Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal

Author
TheBlueLagoon
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 802
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2012/04/12 08:34:29
  • Location: Westmoreland County
  • Status: offline
2014/03/19 07:48:38 (permalink)

Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal

Yikes, Range Resources wants to drill at Deer Lakes now. Here is the link to a KDKA article I came across this morning.
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2014/03/18/county-council-gets-look-at-proposal-to-drill-in-deer-lakes-park/
 

Got Walleye???
#1

13 Replies Related Threads

    Porktown
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 9945
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/09/04 16:37:05
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 08:31:10 (permalink)
    So, the county gets $7.7M if they drill the area.  Or $0, if they drill the area anyway?  Great political spin by Fitzgerald.  I can only assume that the $7.7M is for the mineral rights under the park, which if they don't agree to, then RR cannot drill the angle they would like under the park.  Very likely giving up any legal ground if the lakes turn toxic as well.  Is it worth giving up the lakes for new swing sets, pavillions and asphault?  There are countless parks around without lakes, I think the county has 2 with lakes.  I would have a hard time beleiving that money stays in that park or even the county park system.  The real question is, will we need salt water licenses in 20 years, when all of the water in western PA is gas drilling runoff?
    #2
    Esox_Hunter
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2393
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/02 14:32:57
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 09:05:33 (permalink)
    For clarification, the proposed pad is located on adjacent private property, not on county property.  This being the case, the actual well pad will very likely be in excess of 1/2 mile from the lakes considering the boundaries of the park.
     
    A temporary increase in truck traffic will be the biggest nuisance for park-goers that will result from development of this well.  If you're into the fear mongering and sensationalizing thing and that is what you want to believe, have at it.   
     
       
    #3
    bingsbaits
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5035
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 09:18:51 (permalink)
    Have any of you ever seen a deep well drill pad ??
    Was working beside one for a few months and got to watch it daily....
     
    Never saw such an operation before. Was quite impressed.
     
    With the environmental controls on the well pad and the way it was contructed there is not a drop of oil, frack water, fuel or any other contaminants getting to the soil from the pad.
    The Deep Wells are probably some of the safest operations out there.
    Hell my skidder leaks more oil than they let hit the ground.. 

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #4
    fisherofmen376
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2217
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 09:49:51 (permalink)
    But bings, we are ruining our environment, and your farts are the primary culprit.  Quit emitting and stop leaking!!!!!!

    "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
    Matthew 4:19
    #5
    wilbur_83
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 402
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2004/03/02 13:05:20
    • Location: Beaver Co.
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 12:23:38 (permalink)
     - right bings -
     
    and what about the TONS of salt that was dumped on the roads this winter? - WHO KNOWS whats in that...an is left to directly leach into the groundwater and streams with NO regulation
    #6
    Porktown
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 9945
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/09/04 16:37:05
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 14:46:52 (permalink)
    When they pump millions of gallons of their brine into the ground (granted most is water), how much of that is;
    a) being recovered
    b) staying within their encasement
    c) being disposed of properly
    d) what happens to abandoned coal mines that they are passing through, that are filled with other hazardous waters
     
    Why would Range Resources be giving $7.7M to the county, if this is not interfering with the park.  $7.7M because there are more trucks on the road?
     
    1/2 mile away is nothing, when you are talking of how water travels.  But, since it doesn't fit in with your view of making money from the process, yep, fear mongering...
    #7
    bingsbaits
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5035
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 15:34:45 (permalink)
    Don't blame the drill companies for the brine on the road.
    You better talk to your state officials and Township supervisers for okaying it and asking for it..
     
     
    I didn't address the underground potential problems as I do not know all the science involved...
     
    7.7 million for the gas rights isn't that much.. The neighbor was offered half a million to put one on his property. He's holding out for $750K.
     
    Don't get me wrong there are hazards in drilling, comes with the territory..But I think many blow those way out of proportion..
    Just like the gas in the water in the Frack Nation movie...What's the big deal we have had gas in our water since 1962. They never drilled and fracked this area till 1975.
     
    And yes there are shady businesses that cut corners and will cause some damage to the environment. They should get hammered when caught.
    But you will get that in every industry....
     
     
     
     
     

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #8
    Porktown
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 9945
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/09/04 16:37:05
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 16:05:40 (permalink)
    I agree that many are blowing some of the hazards out of proportion.  The fact that 90% of any research that you try to do, is focused on the negative, I can see why many would be alarmed though.  My main objection to this, is location.  We all know there are risks, why put those risks anywhere close to where a public water source is, drinking or recreational?  Obviously my first response was a bit tongue in cheek, but more of a shot at the politician for only representing part of the story with the "they are drilling regardless".
     
    If doing a horizontal well, they reach out 8,000-10,000 feet in each direction after drilling deep down.  The pad is 1/2 mile from the park.  1 mile = 5280 ft.  So, without seeing the contract, I am guessing they plan to drill under park property, and definitely capable of it.
     
    60-90% of water pumped into a well is not recovered.  Water does not stay in place over time, and eventually makes its way to the surface.  Without knowing what is in the brine, noone can positively test that the layers of soil will filter them out of the water.  Another of my and many other's contentions with the industry, conveniently leaving fracking (with Haliburton being the inventor of the process in the 1940s) out of the clean water bill, signed during the Bush administration.  Our governor seems to be in the same crowd.
     
    If there is any abandoned coal mines in the area, drilling is an additional concern.  Not only the posibility of introducing the toxins from these mines into the waterway, but excellerating mine subsidence.  If water is added to a well, strong enough to crack acres of shale deposits, it is going to move the surrounding earth as well.  Mine subsidence is a big enough problem in the area as is.  Good luck proving that the well 2 miles away caused it (although horizontal well and pumping could be directly under).
     
    I'm not going to toot the green house gas horn.  Yeah, I don't like large amounts of methane being released, but if that was the only issue, drill away today and always.
     
    There is no doubt if they allowed the EPA to do a full study (Obama in the way of that), and safety regulations, including naming the chemicals, within 5 years, there would be a 10 times more safe approach.  Likely causing the price of natural gas to go up 1%.  But that 1% is profits that are worth $B to fight.
    post edited by Porktown - 2014/03/19 16:09:55
    #9
    Esox_Hunter
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2393
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/02 14:32:57
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 16:35:02 (permalink)
    Porktown
    When they pump millions of gallons of their brine into the ground (granted most is water), how much of that is;
    a) being recovered
    b) staying within their encasement
    c) being disposed of properly
    d) what happens to abandoned coal mines that they are passing through, that are filled with other hazardous waters
     
    Why would Range Resources be giving $7.7M to the county, if this is not interfering with the park.  $7.7M because there are more trucks on the road?
     
    1/2 mile away is nothing, when you are talking of how water travels.  But, since it doesn't fit in with your view of making money from the process, yep, fear mongering...




    a) Anywhere between 15-40% of the frac water sent downhole is recovered as either flowback water or produced fluids.
    b) Some incidental water will be recovered during the production phase of a well.  Whatever water they recover during production goes to a condensate tank and is managed accordingly.  I'm not sure what your point is with this one.  Casings can extend 5,000-9,000' below ground level, regional groundwater levels are typically less than 100' below ground level.
    c) The vast majority of water recovered during fracking is sent for processing and recycled for future fracking at the moment.  When the water can no longer meeting the companies reuse standards it is disposed of in a deep injection well, typically in Ohio.  Solids generated during processing for recycling are landfilled.  Drill cuttings recovered are primarily landfilled.
    d)  DEP will not issue a well permit if the well conflicts with a coal mine or will cause environmental damage.  It is very rare that a well will penetrate an abandoned mine and it is avoided at all costs.  Regardless, wells are constructed with multiple casings to prevent communication between the well and external features.  Are they drilling through an abandoned mine and "hazardous waters" at Deer Lakes Park?     
     
    The extra signing bonus is a PR thing.  A couple million now to make many millions down the road.  So what?   
     
    It is clear you have virtually no idea about anything related to how the drilling process and waste management at well sites work (or geology for that matter).  I deal with the waste management issues related to the industry on a daily basis and have a good handle on perception vs. reality.  And for the record, you are dead wrong with your assertions about me, because this well will be drilled in the township I live in and I personally do not stand to gain one penny if this well or any other well in the future is drilled. 
     
     
     
    #10
    Porktown
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 9945
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/09/04 16:37:05
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 16:49:45 (permalink)
    Esox_Hunter
     
    a) Anywhere between 15-40% of the frac water sent downhole is recovered as either flowback water or produced fluids.
    Water eventually makes it's way back to the surface.  I think this might be in Geology 101? 
     
    b) Some incidental water will be recovered during the production phase of a well.  Whatever water they recover during production goes to a condensate tank and is managed accordingly.  I'm not sure what your point is with this one.  Casings can extend 5,000-9,000' below ground level, regional groundwater levels are typically less than 100' below ground level.
    The casing goes on the vertical portion, NONE of the horizontal is encased.  Eventually making it's way to the surface.
     
    c) The vast majority of water recovered during fracking is sent for processing and recycled for future fracking at the moment.  When the water can no longer meeting the companies reuse standards it is disposed of in a deep injection well, typically in Ohio.  Solids generated during processing for recycling are landfilled.  Drill cuttings recovered are primarily landfilled.
    So, earthquakes in OH are a good thing?
     
    d)  DEP will not issue a well permit if the well conflicts with a coal mine or will cause environmental damage.  It is very rare that a well will penetrate an abandoned mine and it is avoided at all costs.  Regardless, wells are constructed with multiple casings to prevent communication between the well and external features.  Are they drilling through an abandoned mine and "hazardous waters" at Deer Lakes Park?
    See my previous response of concerns on this.     
     
    The extra signing bonus is a PR thing.  A couple million now to make many millions down the road.  So what?   
    Without seeing the contract, I can't imagine $7.7M was PR only.
     
    "I deal with the waste management issues related to the industry on a daily basis... And for the record, you are dead wrong with your assertions about me..."
    You are contridicting yourself in one statement.  You're paycheck is directly associated with the drilling industry. 



    #11
    Esox_Hunter
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2393
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/02 14:32:57
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 17:47:14 (permalink)
    So explain to me how the water comes to the surface during production (other than through the casing which we covered already).  Do you really think that frack water just bubbles to the surface all around the well pad?  Do you know what a confining layer is (geology 101)?  Do you have any evidence to suggest that frack water can migrate upwards through numerous confining layers for distances exceeding 6,000 vertical feet? 
     
    Once you understand this, you will understand why solid horizontal casings are not used (which would defeat the purpose of horizontal drilling anyways) 
     
    The $4.7 was a signing bonus based on total acreage, which is awarded to any landowner who enters into a lease agreement.  The remainder is PR money that is supposed to go towards all Allegheny County parks.  Again, so what?   
     
    And you are sorely mistaken about the source of my livelihood.  My paycheck has absolutely nothing to do with the drilling industry.  Whether the industry goes belly up tomorrow or 10,000 wells are drilled next week, I will have the same job and the same paycheck.  I doubt you'll get it, but people who know me understand what I mean.
     
    #12
    Porktown
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 9945
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/09/04 16:37:05
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/19 22:40:01 (permalink)
    Who ever said to the surface during production, I said 20 years from now.

    Confined aquafiers are still moving water, and all have some sort of discharge point. Which usually flows into a creek, river, lake, ect. Also confining layers aren't 100% water impermeable. The act of fracking has to further this along as well, adding soft spots for the water to go. Who knows what other chemical reactions are happening under the high pressure that deep, without knowing the ingredients. There seems to be pretty overwhelming proof of methane permeating through these multiple confining layers, what other gasses are being created that are also leaching through? Like said earlier, who knows without knowing what is in these brines, whether or not the water is filtered by the time it hits it's discharge point(s).

    I've read about drilling with propane, where the propane evaporates during the process, and left with only natural gas and methane. Sounds like a better process to me. Hopefully what you and the industry claim is correct, and we have nothing to worry about.

    Obviously the horizontal casing would defeat the purpose, but the gas industry top talking point is that they have reinforced wells. This is only about half of the well, if that. The rest of it is up to nature, and the water cycle.

    If it is as safe as yourself and the industry claims, then why are so many geologists and other scientist alarmed? I'm guessing the same climate change nuts?
    post edited by Porktown - 2014/03/19 22:45:02
    #13
    JEB
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 2248
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/10/27 01:06:36
    • Location: Western, Pa
    • Status: offline
    Re: Deer Lakes Drilling Proposal 2014/03/20 13:46:11 (permalink)
    I work in the business, we help the landowners , not the gas companies. The best advice I can say it to get educated on the subject or seek someone that is. Too many horror stories are read on line or in the newspapers, 95% of them are not true. The ones that are are due to the fact that the landowners signed bad leases, which is thier fault.  There are so many regulations now that it makes really hard for to do anything they shouldn't. If they do, they'll get caught. If anybody has questions, you can  PM me. There are both good and bad developers out there, know what the heck you are getting into before you sign anything. You have to protect your rights.
    Jason Benetti
    Project Manager
    NNRAB
    #14
    Jump to: