up with slobs, now deals with anyone that tresspasses the same way. He could be a complete jerk, but also could be a great guy that is just fed up. You've been to the circus, you know what it is like. It isn't what most want in their back yard, regardless if it is 20' away or 1/4 mile from their house. The Erie Circus is not your average trout stream. It is about 5 months of Opening Days.
Transportation and recreation are completely different, so comparing to roads is completely off base. This is not infringing any rights of millions of citizens. I hate to sound like a conservative talking head moron, but millions of citizens are not entitled to fish waters on private property. Can I sit on your roof when it is raining, because the state owns the rain water? Of course I can't, it is your roof and your property.
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Accountant
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 14:32:18
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Porktown
I'm on the side with Cold & DarDys, if they are on the same side... Also 100% on the side of the folks stating that efforts should be focused more on easements. Probably not a bad idea to think about 5-10-20 year agreements, rather than their all or nothing approach. Make it worth while too. I could be on the side of "land owner profiting" if it came to public access.
It's not a bad idea. But what would be the difference from giving a 5 year easement on the land compared to a 5 year lease to Beaver? I'm guessing the beaver would pay more, and in all liklihood there would be less yahoos on the land.
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Porktown
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 15:12:44
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Besides the public access vs. private club?
My thoughts on the all or nothing approach by the state, are that it could give land owners that are undecided a chance to test the waters. If you aren't 100%, you're not going to sign anything, and it remains posted, but might sign for 5 years. After 5 years and no issues, maybe they renew or go all in. If not, you at least get 5 years of open waters.
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Cold
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 15:22:40
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DarDys
Cold
While I personally would benefit from this, morally, politically, ethically, I hope it doesn't.
Funny thing is I was agreeing with you. I just fleshed out why I thought it was morally; politically; well, not ethically; wrong.
All except the part where you're still confusing two separate, but related issues. 
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D-nymph
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 16:33:33
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Porktown, you can sit on my roof when it's raining. I'll even take your photo & you can use it for an avatar.
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Cold
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/25 19:06:11
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D-nymph
Porktown, you can sit on my roof when it's raining. I'll even take your photo & you can use it for an avatar.
Whether the first part happens or not...the second part definitely should.
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DarDys
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/26 07:26:11
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SteelSlayer77
How many land owners are there who actually deal with this on a regular basis in Erie?
While it may not seem like many, you would probably be shocked at th number. We are currently looking at a piece of property, not anywhere near Erie, that has two large lots. In an effort to separate the two, the builder put in a shale road. One one end it terminates in the development, which is a has a private road (not turned over to the township) and on the other it terminates 50 yards from a stocked trout stream, although they don't actually stock that section, but rather stop stocking a 1/2 mile upstream. While walking the gorund looking how to layout the driveway and house at least 5 different ATV's used the shale road and the private development road. Most came out of the woods to the bottom termination of the road, which meant they had to ride in the trout stream for at least 1/4 mile or more because of terrain and ride at least another 1/4 mile on someone's provate ground -- the ground on both sides of the stream is owned by one party or another. Why? Because they can and no one to date has stopped them. My neighbor farmer has had people in his tree stand during deer season. The only access to it, other than driving down his lane, whihc they did not do, it to park along I-99, which is illegal to start with, jump the highway barrier fence (actually it was cut, but it is unknown by whom), cross a piece of clearly posted property onto another piece of private ground, and then cross part of the neiighbor's ground to get to the tree stand. Why? Because they can. About once per week until recently, while running the dogs on the neighbor farmer's ground, I would encounter unknown people on his ground. Some were helping themselves to corn, peppers, tomatos, etc. in season, others, who knows what they were doing. To try to quell that tise, he chained off his access road. Now it only happens about once per month. They come in by removing traffic cones at an access road to a flea market, then drive across a field to owned by someone else to get to his property. Some don't stope there and ford the trout stream with their vehicles to get to the crops on the other side. Soem even ford it again to get to another field. One night he had four acres of corn picked clean. They all run when they see you, so identifying the vehicles is difficult. Very few have been caught. None of these folks are invited -- the AVT's the can pickers, the crop thieves, yet they go to extraordinary steps to do it. What happens along a trib where folks are invited, even if that supposed invitation is only indicated (and may not be true) by the absence of No Tresspassing signs?
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Accountant
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/26 10:07:57
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Porktown
Besides the public access vs. private club?
My thoughts on the all or nothing approach by the state, are that it could give land owners that are undecided a chance to test the waters. If you aren't 100%, you're not going to sign anything, and it remains posted, but might sign for 5 years. After 5 years and no issues, maybe they renew or go all in. If not, you at least get 5 years of open waters.
You make a good point, but I'm looking at it from a landowners standpoint. Lets say you are a landowner and have the option of signing a 5 year lease with donny beaver or 5 year lease with the PA Fish and Boat commision. I'd imagine that beaver would be willing to pay more for access, and you also have the likely benefit that the people who pay beaver to fish will be less uncouth than the average mouth breather on the tribs. I dont know what private clubs pay for lease access or how many years those lease agreements last, but i find it tough to believe that the FBC compete with private clubs in terms of appealing to landowners
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fishingood
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/26 11:12:13
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DarDys
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/26 15:13:20
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Accountant
Porktown
Besides the public access vs. private club?
My thoughts on the all or nothing approach by the state, are that it could give land owners that are undecided a chance to test the waters. If you aren't 100%, you're not going to sign anything, and it remains posted, but might sign for 5 years. After 5 years and no issues, maybe they renew or go all in. If not, you at least get 5 years of open waters.
You make a good point, but I'm looking at it from a landowners standpoint. Lets say you are a landowner and have the option of signing a 5 year lease with donny beaver or 5 year lease with the PA Fish and Boat commision. I'd imagine that beaver would be willing to pay more for access, and you also have the likely benefit that the people who pay beaver to fish will be less uncouth than the average mouth breather on the tribs.
I dont know what private clubs pay for lease access or how many years those lease agreements last, but i find it tough to believe that the FBC compete with private clubs in terms of appealing to landowners
You are probably right about a private club offering more. That is if a private club needs more water. Knowing a guide that is employed by one of these clubs, you would be surprised how little some of the water actually gets fished. To help my friend out with a photo shoot, we fished a 3-mile piece of club owned water (not in Erie). The club representative told us that that stretch of water had been fished six times the previous calendar year. So it is not like these clubs are out of capacity beat-wise and need and ever increasing amount of water. In other words, a lower, but reasonable offer from the PFBC, for a time period shorter than"forever, including after you sell the property" may be the best offer the landowner gets.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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chrisrowboat
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/26 18:08:46
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The best value for selling an easement and often overlooked is the policing by the PAFB WCO and DWOC. PAFB will prosecute people for violations to the state code. Littering, loitering and trespassing, etc..into perpetuity one hell of a value. Much better than the State Police because the fisherman and commission has a stake in the property.
It will not be taking because the state always owned the stream bottom the taking was done by the property owner.
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chrisrowboat
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/26 18:15:53
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Blast from the past:
"THE HAPPIEST OF PEOPLE DON'T NECCESSARILY HAVE THE BEST OF EVERYTHING, THEY JUST MAKE THE MOST OF EVERYTHIG THAT COMES ALONG THEIR WAY" "OPEN WATERS FOR ALL" down with leased waters and shame on those that seek to "EXPLOIT" the resource *>*)))))>< "T" "
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Fish5000
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/26 20:31:24
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[ Edited quote from bingsbaits]
Don't like the end around on this...They will drop the idea when see the can of worms this would open.
Exactly what I was thinking.... opening up a can of worms.
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Loomis
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/27 09:04:33
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Open it all up it's time to rope. If you don't like it you can GIDDDDDDOUT
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Porktown
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/27 10:12:11
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D-nymph
Porktown, you can sit on my roof when it's raining. I'll even take your photo & you can use it for an avatar.
Me slipping off in motion would make a killer avatar...
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Porktown
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/27 10:19:53
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Accountant
[You make a good point, but I'm looking at it from a landowners standpoint. Lets say you are a landowner and have the option of signing a 5 year lease with donny beaver or 5 year lease with the PA Fish and Boat commision. I'd imagine that beaver would be willing to pay more for access, and you also have the likely benefit that the people who pay beaver to fish will be less uncouth than the average mouth breather on the tribs.
I dont know what private clubs pay for lease access or how many years those lease agreements last, but i find it tough to believe that the FBC compete with private clubs in terms of appealing to landowners
If I were a landowner, I'd post and fish myself and friends. Might even allow a few of you knuckleheads to fish it. If I were looking for some sort of profit on the land, under current law, I would probably go the Beaver route. (I enjoy going the Beaver route.) Although morally, I don't agree with the current law, allowing private clubs on state stocked waters. If the water was far from the house, I'd consider opening under short term agreements.
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KJH807
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/27 10:33:38
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lots of "private club" talk
What about guides/outfitters with exclusive access
I think that is way more prevalent in Erie
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Cold
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/27 10:37:09
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KJH807
lots of "private club" talk
What about guides/outfitters with exclusive access
I think that is way more prevalent in Erie
Agreed. That was why I was trying to keep my posts more in terms of "for profit" language than "club". May not have made it as clear as I'd hoped, though.
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D-nymph
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Re: Lawmakers looking at making Erie tribs "Navigable"
2014/03/27 10:41:03
(permalink)
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