ESOS

Author
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3552
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
2013/01/21 19:45:11 (permalink)

ESOS

You folks following whats going on regarding the Eastern Sports and Outdoors Show in Harrisburg and their decision to ban tactical guns and gear? Maybe I missed it but didn't see any discussion here. The trickle of cancelling vendors has turned into a deluge. Not sure there will be any "celebrities" in attendance this year. Cabelas dropped the big sponsorship and the list of cancellation is growing by the minute.

My rifle is a black rifle
#1

27 Replies Related Threads

    akitadog
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 977
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2007/01/23 08:14:53
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/21 20:21:51 (permalink)
    sorry, i didnt see this. i just posted the same thing under anything discussion. ya its getten crazy. all the top pro's backed out including 50 or more venders.
    #2
    Catchabigone
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 509
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2007/02/13 20:20:21
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/21 21:07:10 (permalink)
    from The Morning Call Newspaper
    Cabela's boycotting Eastern Sports and Outdoor Show over controversy
    Here are the exhibitors who have backed out of the Eastern Sports and Outdoor Show:
    • Appalachian Big Game TV
    • Arrowhead Outdoors
    • Athens Archery
    • Atlantic Tactical
    • Blitz TV
    • The Bear Whisperer
    • Boondock Outdoors
    • BowHunter Planet
    • Bowhunting.com
    • CanCooker
    • Cabela's
    • Cross Canyon Arms
    • Cutting Edge Bullets
    • Dead Ringer
    • Direct Action Tactical Firearms
    • Domari Nolo Defense Consulting
    • Dominator 365
    • DuckWater Boats
    • Farmland Trophies Outfitting
    • Firearms Industry Consulting Group
    • FoxPro Game Calls
    • Full Circle Outdoors
    • Gut-N-Tag
    • Heartland Whitetails
    • HookHunt
    • Hunters and Guides Connection
    • Hunter Safety Systems
    • Keystone Country Store
    • King of the Mountain Inc.
    • Kinsey's Outdoors
    • KodaBow
    • Lancaster Archery Supply
    • Midwest Whitetail Adventures
    • Dominance is Everything Hunting System
    • Mountain Dog Chews
    • Nature Blinds
    • Northern Hideaway Outfitters
    • Open Season TV
    • Outdoor Edge Knives
    • Pipeline Ridge Hunting Preserve
    • Primal Urge Outdoors
    • Spook Spann
    • Sportsmen of North America TV
    • Stay Ready Inc.
    • Stokerized Stabilizers
    • TNT Archery
    • Trijicon Inc.
    • Trop Gun Shop
    • The Warmbag
    • Whitetail Bosses
    • Whitetail Heaven Outdoors
    • Wired Outdoors
    • Woodcock Limited of PA
    • Wyvern Creations
    • X-Stand Treestands
    • Zook Cabins
    • 2 Million Bullets


     
    post edited by Catchabigone - 2013/01/21 21:11:58

    Look to the heavens and thank God everyday that hunting is such a grand part of our lives.
    Ted Nugent



     
    #3
    S-10
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5185
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/21 21:18:15 (permalink)
    The only chance we have of winning this one is if we all do stick together. Kudos to Cabela's and the others. Maybe it will give any other shows thinking about doing the same thing cause to rethink their position. Money talks.  DPMS-- I thought we would hear more comments from you on the black rifles.
    #4
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/22 06:47:08 (permalink)
    The list is almost three times what was posted now. Every celebrity that was scheduled to attend has pulled out. Orgs are starting to pull out as well including them PFSC and the PA Taxidermy Association.

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #5
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/22 06:49:37 (permalink)
    S-10,

    Don't get me started on the black rifles, lol. I will just say that I will not be attending any show where tactical guns, accessories or gear is banned.

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #6
    Big Tuna
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 1882
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/02/04 16:31:51
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/22 17:02:24 (permalink)
    I'm not going, Tiffs not going to be there!
    #7
    DarDys
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 4949
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
    • Location: Duncansville, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/22 19:10:04 (permalink)
    I wonder if the show's owner will refund space fees to those that stay in due to what is probably going to be a drastic decrease in attendance.

    The poster formally known as Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
    #8
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/23 18:23:26 (permalink)
    Dars,
     
    Supposedly, no refunds to those that pre purchased tickets and no refunds to those that reserved space. There is word of a class action suit being filed against Reed Expo since they made this change after folks either bought tickets or reserved space.
     
    Boat vendors are pulling as well. One had 6500 feet of floor space reserved.  There were 1200 exibitors scheduled to be there. I think we are getting close to several hundred that have canc.
     
    All of the celebs and most of the orgs have cancelled. United Bowhunters voting this weekend. PFSC has pulled as has QDMA and the RMEF. 
     
     

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #9
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/23 18:30:43 (permalink)
    This is the most updated list of cancels I could find.
     
    2 Million Bullets
    24/7 Hunting TV
    Absaroke-Beartooth Outfitters
    Alaska’s Ravencroft Lodge
    Alaskan Outdoors TV
    Ambush Firearms
    American Whitetails of PA
    Antler Insanity
    Apex Tactical
    Appalachian Big Game TV
    Archery Tag
    Arrowhead Outdoors
    Artistic Visions Wildlife Studio
    Athens Archery
    Atlantic Tactical
    Atsko, Inc. / Sno-Seal Inc.
    Avian X Decoys
    Backwoods Whitetails Outfitters
    Bad Boy Inc.
    Bad Dog Accessories
    Banded Calls
    Bangin Redhedz Turkey Gear
    Bear Archery
    Beavertail Products
    Big Game Butter
    Blitz TV
    Body Guard 360
    Bohning Archery
    Boulder Basin Outfitters
    Boondock Outdoors
    Bow Hunter’s Den
    Bow Life, LLC
    Bramco / Golden Valley Enterprises
    Briley Outfitters
    Buck Bomb
    Burt Coyote Lumenok
    C&D Outfitters
    Cabela’s
    Camo Addiction
    Campbell Cameras
    CanCooker
    Central Penn Sporting Clays & Game Preserve
    Chaparral Hunting Adventures
    Cochrane River Outfitters
    Cody Turkey Calls
    Cold Steel Knives
    Combative Edge
    Continental Divide Outfitters
    Cross Canyon Arms
    Cutting Edge Bullets
    Darkwoods Blind
    DCVR
    Dead Ringer
    Deer and Deer Hunting.com
    Direct Action Tactical Firearms
    Dirty Buck Soap and Scents
    Dirty Dog Outdoors
    Domari Nolo Defense Consulting
    Dominance is Everything Hunting System
    Dominator 365
    Dokken Oakridge Kennels
    Down N Dirty Outdoors
    Drakes Migration Nation
    Driven TV
    Droptine Outfitters
    DuckWater Boats
    Dunn Knives
    Eastern Chapter Wild Sheep Foundation
    Eastern Outdoors
    Easton Bow Hunting
    Excalibur Crossbow US, Inc
    Farmland Trophies Outfitting
    Fear No Evil
    Field Proven Calls
    Firearms Industry Consulting Group
    Firenock
    Fish Outdoor Properties
    Flatline Productions
    Flyway Custom Sales
    Foiles Migrators, Inc
    Forbes Turkey Calls
    FOXPRO High Performance Game Calls
    Full Circle Outdoors
    Furtakers TV
    GhillieSuits.com
    Ghost River Outfitters – Alberta
    Goey Hunting Calls
    Gone Wild Outdoors
    Goodling Rifles
    Grand-Safari.com – South Africa/Tanzania/Cameroon
    Gut N Tag, LLC
    Hart Rifles
    H.S. Specialities
    Heartland Whitetails
    Herd Guard
    Hevi-Shot
    High Lonesome Outfitters
    HookHunt
    Hoyt Archery Inc
    Honey Creek Outfitters
    Hunter Safety Systems
    Hunter Specialties w/ Rick White
    Hunters and Guides Connection
    Hunters Comfort, LLC
    Hunter’s Specialties
    Huntin’ Is Good! TV
    IceHole Coolers
    International Bowhunting Organization
    Iron Kin Hunt Club
    IScope
    J & M Traditions
    Katahdin’s Shadow Outfitters
    Keystone Country Store
    Keystone Elk Country Alliance
    King of the Mountain Inc.
    Kinsey’s Outdoors
    Kodabow
    Lac Suzie Outfitter
    Lancaster Archery Supply
    Lanco Tactical
    Leupold & Stevens Inc.
    Lone Oak Retreivers
    Major League Bowhunter
    Masterpiece Outdoors, Inc.
    Men in Treestands Productions
    Midwest Whitetail Adventures
    Mindful of Nature LLC
    Montana Mountain West Outfitters
    Montana Whitetails
    Mountain Dog Chews
    Mountain Hollow Game Calls
    Muddy Outdoors
    Muskie Moose, LLC
    NasHunt Outdoors
    National Wild Turkey Federation
    Nature Blinds, LLC
    NasHunt Outdoors
    National Rifle Association
    Northern Hideaway Outfitters
    Northern Outdoor Lodge
    Northern Wilderness Outfitters
    North Mountain Pepper Works
    O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc.
    Old Goat Outdoors
    Open Season TV
    Outdoor Channel Outfitters
    Outdoor Edge Knives
    Outdoor Specialist Group
    Outdoorsnative.com
    Ozonics Hunting
    PA Federation of Sportsmen’s Clubs
    PA Taxidermist Association, Inc
    Pat Strawser Custom Calls
    Pennsylvania Trappers Assoc.
    Perry’s No Peep Archery Sights
    Pipeline Ridge Hunting Preserve
    Predator Hunting Mounts
    Primal Urge Outdoors
    Primos Hunting Calls
    Proc’s Huntin Buddy
    PSE Archery
    QDMA (PA Chapter)
    Radical Hunter
    Ranew’s Outdoor Equipment
    Red Star Arms
    Reflections Of The Wild
    Revolution Hunting
    Rhino Outdoors
    Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
    Rougeaux Taxidermy
    Rough Country Outfitters
    Ruger Firearms
    Rydon Corporation
    S & W Outfitter
    Savco LLC
    Sean Mann Outdoors
    SecureIt Tactical
    Shootingthex.com
    SK Knives
    Skull Shine
    Smith and Wesson
    Southern Game Calls
    Southwest Outdoors / Cherry Creek Lodge
    Spook Span
    SportEAR
    Sportsmen of North America TV
    Starkey Hollow Whitetails
    State Line Bone Mine
    Staudt’s Gun Shop
    Stay Ready Inc
    Stokerized Stabilizers
    Strother Archery
    Summit County Outfitters
    Summit Treestands
    Susquehanna River Waterfowlers Assoc
    Table Mountain Outfitters
    Team Overkill
    Team Urban Nocks
    Ten Point Crossbows
    The Bear Whisperer
    The Outdoor Loop
    The Sportsman’s Shop
    The Warmbag
    ThermaCell
    Thompson Center Arms
    Timberline Outfitters
    TNT Archery
    Tough Country
    Trijicon, Inc
    Triple Mag TV
    Trop Gun Shop
    Turnbull Manufacturing
    U Slide Bow Hunter
    Ultimate Camo
    Umax Outdoors
    Upper Canyon Outfitters
    Wallaston Lake Lodge
    Tex Mex Outdoors
    The Outdoors Channel
    The Warmbag
    Watson Air Lock
    Watt’s Truck Center
    Whitetail Adrenanline
    Whitetail Bosses
    Whitetail Freaks
    Whitetail Heaven Outdoors
    Whitewolfsurvivalsupply.com
    Wilburn Outdoors / Millennium Tree Stands
    Wildlife Studios Premiere Taxidermy
    Wired Outdoors
    Woodcock Limited of Pennsylvania
    X-Stand Treestands
    Zink Calls
    Zook Cabins



    Speaker / Celebrites Pulled Out (37)
    Abner Druckenmiller – Furtakers TV
    Angie & Scott Denny – THE LIFE at Table Mountain
    Blaine Anthony, The Bear Whisperer
    Bob Folkrod
    Bob Mercier
    Brad Farris – Primos
    Buck Buckannon
    Chris Brackett
    Eddie Salter
    Fred Eichler – Fulldraw Outfitters
    Greg Zipadelli
    Hal Shaffer
    Jamie Gray
    Jay Gregory
    J Paul Jackson – Drakes Migration nation
    Jim and Eva Shockey
    Jimmy Primos – Primos
    Josh Miller – SportDOG
    Kevin Knighton
    Kyle Wieter
    Larry Weishuhn
    Lee & Tiffany Lakosky “The Crush“
    Marc Anthony – Speaker / Pro Hunter
    Mark Night
    Matt Morett
    Max Row
    Michael Lee
    Mike Stroff – Savage Outdoors TV
    Montana Whitetails
    Nicole Jones
    Pat Reeves
    Ralph & Vicki Cianciarulo – Archers Choice
    Sean Mann
    Stan Potts
    Bone Collector
    Tom Dokken
    Trent Cole
    Woody Sullivan


    Other Boycott Supporters (47)
    Advantage Taxidermy Studio Inc
    American Tactical Imports
    Anything About Guns
    Backwoods Life
    Bloodline With Alex Ruthledge
    Blue Rock Outfitters
    Bowfreakz.com
    Bowhunting.com
    Bowhunter Planet
    Bowhunting Addiction TV
    Broken Arrow Wilderness
    Bowhunters TV
    Chasing Trophy Whitetails
    Citizens for a Responsibly Armed Society
    Crossbow Nation
    Dave’s House of Hair, Harrisburg PA
    Dead Dog Walkin’ TV
    Driven TV
    Drop Zone TV
    Eddie Salter
    Family Traditions TV
    Gene & Barry Wensel
    Haley Heath
    Hank Parker
    Hard Core Hunting TV
    Horton Crossbows
    Hunt Wicked Close TV
    Idaho Center of Emergency Medical Training
    Just Kill’n Time TV
    Keystone Gun Sales
    Mark & Beau Rodgers – Real Deal Outdoors
    Mosquito Creek Outdoors, FL
    NebraskaOutfitter.com
    Needleman & Pisano
    Off Grid Survival
    OrgaPro Ltd.
    Racing To Hunt TV
    Roger Raglin
    Shelly & Tara Seiler – Working for Whitetails TV
    Stanley Scruggs Hunting Products
    Team Bone Thugs
    The Banded Nation TV
    The Best Of The West TV
    The Fowl Life TV
    The Kronik Hunter and staff
    The Pennsylvania Crossbow Federation
    The Resistence TV
    Wyvern Creations

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #10
    Claypool313
    Expert Angler
    • Total Posts : 449
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2007/07/28 15:17:11
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/23 19:15:45 (permalink)
    Good for them.  Solidarity.  Glad to see some pretty big names on this list.
    #11
    S-10
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5185
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/23 19:51:39 (permalink)
    The National Shooting Sports Foundation is still urging folks to attend. They appear to be a bit too close to Reed. Probably due to their partnership on the SHOT show. I just sent them an E-mail suggesting they smell the coffee. Quite simple if anyone else wants to do the same-- NSSF--contact --simple message.
    #12
    wayne c
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3473
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/23 21:53:22 (permalink)
    I see one name glaringly missing from that list.
     
    The Pa Game Commission.


    #13
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/24 06:28:42 (permalink)
    the PGC,

    There is building pressure on them to pull. I wish they would have pulled already, though.

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #14
    S-10
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5185
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/24 07:45:02 (permalink)
    They have been courting the liberals and non-hunting public for the last decade or more.  It's going to be tough for them to change now.
    #15
    wayne c
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3473
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/24 10:26:31 (permalink)
    Thats bull!
     
    Government "entitities" do take sides, or legislators would never vote on anything.  Nor would the president introduce policy...   Governor...  etc...    And no, it is not always based on the will of the people unfortunately. 
     
    And those in no way compare to a game management agency.   Pgc is in charge of hunting in this state, not to mention quite a few shooting ranges and therefore automatically should be considered "pro-gun" and there is a problem with that expectation???   To wish them to be "neutral" on gun control issues is nothing short of asinine, especially when the entire friggin outdoor community from across the country is shunning the event!   We aren't talking about walking around screaming and thumping a copy of nra today...   We are simply talking about standing up for what it right by not attending an event.    Im sure it wouldnt be the first event they declined to appear at.  
     
    Todays PGC is a total joke, and they are showing it once again.   And while I wouldnt expect them to be any deciding factor on these issues, it would be important towards making somewhat of a statement to the hunters of the state which they continuously alienate at every chance given.    
     
    I would understand if dcnr or pfbc didnt pull out.   Their mission is totally irrelevant to the topic.   But pgc is too close to the issue for their stance to be ignored. 
     
    Agree or disagree, you are welcome to your opinion.    Theres mine.
    post edited by wayne c - 2013/01/24 10:48:47


    #16
    Skip16503
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 4028
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2001/04/04 23:06:24
    • Location: Erie Pa
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/24 11:38:57 (permalink)
    Show has been postponed

     



    #17
    S-10
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5185
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/24 12:23:04 (permalink)
    I e-mailed the PGC BOC president Martone and got an answer back. They are going to address the issue at the Jan-29 quarterly meeting.
    #18
    wayne c
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3473
    • Reward points: 0
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/24 13:50:55 (permalink)
    Thats interesting.   I thought that wouldve generally been an executive directors decision.   I could be mistaken, but I didn't think that the commissioners voted on every decision made for pgc  to appear or not appear at an event?
     
     
     
    post edited by wayne c - 2013/01/24 13:57:14


    #19
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/24 18:10:04 (permalink)
    Doesn't much matter as the show is pretty much done forever. At least with Reed running the show.

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #20
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/25 13:42:39 (permalink)
    Anyone see the dimwitted Mayor Thompson's response after the show was postponed? Many rumors circulating that she was behind Reed's banning of tactical guns and gear from the show.
     
    Crime is on the rise in her streets and neighborhoods and she went on another gun tirade in her response, ignoring the real reasons why crime is increasing in Harrisburg.
     
    Pathetic.

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #21
    S-10
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5185
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/25 14:06:18 (permalink)
    I would imagine she is really feeling the heat from the business community over losing the show if that is the case. 44 million loss just in hotel and restaurant business is a big deal.
    I think she had just launched her re-election campaign a few days before the sports show problem came to light.  Could be an interesting spring and summer for her if it is proven she was behind the ban.  They are estimating a 80 million total loss for the city and surrounding area due to the postponement. This for a city already on the verge of bankruptcy.  She is a total supporter of Obama and the gun laws.
    post edited by S-10 - 2013/01/25 18:33:24
    #22
    retired guy
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3107
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2010/08/26 15:49:55
    • Location: ct-vacation place in Richland
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/27 17:38:22 (permalink)
    Been stayin outa this one but  a point that gotta be made- O took most every CITY in the US hands down . Soooo somebody following his philosophy will likely be some kinda Hero come election time--- in the City.( and -as we saw in Nov. thats where the votes are)
    post edited by retired guy - 2013/01/27 22:12:11
    #23
    DarDys
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 4949
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
    • Location: Duncansville, PA
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/28 05:48:55 (permalink)
    Now the vendors need to sue Reed for the revenues that they lost by there being no show.

    The poster formally known as Duncsdad

    Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
    #24
    dpms
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3552
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/28 06:35:58 (permalink)
    there is talk of a class action suit be explored.

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #25
    S-10
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 5185
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2005/01/21 21:22:55
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/28 07:20:29 (permalink)
    Here is an interesting tidbit------according to Dianne Feinstein when she unveiled her new assault weapons ban there have been 350 deaths as a result of the firearms she wants to ban since 2004 and we should be outraged.   That is an average of 43 per year nationwide.  There is a average of 49 deaths from lightening strikes each year.
     
    Yep, banning those firearms is really going to fix things.
    #26
    ray126
    Avid Angler
    • Total Posts : 238
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2008/10/10 23:16:44
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/28 09:04:19 (permalink)
    We should ban lightening.
    #27
    retired guy
    Pro Angler
    • Total Posts : 3107
    • Reward points: 0
    • Joined: 2010/08/26 15:49:55
    • Location: ct-vacation place in Richland
    • Status: offline
    Re:ESOS 2013/01/28 10:11:38 (permalink)
     It should be noted they are regularly using the ' even one life saved' line thus trying to negate any references to actual logical stats.
       Of course it sells well with those already on the Anti wagon and makes the effort at not paying any attention whatsoever to common sense arguments.
        Notice they havent tried to save any kids with a seat belt on school buses law that would likely gain wide support.
        Thats the kind of thing that clearly separates them from the herd and points directly to ANTI sentiments being the single foremost issue here.
     ( still waiting for the M/E report on weapon used in CT- gettin hard to decipher the rumors from reality at this point)
     If it was NOT the 223 it will make little difference- they will  hypocritically get right past that fact.
    post edited by retired guy - 2013/01/28 10:14:24
    #28
    Jump to: